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Messages - ChaosRed

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51
I didn't say Pauper's feast was stronger, I just said it was a better combo enabler.  The perfect Goons deck wants a pauper, though a rush might stop it before it sets that up.  Chapel is stronger because it's faster.

Sorry I misunderstood your criticism.

Chapel is, as you say, much stronger for density. Pauper is a great card none the less.

What I was really trying to say is that I think I'll leave the +1$ on it for now, despite Tejayes' astute suggestion. The spreadsheet seemed to suggest that the +1$ didn't really factor in too much. It did at times, but less than I thought it would. And that Chapel is almost always the better buy for early-round trashing.

Moving on to other cards, I think whatever Pauper's faults are, the card worked well in testing and I can live with the fact its slightly overpowered, because I don't feel the power is broken. It helps the set's speed, which is something the set is designed to do.

I do however, GREATLY appreciate the feedback and comments, thanks for them!

52
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Alternate Newbie First Board?
« on: November 21, 2011, 02:15:32 pm »
Not to sound too dissonant to the spirit of the thread I hope, but I have to say that I love the original starting board. I think it was really well-crafted and is a really good entry into the game.

Overall, I think base set is a really elegant design, there's a lot of careful thought put into base set. It remains probably my favorite expansion, just because its simplicity makes it very elegant.





53
It's an outstanding idea Tejayes. Cheers. Putting the first 8 turns in a spreadsheet however, seems to reveal that even with the +1$, the Pauper is significantly slower than Chapel in a BM engine. Of course, later the Chapel is a pain, but in terms of creating density and a higher $-per card, Chapel pulls ahead quickly.

Again the key is, you don't have to keep buying it to achieve the density, and as such, in turns 5-8, you are almost guaranteed to get those last few troubles copper/estates to trash, leaving you with just silver/gold and a chapel.

54
Chapel was stronger and faster at achieving density. It becomes a clog in the later rounds, while Pauper doesn't. It rated extremely high to be sure.

Turn 5 Pauper looks stronger, for example, Chapel might have a 10 card 10$ breakout (1$ exactly per card), while Pauper might have 9 cards worth 10$ (1.1) But here's the thing, to get denser you HAVE to buy another Pauper. That slows you down a buy, while Chapel surges ahead. Think about it, if the goal is to remove all 3 Estates and up to 5 Copper, that requires 4 purchases of Pauper to achieve.

In the later rounds Chapel is a pain, but the set has cards to deal with that (numerous cards set cards "aside"). So in this set, the Chapel is more prolific. You know what's actually a superb thing to do is to buy the Pauper, in hopes that you can actually trash your Chapel. Get the Chapel to narrow your deck to the point where drawing the Pauper and the Chapel together is very likely, then Pauper the Chapel to have both cards eliminated. In games where density is more important than Curse-elimination, it's a really nice move that worked out really well in a game we played.

I think you might be right in that Pauper is a tad over-powered. It certainly rated that way. It would have rated even higher if it were not for the fact a lot of times, both players purchased it. In games where one player purchased it and the other didn't, it's win rate was staggering. So it is a very strong card. I think in most instances, Chapel is better, but let's face it Chapel shouldn't cost 2$, you could make an argument Chapel is worth 4$. So Pauper is probably worth more than 2$ as well.

I think I am going to live with that though, as the card enables fast games and launches you forward in turns 4-7, which produces an exciting game. If I were more honest with myself, I'd cost the card at 3$.

However, I really value your feedback, if you feel the set would be stronger with Pauper's cost adjusted or its abilities nerfed, I will consider it. All the advice I've gotten on this forum has been excellent, I'd be a fool not to listen to it.

55
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« on: November 21, 2011, 10:45:10 am »
Did you actually test this? As in, play enough games to produce a statistically significant win rate with / win rate without figure?

I know I keep preaching this, but testing is just so key. It is vital to refining any variant. rink's advice is platinum, but even he'd concede that all his advice has to be tested, there's just no substitute for it.

plastic, take our advice here with a grain of salt. Ultimately this is your creation, and ultimately the power-balance of the variant should reflect your own tastes and preference. It might seem we are overly critical or pedantic in our review of your work. Don't take that the wrong way.

I am an exception in that I don't know Dominion that well, but others here are quite well-versed in the game. Naturally, they are going to bring their great experience to bear in their analysis. I can tell you however, that when I heeded the advice they gave me, my set improved vastly. There is some validity to the "wisdom of crowds".

But don't take that as a sign we don't appreciate or admire your effort here, and ultimately if you feel strongly about a card's value/power then stick to your guns. But do test it out, nothing will prove your evaluation better than a strong set of test data.

I think you have a fascinating set of cards here.

56
PAUPER'S FEAST

GRADE:  A
RATING: 1.24 +/- 0.07
RATING POSITION: 3rd out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 4th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
This card has several combinations with a very high win-rate. I had a lot to choose from. This combo was just slightly ahead of the others in percentage points. The reasoning here is that both cards set you up nicely for turns 4-6, trimming your deck superbly for a nifty tight configuration. The Pauper's Feast gets out of the way, while the Excursion is a non-terminal cantrip, so it isn't really harmful after its done the main task of trashing your Estates.

ASSESSMENT:
We loved this card. It turns out, even a gimped Chapel for 2$ is still a great card. In this case, the "mini-chapel" goes away and puts +1$ on the stack for you. Chapel is still far superior, but this is a handy card that became a "must buy" in the later rounds of testing.

I hesitate to give it an "A" as it rated just a bit high and the second portion of the card was rarely used. It is probably more accurately rated as a "B".

Still, it's nice to have a strong, popular 2 in your set and this one fit well. It is not as strong as Chapel (we tested it against Chapel to make sure), but still provides a nice trashing effect. Paupers go away too, which is really nice. So the one issue with Chapel is they linger long after their utility has worn out. One weakness in Pauper is that it is lousy in dealing with Curses. You have to keep it around to get the hit and when you do, it goes away (and usually by then you have another Curse to trash).

This card was so well-liked I'd really be foolish to alter it. It was never really ridiculously broken, it was very popular and compared favorably to it's sister-card in the real base set (coming in just slightly weaker than the mighty Chapel).

We gave it an "A" because we both loved this card.

RECOMMENDATION:
I am just making a cosmetic change with this one, trimming the name and updating the art work.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
This is not really a variant, it's just an update to name and art:



Feel free to discuss the card if you like, otherwise I'll move quickly to the 3's.

57
Thanks again all of you. You are right of course, +2$ and a single trash is just too much for 2$ when it comes with full defense. I need it to stay a full defensive card and I'd like it to stay at 2 for costing, so here's another variant that's toned down:



Provides the +2$ now only a discard, but can still allow a single trash and +1$. This actually makes it a nice hybrid of Servant and Pauper (the other 2$ in the set), so I am pretty keen on this one. What do you think? Seems like it is viable this way, if maybe a little boring.

58
It should say "from your hand", thanks for that. You might be right on the balance/cost, I worry it is just a tad too much.

It is stronger than Moat in the early rounds, but less so later in the game. We found in our testing that a single-card trash wasn't effective, without some kind of bonus for the trashing, even at a 2$ cost.

In fact, I'd take this card over it:



This card's rating soared, it was one of the strongest cards we tested, but the original Bailey did not. It had a very poor rating and a very poor win/loss record. So I was looking to give Bailey a boost, I may have gone too far, as it does shine above Moat in the early rounds.

59
BAILEY

GRADE: D
RATING: 0.83 +/- 0.11
RATING POSITION: 20th out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 14th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
Actually, this card rarely combined well with any card, because despite its popularity, it was never consistently bought to combine with other cards. Also the card didn't have that great of a Win/Loss record to begin with. This combo at least had some synergy to it, as the Villa often used the +buy to get more Victory cards, or used the trash to get rid of Copper. But even this combo was rarely spectacular or effective.

ASSESSMENT:
This is a failed card. Although it did not fail as badly as Servant's Quarters (and was purchased more often), the card was often purchased for its defensive ability alone. Also the card has choices, but none were strong. Even trashing one card, just simply didn't jump you fast enough (especially since the set had other more elegant ways of dealing with cak in your hand). It shined most when it stopped a devastating attack, so I kept the full defensive reaction. It was really the key aspect of the card that truly shined.

RECOMMENDATION:
Keep the card name but update the card's art.

I switched this card, so that it can really shine in those early rounds. I took the +buy feature out, so that other +buy cards in the set can be even more desired. This card's clear intent now is to push your money up in the early going, trashing copper/estates for a +2$ bump. That's nice, (and maybe too nice). Of course, it goes counter to some of the other strategies in the set that LIKE Copper and Estates, but it becomes a relatively nice BM-support card and allows you to smite the Curse you picked up on that turn you failed to draw the Bailey.

The card is quite useful in turns 3-6, and then less so after that (other than a defensive reaction). I think it might test okay like this. It's terminal, and quite handy early in the game.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
The current variant on the table for review for this card is this:



What do you think? Is the power about right for the cost?

60
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« on: November 20, 2011, 12:33:25 pm »
i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.

You might be right, your testing will inform you if you are right or not. I think the adjustments you made were good (changing it to 3$ in particular was the right move I think). One thing I learned is that a card's value and worth really only truly manifests in testing. Even in real expansions this is true. At first glance, Jack of all Trades seemed decent but not really strong, but the testing of the best players revealed it to be one of the best supporters of big money in the game.

That's the joy of testing, you begin to discover the hidden secrets of your own expansion, you didn't even see. I wish you great luck with your testing, it is great fun.

61
Variants and Fan Cards / Silver Lining - Beta 2
« on: November 20, 2011, 12:29:50 pm »

This is a fan variant developed by a new player. This thread hosts the cards that completed peer review for the second beta test. Cards that are still being discussed and under peer review in this expansion can be seen in this thread. The test results of the first beta can be seen in this thread.

There's a basic shuffler for this expansion as well that produces a random shuffle. You can view the shuffler here.

Listed below is the cards that passed peer review (or tested fine in the first beta and did not need a review). Once all 25 are up, I'll start testing again and post ratings and findings here.

2 Cost


3 Cost


4 Cost






62
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« on: November 20, 2011, 12:06:42 am »
Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.

You might find that removing the +1 Action will keep the card at 2$ however. A terminal that trashes a single card, is not that strong. In fact, it can test out to be quite weak. I tested this card for example:



...the above card isn't the same of course, it doesn't give you the same range of ability (it provides choice and defense instead), but I can tell you that card rated horribly as one of the worst buys that I tested. Also I had another card that allowed you to trash copper for +1 card, and it was also one of the worst rated cards. Bailey is getting a similar revision to what you've listed, for its next test (it has two +1$ effects one as the primary and one as the "reward" for trashing), but it remains terminal.

So a terminal card that trashes one card isn't that strong. A cantrip that trashes however will rate MUCH higher. Even the weakest trashers in my testing, tested really well if they had a +action to them, as they allowed the turn to continue, often allowing a stronger terminal to end the turn after the trashing.

You may find otherwise, but I would say Medicine is not costed right as it stands.

63
My Inn feels the sudden need to be staffed with a Servant or two.

Hehehe, yeah it's strong when on the board with any card that discards frequently. It would work fairly well with Cellar even. Without a strong discard companion, it's a pretty gimped Cellar. I don't think it combos that well with itself, because you need a +action source somewhere.

Is it too strong though? Getting a hand advantage from a discard is pretty easily exploited with the right companion, but maybe that's okay?

64
Here's the variant I came up. I pushed the Moat-draw on the discard effect (which should combo nicely with other cards). I took away the full-defensive reaction to accommodate for the fact the discard-reaction is fairly strong:



You can click the card for a larger version if you are having a hard time reading.

I also added a new calculation to the original card report. Each card report will now feature a section highlighting which card it successfully combined with most.

I think the new variant has the potential to combine with other cards quite successfully now, but it does mean my expansion has only one full-defensive card, but I might look at providing a full-defense on another more-expensive card to accommodate that deficiency.

65
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Help! I've become too good!
« on: November 19, 2011, 03:06:57 pm »
I agree with Mustard, in that sometimes the solution is a more cooperative game. Personally, my wife and I play both types. This is a pretty old tradition, my grandparents were great bridge-partners (cooperative), but they also loved to play competitive card games against each other. The reason they loved both, was because playing cards was really an excuse to talk, laugh (and maybe have some tea and biscuits along the way). They did this for decades, until my grandfather passed away.

Playing with friends and loved ones is a very rich experience. I'd really caution anyone to become so competitive that they lose the ability to enjoy a game (even a competitive one) with their friends. I don't say to demonize anyone's play-style, only to encourage adapting your habits, so that you can enjoy it (which is exactly what Mustard did, he adapted in a particularly way).

Here's a small personal anecdote to illustrate this point one last time:

I just tested 100 games of my ridiculous fan variant of DOMINION. On that 100th game, there was an obvious combo on the board. My wife missed it, I saw it and I began to crush her (and this was obvious by turn 10). She got emotional. She felt she had failed me, because it was the 100th game and she felt she didn't have the skill to provide a competitive match. She was hurt. She likes gaming with me and she wants to game well, (not just so she can win, but so we can keep gaming, because she enjoys it). So we stopped right there. I suggested we take a coffee break. During coffee, I let her know the combo on the board was a "bit broken" and that in DOMINION learning which combinations are so devastating that BOTH opponents must reach for them is all part of the learning experience. I told her, the best way to win, was to "fight fire with fire".

So we restarted the same board, back to turn 1 after coffee. However, she did NOT follow my buys precisely. She picked up the strong combo, but she also picked up a third card for additional support, (while I stuck to just the combo).

That game ended 19-19, on a three-pile and an even distribution of curses, and an even-number of turns.

It was the perfect ending of our testing.

It's a game she and I still talk about too, because it came down to the wire. It turned out her additional third car, was one of her saving cards to reach the draw condition too.

This is how you can game with a friend, not win, but still, not lose. Not just because the game was ACTUALLY a draw, but because a brief pause in the competition, allowed the game to evolve into a better gaming experience (both competitively and socially) for both of us.

It's one of my favorite games of DOMINION I've ever played.

66
Yeah point taken, +$ on a discard reaction is messy. Let me go back to the drawing board with this, thanks guys.

67
Maybe it needs to be worded something like "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do: if it is your turn, +$1; otherwise set it aside and at the start of your next turn discard it and +$1."

(First sentence matches Tunnel.)

Nice, cheers.

Perhaps something like this?

When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, at the start of your next Buy phase, +$1

It is very similar, but just a tad shorter.

68
I rather like the first variant myself, but you bring up a very interesting rule question.

To answer you question:

Also, what happens if you discard this on an opponents turn?

I assume the +1$ goes on the stack? Kind of like a Duration card, the 1$ kicks in at the start of your turn? It's a good question, since no other "on discard" trigger has ever put money on the stack and the rules probably don't support how that works.  It makes me realize gaining +1$ on a discard might not work.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment, much appreciated!

69
Servant's Quarters

GRADE: F
RATING: 0.77 +/- 0.14
RATING POSITION: 23rd out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 21st out of 25


BEST COMBO:
It's pretty easy to see why this was the best combination Servant's Quarters was involved in. The Emporium can reveal the Servant's Quarters and decide to put aside the bad card, or discard it to gain a card. Since Emporium puts actions onto the stack, having a filter and a possible card-draw in one play is a pretty decent cantrip.

ASSESSMENT:
This is a failed card. This assessment is made knowing it's a 2-Cost Reaction card, meaning its utility is meant to be limited, but even with these factors it still failed and was a miserable card.

+1 Card is simply an unffective and useless ability, as BOTH a prime ability and a secondary ability (the discard bonus).

The card also suffers from having three basic compartments, and only the last ability (the full-defense of an attack) has any real utility at all.

The card also had a high-tendency to go completely unbought and indeed we often had to FORCE ourselves to buy it, just to test it, (which generally signals a disliked, dysfunctional card).

RECOMMENDATION:
Rename the card "Servant", it's a lighter, tighter name for a card that is essentially a low-priced utility card that is easily acquired. Change the image to artwork rather than a photograph.

Keep the main defensive ability, it suits the theme of the card and keeps two defensive cards in the expansion.

Change the primary ability and secondary ability to have more synergy and ability.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
The current variant on the table for review for this card is this:





70
CARD GRADING
(Post v1 Testing)

The following is an assessment of each card in the expansion post-testing. Each card will get a grade and that grade will indicate whether a revision is necessary. I will post one card at a time and wait for comments (if any) and then make final revisions, push the card to a Silver Lining v2 - Beta thread.

Once all 25 cards have completed the process, I will test again, actively working to bring the set to completion by the end of the second set.

Here is how each section in the report breaks down:

GRADE:

A simple grading system, that does not judge the POWER of the card, but rather the overall balance, utility and design. It breaks down this way:

  • A - Card tested well, seems perfectly balanced with great utility and cost, will stay the same for future tests. The only caveat will be minor cosmetic changes or semantic changes to the card's overall text.
  • B - Card tested well and was generally a well-balanced card. Card's that rate "B" might have some red flags in testing and might have very minor adjustments, but those adjustments will likely be cosmetic, semantic or just the tiniest of revisions.
  • C - This is the grade I give cards I am unsure about. Testing might have revealed some issues with the card, or the card seemed just a tad too powerful or weak, but I am unsure just what to do with the card.
  • D - This card had some utility at rare times, but was mostly broken in some way or clearly needs an adjustment.
  • F - This card failed. It was disliked, or was utterly broken and needs a complete overhaul.

RATING
This is the card's rating after the 100 games of testing. It is a fairly crude formula that was used to calculate it. It was a hybrid of the card's win-loss rating, (with a small bonus if the card was in both winning and losing decks, so it would not score entirely neutral if that happened). It also gave a very small bonus to the most popular cards (the assumption cards that were purchased often, must have had utility).

The ratings are expressed like this: 1.0 +/- 0.11.

1.0 is essentially "perfectly balanced" while 2.0 is a card that "always wins and never loses" and 0.0 is a card that "never wins and always loses". The variance is a crude calculation to give me a range of error. The more games the card was active in, the less the variance will be. In the above example, the card could be rated as low 0.89 or as high as 1.11.

RATING POSITION
Denotes where out of the 25 cards this particular card's rating ranked. A card that was the WORST ranked card gets a rating of 25 out 25, while the BEST card in the set gets a rating of 1 out of 25.

POPULARITY POSITION
Denotes where out of the 25 cards this particular card's popularity ranks. Popularity is calculated as getting one point every time a player bought or gained at least one copy of the card of their own volition.

BEST COMBO
This highlights which card combination produced the highest percentage of victory for the card. It is a simple calculation of win-percentage of this card combined with all other buys/gains it was combined with in a winning/losing deck.

ASSESSMENT
This is some general notes from my wife and I (who play tested with me) about the card's utility, value and general balance.

RECOMMENDATION
This is the summary of what I recommend I do the card, it usually breaks down into whether I keep the card as is, adjust the card very slightly (usually just technical changes to the rules/verbiage of the card, or whether I completely overhaul the card.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
If the recommendation required a small adjustment or a complete overhaul, I'll list the change(s) here. There are sometimes just one variant to look at, other times several. Comment is most welcome on which variant you feel will produce the best results or appear to be the most balanced.

71


This is the second phase of a Dominion newbie developing his own fan variant. It is called Silver Lining. The second phase now comes after the first phase produced 100 test games and the results of those games were cataloged and analyzed. This is an exercise to help me learn the game's intricacy and balance and come to appreciate the difficulty of design in an elegant game such as DOMINION.

This thread is the "sequel" to the first round of beta-testing found here and the first round of peer-review found here.

Here are two other links related to the expansion:
For this thread, I am going to unveil one card at a time. Each card will have its rating and summary from the first phase of testing, and if necessary, it will discuss which revisions I feel are required for the second phase. The good news is most cards won't need revising as they tested fine. Others might just have small cosmetic revisions or small technical tweaks to the rules. Some cards will require a complete overhaul.

Comments, feedback and most of all criticisms are welcome. Rip this expansion apart, the more critical review I receive, the better the expansion will be.

THEME/ FLAVOR OF THE SET
Here are some of the set's themes and here is generally how the set plays:
  • SILVER - This set's central theme revolves around making silver a useful card. There are victory cards that score on the acquisition of silver and other cards that require a silver to ignite an ability.
  • MIDDLE ROAD - One of the set's themes is it allows you to win via the "middle road", that is to say by acquiring silver instead of gold and acquiring dutchies instead of provinces (along with other VP routes of course to make up for the point difference).
  • FAST GAMES - In general, this is a fast set. Games usually play slightly faster than other DOMINION sets. There are exceptions to this, but overall most games are over in 18 turns or so.
  • GREEN EARLY - The set encourages and rewards greening early, and can often augment greening early with victory tokens.
  • PILING - There are numerous mechanisms and combinations which allow you to pile certain cards.
  • NUMEROUS VICTORY PATHS - The set often provides numerous ways to win, when you combine the fact you can green early, pile quickly and that 'middle road' tactics are well-supported the way you can win is often diverse.
  • SYNERGY - The set has obvious synergy, many of the cards are clearly designed to work with one another.

WEAKNESSES
The set has weaknesses, it's a very "basic" set that does not require a great deal of skill to master (one of the artifacts of the synergy is some of the combinations that work well are obvious). Another weakness is that almost all the curse attacks in the set are weaker than curse attacks in other expansions. Curse attacks are still viable, (i.e. they still work and are effective), but overall they are not as strong as the genuine curse attacks in real expansions.

Also the set is a mish-mash of ideas that are often borrowed from the other expansions. It has Duration cards like Seaside and it borrows both the discard-mechanic of Tunnel and the "on-gain" mechanic of Ill-Gotten Gains for some of its variants. So it is a highly derivative set. I can accept this, because its my first attempt at designing these, and because I think fan variants in general are often derivative. Also using all the "known tricks" of DOMINION allowed me to produce the kind of synergy in the set I was looking for.

I will write more on this thread in the coming days.

I say this often, but just to be clear, I know this is not of prolific interest to others, but using this space to document my notes and findings is really useful and if it elicits comments and feedback by doing so, so much the better.

Cheers.

72
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Help! I've become too good!
« on: November 18, 2011, 12:00:29 pm »
The whole play to win/play to have fun thing is, I guess, inextricably tied to people's personalities.  Some people can differentiate better than others.  Anyway, I agree that they aren't mutually exclusive, but I strongly denounce the idea that they're the same.

I agree. It's a matter of priorities really, and focus. To TRULY focus on winning, to really rise high in the ranks, winning must be singular focus. It's not quite as true in something relatively passive like DOMINION, but in sport, winning often means a singular focus, at the full-expense of recreation. Your winning BECOMES the fun and that victory is generally only enjoyed briefly at its culmination. The enjoyment is brief, because you must then singularly focus on winning the next one.

Note Lombardi's quotes on this subject, where winning is the breath of life and there's no time for "entertainment", your entertainment is your success and vice-versa, that's it, that's how obsessive you must be with winning to truly rise to the highest echelon. Most pro-athletes don't enjoy the game they play that much anymore, it becomes a job. It has to become a job, in order for them to succeed.

But I stray too far from the original intent of the thread.

I concur that advice to opponents has to be handled with etiquette and with some awareness of how your opponent handles/absorbs advice as a whole.

With my wife, what worked best was talking about a board before we started. I'd ask her what she thought about playing and then I'd point things out like, "you've reached for two terminals in the first two turns, remember when you did that last time and both cards collided?". Or nudges like, "maybe this board isn't that strong and money might be a better focus with just a few actions for support"?

I generally tend to ask questions, as if I am unsure myself (hey I often am), so it makes it seem that we're both helping each other out (and in a way we are).

Here's the thing, some people use DOMINION as a social exercise. In other words, it's the social aspect we enjoy most. For my wife and I, we play for an hour, shortly after dinner. The kids have done their homework, I'm well-fed, the chores are mostly done and we can relax and enjoy something frivolous. Dominion is a relatively fast, fun game. But when I played frequently on iso and read the articles here, I "artificially" vaulted ahead of her skills. This took away the central reason why we played, to just relax and have fun. It took it away, because my wife could no longer compete.

Now I can go back to focusing primarily on "winning" again. I shift the priorities. They are NOT mutually exclusive, but they are a kind of balancing act. How you tip those scales comes to personal taste and the personalities of your opponent. One soccer team I play with, is hyper-competitive. There's not much chit-chat at practice and practices are vocal when you suck or screw up. There's no mincing of words. Other pick-up games are friendlier. You distribute the ball to weaker players because you know they need practice. You tend to congratulate your opponents more when they play well (because next week they might be on your team). The priorities shift, and it produces a different type of game, that has equal value, but for different reasons.

Some people can't transition from one to the other. In particular some people see any competition as a singular, obsessive focus. I get that. I know people like that and they tend to be great players in any endeavor (and tend to be excellent workmates because I think this focus is tied to work ethic too). But I also really enjoy games where the competition is taken down a notch, where the beer and the pretzels come out and the amount of laughter during a game rises exponentially. That, for me, is an important aspect of gaming too.

73
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Silver Lining - Beta Cards
« on: November 17, 2011, 10:47:29 pm »

FINAL BETA REPORT

The first beta is complete. I have some solid findings and a decent assessment of all cards in the set.

In the end, all the 100 games revealed was I need to alter the set and then conduct another round of tests (it will likely be my final set of tests though as I believe the set is pretty close). I will be discussing each card individually for peer review in a separate thread. The good news is most of the cards tested just fine, and most were quite fun and cool.

For now here are the final conclusions of the test run:

NOTE: Church Bell has been removed from the expansion entirely, as it testing revealed it was clearly far too strong. It will get nerfed in the second-wave of testing. The card will not appear in this report.

Take these rating calculations with a grain of salt, it's a rather clumsy formula and based on a limited dataset. Still it is producing a reasonable report of the power of each card. Here are some of the card ratings after 100 games.

TOP RATED CARDS
LYCANTHROPE
VALUE: 1.35 +/- 0.11
This card isn't that great, against almost every 5-attack card in the real game it probably stacks up as rather weak. But since we tested almost entirely inter-set this card stood out as a useful, bona fide attack. If it has a strength, it's that it adds that 1$, while it often takes away a Silver, and so it provides a money edge  in the early rounds. Of course, it sometimes even spawns a Curse (which is even better).

The damn card often took me from 8$ to 6$ in the later rounds. In the early rounds, I often watched as my opponent reach gold in the early rounds by getting +1$, +1 Card, while I had to rebuy my Silver I just lost as I went from 3$ to 5$ (which coincidentally delayed me getting my own Lycan).

The rating is skewed a little high, because I ran three solo games with this against Black Knight (to test the two 5$ curse attacks against one another). Lycanthrope beat the Black Knight three straight, so it juiced the rating a little.

Given the nature of the set, losing a Silver to this card is sometimes a big deal. The set caters exclusively to Province games and the set moves FAST (games often end before or at turn 18), so you must get ahead early and Lycanthrope can prevent your opponent from doing that.

It helps gimp an opponent's Silver Vein deck, it works well with Druid and works very well with Summon.

When I begin to assess the changes to the set, I may actually increase the power of the card slightly (despite its high rating), or I will solos with it against Witch and see how it fares (I suspect it will get clobbered).

PAUPER'S FEAST
VALUE: 1.24 +/- 0.07
The strongest and most popular 2. So beloved that we won't touch it on the second-wave, the card is balanced and well-liked it. It turns out that a weaker Chapel is quite useful because it bumps you up a Copper and trashes itself. Is it as strong as Chapel? Heck no, but it can do the job in the early rounds.

I might tweak the name and look of the card a little, a card this popular deserves the best treatment I can give it. I am VERY happy with this card.

I should note the flaw in my rating system with this card. Really, this card performed better than Lycanthrope, but because it was often in the winning AND losing deck, the card didn't score as well. I adjusted for this slightly with some data fudging, but I can tell you, the card works well and can really stand quite well against a lot of real 2s in the Dominion kingdom.

SILVER VEIN
VALUE: 1.24 +/- 0.08
Silver Vein is just a tad broken, the rating doesn't quite reflect this, because again, it wound up so often in both winner's and victor's hands. One thing this card commands is respect, you MUST purchase at least two or you will NOT win (assuming its an all Silver Lining game anyway). The card is just that strong.

It's much stronger than a Gardens deck, because the card itself feeds you the points and the thing you feed your points with acquires more Silver Veins (and even eventually a few Provinces). In other words it often doesn't need the kind of support a Gardens needs to win. You couple that with the fact the expansion caters to this victory path and we have a bit of a problem.

It's a FUN card to run. It's a FUN way to win. And it works. I just might need to governor the thing just a tad, so that it isn't so utterly commanding on a board. Right now, you can't ignore the card in an inter-set match.

EXCURSION
VALUE: 1.23 +/- 0.11
This card's rating continues to decline. We got fooled by own numbers a little. We ran so few games, saw the "success" factor of the card and then bought it frequently in the early rounds. In fact, the card shines when there's an alternate-victory card that does something to enable your engine. When it doesn't have that, it's a weak cantrip with a weak trashing power (that's usually useless by turn 5 or 6 once your estates are out).

It's a perfectly balanced card though and has a little more utility than it appears at first glance. I call that a success and this card will stay as-is. One note however, is rink found a wording issue which I will address. The verbiage will now make sure the victory card from the discard pile is revealed before its trashed, so you are sure the card from the discard pile is the one that is trashed.

EMPORIUM
VALUE: 1.2 +/- 0.1
This card is a streaky son-of-a. When it "lucks" out and pushes two cards to the side, you begin to soar, when it "craps  out" and moves two useful cards to the discard pile, you curse the thing, (especially early in a shuffle and you know may not see those cards again for a few turns).

Actually, as we reached the end of the testing cycle, this card often stayed dead. It was one of those cards that frustrates you too much. It  has too much of a luck factor. I actually expect this card's rating would diminish to a neutral 1.0 if we tested it more. We learned later, that Druid was MUCH better at doing what this card's primary purpose is.

Still, sometimes +2 Actions and a +Buy is really useful combo, and when it is, you don't mind spending the 5$.


WORST CARDS
VALUE: 0.6 +/- 0.15
This card sucks. We hated it by the end of the test-run and it stayed dead on the board more often than any other card during the last 20 games. It will get a SERIOUS overhaul in the next version.
VALUE: 0.77 +/- 0.23
This card is actually pretty bad. It's not as bad as the rating suggests though.

The story of this card, is my wife hates attack cards. She liked this one though, because it had a constructive element (she could possibly gain the discarded card). Also her favorite attack is Militia, and this seemed similar to her. Actually, I wager Militia kicks this card's ass one-on-one (something I need to test), because in fact, spamming Copper now and then doesn't really hurt (especially when certain other victory conditions are present in this set).

The thing is though, my wife doesn't attack aggressively. In  other words, attack cards complement her overall engine, but they are never the focus of the deck. So she does not actively work to spam the attack as much as possible. I expect a very aggressive attack with this card might yield better results.

Still, usually get to spam a copper into your opponent's discard pile, or you get a lousy silver in your discard pile. In the end, that's simply not that exciting, nor does it really focus you onto a victory path.
VALUE: 0.77 +/- 0.14
Just an AWFUL card, that doesn't get you anywhere. My poor wife tried to make this card work for in several games (she likes having a defense in any game where there's attacks), but really reaction cards can't compete with attacks and this particular reaction card, sucks.

This will get a serious face lift in the revision.

COMBINATIONS

DRUID / ARGENT
This actually is three-card combo. The combo also needs Pauper's Feast to really shine.  It takes about 9 turns to get it going. You Pauper your junk a little, and buy a few Druids and an Argent and two Silver. Then you are off to the races. The Druids give you cards and actions, and then the next turn they help you put your land away.

I had 7 Provinces by turn 15 with this combination and best of all, my deck was still really tight, because most of those Provinces were off to the side. Is the combo broken? A little, but I don't consider it deleterious.

Still, I would say other than Church Bell (which we banned), Argent has the most danger of being really broken. Also, having a lot of Druids in your  deck is  a stupendous boost. When you start your turn with three of them on the Duration stack, that means you get +3 Cards and +3 Actions before you've even played a card. You couple that fact those same Druids are keeping your deck lean and mean, it's very, very strong.

SPRITE / SILVER VEIN
Sprite is a really dumb, but terribly addictive and fun card.  It shines when you have lots of green. It wants to be green, it rewards you with cards and actions (and more Sprites). The thing I really like about Sprite from a design stand point is her allure is temporary. She  WILL go away, she will almost pile-out in any game and the engine you build around her will eventually crumble.

She's a time bomb, albeit one whose spamming victory points along the way.

With Silver Vein, she can discard a Silver Vein in a hand that is close a Province, or she can discard the Province, to help you draw the Silver Veins you need. The two are compatible and this was a pretty common victory path in some of our games.

AUCTION / BLACK KNIGHT
Auction is weird. It LOOKS cool. Actually, it doesn't even enable a Silver Vein strategy as well as Druid does (although it is still a great support for Silver Vein tactics). But with Black Knight it can be quite delightful. You essentially trash the Black Knight, spread a Curse, gain a Silver and another Black Knight. The silvers eventually assure you can rush the Black Knights even more and when they run out, the Auction turns Black Knights into Dutchies.

It's not a lethal combo, but you can rush Black Knight and Dutchy really quickly this way, you're only challenge is to find a third pile to deplete to win before your opponent hops on the Province-train. One solution is Auction itself, (which you can just Auction into Silver), but an even better solution is Land Grab, which also adds to the speed at which you deplete Black Knight (and spread curses).

We're pretty pleased with how complementary many of the cards are, and how it can produce alternate means of winning. I've only highlighted a few of the combinations in these reports.

CONCLUSION
We discovered some of the card's strengths late. Druid was something we experimented with, but never rushed, but when we realized it was an EXCELLENT card to have four or five of, it came to dominate the board. This was one of the flaws of our testing. You have so much to try, sample and test, that sometimes your discovery of power-problems come too late. Also, you have to FORCE yourself to test everything, so you sometimes are building decks just for testing purposes rather than winning.

This caused a lot of problems for us. It really skewed some of our ratings and at times, created some pretty awful games. When we shifted back to "just win baby", the games got better, faster and the exposure of dangerous combinations manifested themselves much more quickly.

I think some forced assessments are necessary. In other words, in some games my wife and I would discuss what cards we would try and make work, sometimes ensuring we would not test the same thing at the same time.  But I would limit this much more than we initially did. It's useful, but only to a point.

Also I did about 18 solo games out of the 100. Most of the time solo games ran on VERY basic algorithms, or sometimes pitted one card exclusively against another (with BM). These produced interesting results, but far, far less interesting than a real game. Also the data from the games tended to skew my ratings. I don't think testing things against BM (or with BM) reveals too much, in the end. BM can't handle curses at all, for example, but that doesn't mean you have a well-balanced curse card.

One thing I noted was even a really weak curse card (like Lycanthrope or Shyster) can clobber Big Money+1 Card Draw card. So what do you really gain from testing this way?

In future, I will continue to "pit" similar cards against one another to assess their relative strength, but I will no longer fold those tests into my overall results, data or ratings.

Finally, I would say a vast majority of my designs and cards functioned really well. That is to say, they had some basic utility, weren't particularly broken and were costed fairly accurately. Most importantly, most of the games we played were REALLY fun.

Without tooting my horn too loudly I hope, I think this set is quite fun. It has a variety of paths to take to win, and it rewards greening early and greening via Silver/Dutchies and other victory cards. It has curse attacks, that are a little more cumbersome than the curse attacks in real sets, but they still function and they still have to be recognized (and used if you wish to win).

I wanted to thank you all again for your patience while I went through this exercise. I will start a new thread in a day or two, that will assess each card individually and offer revisions (if necessary).

Then I test it all over again. :)

74
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Veto strategy
« on: November 17, 2011, 06:31:36 pm »
But if it works for you guys, more power to you.

Cheers and to clarify winning in some games can be secondary to having a good time playing the game. For example, how competitive do you get at a game played at a dinner party? Usually, you often don't compete as seriously and instead create an atmosphere that produces laughter and fun. Dice games are often like this for example, which is one reason why people like them. Playing a game with kids is another clear cut example. Winning is still an object (perhaps), but a secondary one. Even in sport this can be so. In some soccer games, I do all I can to win, in other games (pickup soccer on Sunday) I actually try to focus on improving certain elements of my game, or focus on one aspect, (even to the detriment of winning). So it can even be a useful tactic to make winning secondary.

When my wife and I play DOMINION, I know she hates attack cards (especially curse cards). When I reach for the Witch, I let her know and she laments this, because she knows she must get one now too. She'll never reach for it first though, it's just not her style. She plays well, but to her the enjoyment of the game is building a fun, functional deck, not destroying someone else's. That's one of the reasons the game appeals to her, the constructive elements are a lot of fun to her, the destructive elements are not.

75
Dominion Articles / Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« on: November 17, 2011, 06:04:28 pm »
Is there a place for Noble Brigand and Nomad Camp on the worst card lists? Nomad Camp's singular purpose seems to advance your 3$ draw on turn 2 into a 5$ draw. After that's you just paid four bucks for a Woodcutter. Noble Brigand just seems really weak to me.

And is there a place for Tunnel on the best card list? Man, I love that card! It might be my favorite 3$ card.

I am asking, because I am in no position to judge, just seems to me these cards might deserve mention.

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