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Messages - Kirian

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8101
Second of all, you took a game from a while ago (I haven't played a goons game in a long time)and reviewed it.

edit: I also was playing my first 10-20 games when I played that goons game where I first encountered goons.

The game I used was played on 04 July, only a bit over a day before I posted this.  It was somewhere around your 100th game (via CR.com).

Quote
Last but not least, you didn't even ask me for permission before posting it here to be reviewed.

Replies 7, 10, 11, 17, 18 in this thread, which I also linked on the first line of this thread.

----

That said, if you'd like me to remove my analysis, I will.

8102
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110630-220127-339ea951.html

Well, that's easy.  As soon as your opponent picked up a second Mountebank, you should have, but that's relatively minor.  The first time he hit you with KC/Mountebank was probably gg, and if it wasn't then certainly the second time was.  I think I'd have resigned at that point.

8103
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« on: July 06, 2011, 09:44:03 pm »
I swear, I'm going to start making a list of people who just plain don't talk during a game.  At least acknowledge you're not a damned robot!

8104
Oh, and I didn't realized that none of the players posted the log. I think that is a different situation, I thought someone posted one of his games and let it discuss. But as an outsider just take a game and point out the failures of others, I don't know if I like this. So there I'm with Superdad.

And this is why i linked the thread with the original request (from ^_^_^_^ and seconded by Eagle) along with ^_^_^_^'s permission to dredge up a game of his.  I offered to set up a thread for these sorts of things.

8105
Our first analysis is of this game, between ^_^_^_^, who I'll call foureyes because it's a lot easier to type, and userynamery.  The tableau is:

Chapel, Native Village, Embargo, Warehouse, Navigator, Baron, Library, Merchant Ship, Wharf, Goons.

Executive Summary:  Usery gets exceptionally lucky, drawing Baron-SCCE on both T3 and T5, and heads straight into Goons; foureyes' Chapel strategy goes south because of terminal clashes.

Openings:  foureyes opens Chapel/Baron; usery opens Silver/Baron.

Chapel and Baron are incompatible cards.  One of the objects of Chapel is to get rid of one's Estates; chances are you'll only use that Baron once, maybe twice, before it becomes a liability--and if you draw the two together, Baron is a huge liability.

TurnUseryFoureyes
38->Goons, NV3->Silver
43->SilverChapel: E, 3C
58->Province6->Goons

Usery gets ridiculously lucky, drawing Baron-SCCE not once, but twice in Turns 3 and 5.  The first he plays well; the second he plays incredibly poorly.  While a Province on T5 looks great on paper, it really clogs one's deck.  Another Goons/NV would have been a better play there.  Meanwhile, foureyes draws his Chapel on both T4 and T5--and on the latter it clashes with the Baron.  Had the Baron been a Silver instead (standard Chapel/Silver opening), this hand would have trashed two more cards and gained another Silver.  Instead, he buys Goons with the Baron.  Instead of having trashed 6 cards at this point, he's trashed 4; this is a huge difference, though the Goons will help offset that.

TurnUseryFoureyes
65->Wharf8->Gold, NV
7Goons; 4->Embargo, NVGoons, 4->NV, NV
84->SilverChapel: C; 3->Warehouse

Foureyes' Chapel clashes again, this time with his Goons on T7.  On T8 he finally trashes one more card... but does not trash the Estate in hand, presumably saving it for his Baron.

Now, let's step back a bit and assume foureyes had bought Silvers instead of other terminals.  His T5, instead of Baron-Chapel-CCE, would have been Chapel-SCCE.  Instead of buying Goons, he trashes CCE and buys NV.  T6 he draws SSCCE->Goons... and reshuffles an extra time!  The only thing in his discard is Chapel/NV.

Foureyes' deck at T6:  Chapel, Baron, NV, Goons, GSCCCCEE (12 cards, av. value 11/12 plus Baron chance, av. hand value 4.5)
Thinned deck at T6:  Chapel, NV, Goons, SSCCE (8 cards, av. value 8/8, av. hand value 5)
Opponent:  Baron, Goons, NV, Wharf, SSCCCCCCC, PEEE (17 cards, av. value 13/17 plus small Baron chance; av. hand size 6 [Wharf] for av. hand value 4.6)

The small picture is that the thinned deck has more buying power.  The bigger picture is that, with judicious use of NV, the thinned deck will be playing Goons almost every turn.  After a few more buys of NV, Goons, and Wharves, the deck will be playing more than one Goons most turns.  The opponent will be pinned by the Goons, though with Wharf to mitigate it.

Even with the actual deck, this will be a close game; in fact at time of resignation the players were in a dead heat, so I'm not sure if the resignation was intentional.  But usery's deck is better by T20, and unless foureyes could end the game on a lucky turn, he's going to fall farther behind.

----

There are plenty of mistakes after T8, though, on both player's sides:

Using the Baron to gain Estates is almost always a losing proposition.  You have to desperately need that extra buy to make it worthwhile.

Buying Coppers with Goons is a great idea... in the endgame.  But unless you're more than halfway through, which you aren't by T11 (foureyes) or T13 (usery), those Copper buys aren't worth even 2 VP.  One could argue they might be worth 3 VP.

Foureyes' T16 3-Estate buy was a definite turning point.  Those 6 VP were not nearly worth the extra crap in your deck.  Another Goons, another Gold, anything but 3 Estates.  Now, later in the game, if you were going to head to a 3-pile ending, that could have been great!  But not in the midgame.

Embargoing the Coppers (usery at T19) is an interesting touch but one that hurts both players pretty equally... and probably usery worse, as he has more Goons by that point, he just hasn't been getting pairs--foureyes has, thanks to Warehouses (which wouldn't have been necessary in a thinner deck...)

----

Any other comments from the crowd?

8106
[As suggested/requested in this post.]

All of the analyses posted on the Dominion Strategy blog are of high-level games, where the players are playing different strategies but nearly-perfect play.  Which is as it should be; the best way to learn is to look at the best players.

Nonetheless, novices playing their own games often end up wondering:  What did I do wrong?  That strategy should have worked, so did I screw up along the way?  Or was the other guy just lucky?

The intent of this thread is for novices to post a game where they did poorly for whatever reason, and for someone more knowledgeable to analyze the game and help the novice understand what they did wrong.  So, post away!

8107
Yes in star craft there is a site with a strategy section dedicated to 1) guides and 2) questions for what did I do wrong. So far I've been getting help through PMs only.

I'll start the thread.  Do you mind if I use one of your games to start off?

8108
I've been stuck at 0. How do I get to level 1? :(
I have some of my games that I know the links to if it would help me to possibly ask for others to look over my games here and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Well, I guess a question is:  do you want that done publicly?

It could certainly be useful to have a thread for "what did I do wrong?" sorts of questions, instructive for all new players.

8109
I think what Doug did with Isotropic is an incredible once-in-a-lifetime feat.  I've played a lot of electronic board game implementations, and Isotropic blows every other implementation I've ever played out of the water.

This is surprising.  I've seen some quite good Settlers implementations, and BSW's Power Grid implementation is very nice.  In both cases, however, there is a lot less going on in the game.  That, along with the wrapper, is what makes isotropic special.  BSW's matchmaking implementation is... I think "horrible" is not an unreasonable word to use.

Quote
The chance that RGG's programmers can duplicate this is vanishingly small.  I do not intend this as a slight against them, but as a compliment to Doug.  I am sure that RGG has hired talented and excellent programmers, but rrenaud is the most talented programmer I know personally and by his own admission he is not nearly smart enough to have been able to code Isotropic.

I want to preface what I'm about to say with this:  isotropic is f*cking awesome.  There is no doubt that Doug should get huge kudos for it.

That said, I'm going to take issue with what theory says here.  Rrenaud may be the best programmer you personally know, but isotropic is simpler than, say, this forum software--the major difference being the real-time aspect.  Consider Narbacular Drop, or Minecraft, or Spacechem, or Nethack, or any number of other amazing games developed on a shoestring or zero budget, written by one programmer or a small team.  All of these are more complex than isotropic, ignoring art; Nethack is an order of magnitude more complex; Minecraft, ignoring the "art," is easily 2 orders of magnitude more complex.

Hell, Trade Wars has more complexity than Dominion, and it wasn't exactly a pinnacle of gaming... in 1990.

(I can confidently say I could program a solitaire only Dominion application in PHP.  Alas, PHP doesn't really support real-time interaction except via forced reload.  That said, it would take all of my free time for the next six months.  I'd imagine that for a programmer experienced with the real-time aspect [say, for instance, dougz], that the wrapper for the game [that is, real-time interaction, chat, matchmaking] would add about 50% more time.)

And we haven't even discussed what people do with a budget.  Consider Starcraft.  Consider WOW.  Consider Civilization.

Again, no offense at all to Doug, here.  On no budget, in his free time, he's created an excellent implementation of isotropic that I and others would be willing to pay for.  That is a damned awesome accomplishment.  He deserves praise both for writing it and for making it free...

Quote
I just didn't want anyone to assume (not that anyone is) that software as good as Isotropic is easily reproduced.

...but suggesting isotropic is the best software one could write for Dominion is a bit like suggesting that Uno is the best you can do with two decks of playing cards.

The question is not one of can these other programmers do better, but will they do it?  And that is up to RGG.  What budget did they set up?  If it was less than $10k then I'd expect something worse than isotropic; more than half the programming time will go toward implementing cross-platform multiplayer, and 100 man-hours of programming won't get you isotropic.  Did they (I hope) offer profit-sharing?  Then you bet your butt the programmers are watching this thread, and looking at isotropic's features, especially since some of the features mentioned (like game logs) should be incredibly easy to implement compared to other things needed.

The major problem is that we were working off Donald's February post saying the software would ship with only Base and Intrigue.  I'll set that assumption aside for now.  I hope, hope, hope that RGG and the software developers will wait the extra two weeks to release rather than releasing with a third of the cards.  I think that Donald will take this thread to Jay and the programmers and suggest that might be a really good idea.

8110
Anyway, I think all this concerns come from not knowing what will happen. There are some nice features of isotropic that are likely not to enter a commercial version, starting from the logs (impling all of the councilroom analytics), possibly the leaderboard, and worst of all at least temporarily not all cards.

And as long as there is no communications from the developers with the community, it will discuss its fears. Does one even know who developes the game?

This is a quite excellent point.  We're all sitting here speculating based on (reasonable, I think) fears.  All we know is that the program is coming, it likely will ship missing cards, and isotropic will disappear in a similar timeframe.  (And from a business standpoint, Donald and guided are right; isotropic would have to disappear. Bringing up IP issues is ridiculous.)  This is the sum of what we have to go on, and only the first data point is favorable (i.e. that it's coming).

I hope that RGG will do something to allay those fears.

As to the idea that a flashy alternative will attract a significantly larger playerbase:  I'm skeptical.  Most people who would be interested in playing Dominion heavily already watch the Dominion discussions on BGG; therefore they know of isotropic.  Not too many of them are going to be put off by isotropic's rudimentary interface.  RGG's real target market is, well, on isotropic.  And on this forum.

Agreed with WanderingWinder on costs--either an upfront then a cheap yearly fee, or a higher yearly fee.  (I would actually recommend a very small monthly fee instead to attempt to attract business outside the diehards.  You could easily get people hooked with a 10-day trial and $2 a month... but an upfront $30 might be off-putting.)

But hey... I don't work for RGG, nor do I work in marketing, PR, or programming.  I just hope Jay will listen.

Side note to Donald:  I'm glad you've engaged us here, but I also know you're not making a lot of these decisions, likely including what information you're even allowed to give us.  I therefore hope you're not taking any of this as a personal affront--you're the designer, not the programmer or the company.  We all love the game itself.

8111
Guided:  I'm basing my assumptions on the comments I quoted.  And I'm not angry, I'm just concerned that they will turn out true.  It would be sad.

Donald:  Your pizza analogy is interesting, but it leaves out a couple of things:

(1) If the pizza had been free but had no olives, I wouldn't have eaten it.  I didn't state that, but I stopped playing Dominion on BSW when the expansions were only partly-supported.
(2) I'd gladly buy the pizza that's currently available now for free.  If you told me RGG was buying out isotropic, and it would cost me $20 to access it, I'd pull out my credit card.

I guess a better way of phrasing things is:  Why is RGG re-inventing the wheel?

As far as the posts on copyright issues:  I don't like copyright runarounds either.  I even questioned (at BGG) whether isotropic should have the Cornucopia cards up before release... until you told me that in fact it was with RGG's blessing.  IP piracy is theft no matter which way one slices it.

8112
Sounds like RGG is planning to put out a commercial online Dominion version at some point, they've already told Doug, and he's agreed to take down isotropic once it's released.
Yes.

Obv. the commercial version will support all of the expansions as soon as it can. And it will be for multiple platforms.

(Emphasis mine)

So, let me preface that while I'm quoting Donald here, I know the decisions on this are going to end up getting made by Jay.  With that said:

RGG is planning to release it with only some of the cards?  Really?  The individual cards should be easier to program relative to the main software package.  This strikes me as a... shockingly bad move from a consumer's perspective.  RGG is basically saying:

"We've tacitly endorsed product A for some time, using it as our test-bed even.  Now we're releasing fully-endorsed product B, which is significantly inferior, and we're politely asking product A to disappear.  But we promise product B will be just as good, maybe even better!  Just, you know, not right now.  Eventually."

How many other features will be missing from the new program?  Game logs?  Ladder play?  It's not clear to me if DougZ is doing the programming for RGG or not; if he is, then I'm not quite as worried, but losing 80 cards from the selection will be... really sad.

WOTC did this with their D&D4E software package; the fallout was epic.  (I won't buy WOTC products again.)  Blizzard lost a ton of customers when they announced things they were removing from Starcraft II that were ridiculous to remove from the original Starcraft.  I don't want to see similar things happen to RGG here.

Now, I know the situation is different here; no one is paying to play on isotropic, RGG isn't making any money from it, and if they weren't friendly with DougZ they could easily have it C&D'd.  I guess what I'm saying is, I'd rather pay to play on the current software than play inferior software for free.  I certainly wouldn't purchase inferior software; I'll simply go back to playing F2F more often, and reconsider buying future expansions.  RGG would be much better off waiting a couple extra months to have their program fully-functional than to risk alienating fans buy releasing an inferior product.

8113
I think a key point in any discussion of potential new/modified isotropic features is that isotropic is a lame duck program and Doug is keenly aware of this. If there are problems with the commercial program then who knows, maybe the next set will come out on isotropic, but you know, one day, the lights will go out, and any feature Doug programmed for you will be gone for good.

Hrm, now this... this I did not know.

8114
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Places with Dominion card names
« on: June 27, 2011, 09:22:48 pm »
Three cards in the title was almost easy.  Given we (used to) have National City Bank here in my town, I figured I'd throw "City Bank" into Google.  Here we go:

http://bridgecitybank.com/
http://www.gardencitystatebank.com/

8115
My ISP works very well with continuously-on connections, but has a nasty habit of closing connections that don't get used.  If my opponent thinks too long I might get my connection closed and I have absolutely no way to tell besides waiting.

A second browser tab with this site open?  The isotropic tab will flash when it needs input from you, on your turn or theirs.

Run Pandora in another tab?  You can even turn the volume to zero if you don't actually want music, but you'll still be downloading.

Get a better ISP?

8116
General Discussion / Re: Math Nerds...
« on: June 27, 2011, 01:14:28 am »
I used to give mathematical dance lessons. The square dance, the rhumbus, the cotango... And I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.


Where, oh where is the thumbs-up button?

--------

All the math nerds should, if you haven't already, check out Vi Hart's videos.

8117
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Isotropic Point Counter
« on: June 26, 2011, 07:18:21 pm »
I think that might be too difficult to parse.  I don't think the auto-matcher is spending huge amounts of time deciding who to pair with whom; I think it's simply grabbing the first two people in line who aren't on opposite ends, and by default not turning on the counter (if both players don't care).

Do you match a prefer with a prohibit?  If you have 500 people in queue and are willing to sort them by preferences and level, then sure.  But when you have 5 people in the lobby, the auto-matcher doesn't need that sort of subtlety. :)

8118
Game Reports / Re: Trading Post/- or Vault/-
« on: June 25, 2011, 09:35:58 pm »
Your opinion lies in stark contrast to practical reality, I'm afraid ;)

http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=trading%20post%2Cvault%2Cupgrade%2Cmountebank%2Cwitch

Trading Post is in the top tier of power openers, right up there with Witch and Mountebank. Upgrade and Vault are not remotely in the same league. TP is a unique card in that it's elite as an opener, merely good at turn 3/4, and pretty much crap after that.

Bah, you with your math, and statistics, and facts!  I reject your reality... and substitute my own!

That graph is quite interesting, though.  It's funny that TP falls below Upgrade on 3 and Vault on 4.

8119
Game Reports / Re: Trading Post/- or Vault/-
« on: June 25, 2011, 03:34:05 pm »
IMO Upgrade > Trading Post under any circumstance.  I'd actually have been tempted to go Upgrade/-.

8120
General Discussion / Re: Math Nerds...
« on: June 24, 2011, 06:29:04 pm »
Depends on how you define "math nerd."  Does "chemistry/physics teacher" count?

8121
Rules Questions / Re: Outpost + Possession interaction
« on: June 23, 2011, 11:01:38 pm »
I used to be confused about this too, but FWIW the issue is actually covered in the Alchemy rulebook's card FAQ for Possession.

In fact, about 25% of Alchemy's rulebook is for the Possession card.  No wonder people are confused by it.  I don't think I'd play it face-to-face just for those reasons.

8122
If you plan to buy a terminal 4, I dare say FV is better than Silver about 90% of the time.

If you're buying a solid non-terminal 4, like Caravan or Tournament, a terminal trasher like Steward or Masquerade may be slightly better than Silver.

8123
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 23, 2011, 02:13:47 am »
Well as long as we're being truly geeky:

Schrodinger's Cat
$3, Action-Treasure-Victory

Draw 3 cards, then discard those same cards.
On your turn, this card is worth both $2 and -$2.
At the end of the game, this card is worth both 2 VP and -2 VP.

Setup:  Place a number of Poison cards equal to the number of Curse cards into the supply.

Poison
$0, Action-Attack-Curse
-1 VP

Each other player gains a Poison card.
At the end of the game, flip one Poison card for each Schrodinger's Cat card you have.  If the card lands face-up, the Schrodinger's Cat card is worth positive VP; otherwise it is worth negative VP.  If you run out of Poison cards, the remaining Schrodinger's Cat cards are still worth both +2 VP and +2 VP.

8124
Simulation / Re: Dominion Simulator available for download!
« on: June 23, 2011, 01:49:15 am »
Something in this screams "genetic algorithm" but, well, good luck programming that.  I can envision the idea, but I think it would be a monumental task--of which one major problem would be one of "encoding" the genes for an algorithm.

...but deciding the order to play a lookout and a pearl diver is not simple.

I'm trying to imagine a situation in which I'd play Lookout first, but I can't think of one.

8125
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« on: June 21, 2011, 01:45:09 pm »
"You look like you're trying to win, and failing.  Would you like to resign?"



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