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26

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 23, 2011, 11:53:23 am »

You guys are great, I really hope I run into some of you at a gaming convention one day. I'd really like to buy all of you a beer.

Qvist - Yeah testing showed the card to not be quite as broken as it would appear, well said. The trick to beating it was being agile enough, that you could counter-attack nearly as often, but then also build a more agile/robust engine. Summon was a "simpler/easier" route, that often worked, but often there was a better, subtler way to win. Removing the +1 Action would, I fear, leave it dead on the board in a lot of games.

I don't think it works at all as a terminal card (or at least I think if its terminal it's a 2$ card). In the situation where you had no ations on the stack, you really wouldn't do anything but tutor your first treasure and so the average gain would be maybe 2$ in the later rounds and far, far worse in the early rounds. On the situation where you got both terminals (Summon+the card you want to tutor for), well the situation is worse. You'd "hit the lottery" on a Village+Summon draw, it means you could tutor the marquee terminal and play it, but that is a lot of work and not easy to ensure you get that. You could build an engine to get that, and if you've built an engine, you don't really need the Summon. Not to mention, the design would ensure you'd never want more than one. But then I guess a lot of terminals wind up being like that. Summon's "appeal" is a fast, quick, instant engine to launch attacks (or some other strong terminal). It soars early, sputters late and isn't particularly agile, but can be extremely effective.

You assessed the card perfectly (in fact it took you just a few minutes to deduce what it took me 100 games to arrive at, I really marvel at how well you guys assess and judge cards). The card is overpowered when a card like Witch or Torturer is in the Kingdom and really lousy when other obvious engines are there. Your 4$ advice, I think is literally right on the money, if you'll forgive the pun.

DStu - Another superb post from you. Cheers.  This line summarizes the issue beautifully:

I think, coming from rinksworks thread it really seems somehow wrong to let you play $5 cards for $4, but when you want to do this you are so limited in your strategy that is is not a big deal

I think given the analysis from DStu and Qvist, I'll bump the price to 4$. Play test it and see how it goes.

Much obliged, for this, thank again.

27

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 23, 2011, 10:29:13 am »

This card is close to Venture. But Venture is limited to Treasure cards. This is not. So basically this seems like a $5-$6 card to me.

Venture is a Treasure though, so it operates differently, but your point is well-taken, because despite the fact Summon is an action card, it is distinctly better.

Another comparism would be Scheme. This is a $3 card which also allows you to play your favourite attack more often. I think at the first few turns both card would play similarly, but Summon would be more faster and more reliable in the mid- and end-game, what definitely makes it better.

Scheme can be more agile too, because it can allow for deeper tactics, while Summon really only functions well with a singular "marquee" card that you tutor for. Otherwise it becomes too random and really starts to sputter. Scheme lets you play more variety, while still keeping the best card of that set in your next hand. Still, again, your point is really well taken.

Also Summon has shuffle issues. Summon can sometimes shuffle to the bottom right next to the card you want to tutor. So you wait 2 turns to finally get back to Summon, you draw 5, then tutor the NEXT card for the attack, then you shuffle all over again and hope Summon isn't at the bottom. (You probably have to waste another buy on another Summon once your deck widens to this point this is a frequent danger).

But I am not really trying to argue with you, just letting you know how it plays and why Scheme, at times, is a stronger card.

Dicarding a card is a good try for a disadvantage.
But what about removing the +1 Action? So if you have no village in your hand, you have to search for a treasure for the cost of an action. That would make it a $3 card for me.

Yeah, this thought has occurred to me too. I was worried the card would lie dead on the board if I made this change. See the thing is, Summon+Village+Some really strong action card, is a really weak tactic. It will rarely come off, usually because the "some really strong action card" is also a terminal. And this is really Summon's strength, it summons that strong terminal to your hand and lets you play it often.

Once you add second and third action cards to the mix, it falters - a lot. I think even rinkwork's found this out with his card (he was initially testing it with two or three supporting cards and didn't see at first how much stronger it is with just  one).

Still Qvist, you are right on every single point. Discarding might slow it down, but the key mechanic of the card is still strong. It is particularly strong with something like Torturer in the kingdom. You can virtually assure your opponent plays with just 3 cards every turn with Summon, and you can do this very early - and often, which is precisely the time you want that strong advantage, as it can catapult you ahead to a point where the opponent can't catch up.

There are several ways I can put an additional governor on the card:

1. I can limit the number of cards it can tutor. This is a pretty key way to kill its power. For example I could say, "reveal up to 5 cards". This does a few things. One of course, is it creates a chance you do not get the card you want. Second is, it slows down the speed at which you mill through your deck, (slowing down the speed at which you get the Summon back into your hand). One of the real strengths of Summon+1 really good card, is it often puts you in a reshuffle condition, (zipping past your green cards along the way, which is nice). A governor of this sort, can slow that ability down.

2. I can make you discard 2 cards. That's a steep price to launch a marquee attack.

3. I can push it to 4$. Although, in my experience, cost adjustments are weird. Because you don't really deal with the power of the card, sometimes adjusting the price just makes the card slower to reach, (which can increase the swing-factor). Putting it at 4$ assures its accessible to both players on the first 2 turns. Actually I'd welcome a whole other thread on costing. Because the difference between 4$ and 5$ is HUGE...while the difference between 3$ and 4$ is largely inconsequential in comparison. How to cost cards is hard, really hard and this Variants forum might benefit from a whole discussion on it. Sometimes LOWERING the cost of a strong card actually makes a card more fair and balanced.

4. I can make the card a one-off, (as in it trashes itself after the main tutor effect is resolved). This might be the more elegant solution, although I might add +1$ or something. This would make it a nice card in early rounds to ensure you get Chapel (or some other highly desired card) in an early shuffle. Of course, the card laughs at you when you get the card you want and Summon in the same hand. (You'd be a fool to play it, and it would become a dead card that turn). In the later rounds you'd buy it just before your next shuffle, to help ensure you can tutor up as your deck widens. Maybe if I made it self-trashing effect, I could also add a Duration to it? This way it kicks in twice, before trashing itself.

My apologies I am essentially thinking out loud here. What I really need to say is, that you are right Qvist and the card still needs more work. Cheers.

28

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 23, 2011, 09:38:36 am »

Moving on to other cards, (I think we've kicked Hero around enough and I am ready to test it). I agree with you about Moat bio, I had originally also put the line "but it ain't that great either", after the phrase, "for 2$ that ain't that bad".

Summon posed an interesting problem for me, it seemed to rate okay, but it also created a similar problem rinkworks ran into on his "Royal Scepter" thread...(I've linked to that thread below if you want to review his findings...)

SUMMON

GRADE:  C RATING: 1.11 +/- 0.09 RATING POSITION: 10th out of 25 POPULARITY POSITION: 7th out of 25 BEST COMBO: The card was designed as a superb companion to a strong attack and it turns out this was its strongest function. This particular combination was tested a few times, and worked quite well. ASSESSMENT: I gave this card a "C" because it was a bit broken. Actually rinkworks has a similar card  he's testing on this thread here. His is a 4$ card with a Throne Room ability added in, but the premise is the same you tutor for a single card in your deck, then play it. The best thing you can do with this card is have a deck with no other action cards but Summon and a single, strong attack (or single strong terminal card draw). The Summon essentially assures you can spam that attack every hand. As your deck widens simply buy another Summon, and you can keep the attack going every turn. It's problem is two-fold: This is really all the card is good for. What it is really good for is really strong at times, and possibly broken, especially very early in the game (it can ensure you get Witch out earlier and more often for example than those who do not play this card). The flip-side to this however are these positive elements: It actually didn't rate ridiculously high, in other words, it SEEMS broken, but testing suggested focusing your deck on just getting one attack out, only gets you so far. Chances are, if that one card is strong enough, your opponent has it too and is getting it out too (even without Summon). Also, there's better ways to get an attack out there, this one just keeps milling but never really gains cards or generates money. A more adept, agile strategy can defeat it. In other words, it's a "pseudo-engine" that works well early, but a "real engine" eventually overpowers it. The card was popular, people liked toying with this card and sometimes they were rewarded with a win. RECOMMENDATION: I am going to tone down the card, just slightly, forcing you to discard to activate the tutor ability.  I think this can slow it down just enough to keep it in check, and keep it at 3$. SUGGESTED VARIANTS Here's the variant with the adjusted rule: I'd welcome comments on whether the tone-down is appropriate, or just a comment in general on how a strategy of buying just one strong action and milling to get to it constantly is an effective strategy.

Thanks as always, for all your support.

29

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 23, 2011, 12:58:00 am »

Yeah I'm not qualified to answer the question either Ty. I can just tell you that without the defensive reaction, Moat is an average card. Even with it, it ain't all that grand. My favorite reaction card is Tunnel, my second favorite is probably Watchtower.

I cheated really, I have two full-defensive cards that riff off Moat. One is worth 3$ that is just a gimped Monument on its own, the other replaces +2 Cards with +1$, Trash a Card. This is really the weakness of the expansion, it is highly derivative and not particularly creative.

But I think a good reaction card is judged as a whole and the reaction is very much part of the equation. A reaction to attack card is, if  you follow that, a lesser card without an attack on the board.

But hey Moat gets you 2 cards, which for 2 $ ain't bad, but it ain't exactly Chapel either.

30

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 10:23:11 pm »

Yeah that's what I liked about "gaining an Estate" as it was relatively unique. It was odd in that you had to squint and wonder when it was useful. Of course it had utility for things like Gardens decks, Silk Road decks and of course late in the game too when the game is close. It had utility with other cards in the set too, cards that want Victory cards to discard, or trash or set aside for points.

But, you know adding Pearl Diver might be too much (for one thing I am crowded for real estate on the card as it is). I like the idea, it's just that the card is just crowded already with text. I should probably test it, if it comes in weak or under-utilized I can add the "bottom-up" effect of Pearl Diver too.

Thanks again pops, you've been a really big help today.

31

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 09:50:22 pm »

Okay here's the new version for you all to judge:



I think the reaction verbiage is fine, it stipulates you can reveal for a full defensive deflection, but then you may also discard the card to get +1VP. The secondary ability is a really light ability to scout for the top card and decide to leave it there, or discard it. It seemed thematic, and also useful if you are greening early (as you often are in this expansion), or if you have a card draw to play with an action on the stack. If you happen to discard a discard-reaction card (like Servant) well so much the better.

Seems pretty decent to me now, thanks everyone for your help.

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Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 09:35:21 pm »

You read my mind pops, and beat me to the punch, the new card has similar verbiage to what you just posted.

Agree with bio, I don't want a non-terminal VP gainer, I think that's a problem. I've heard the argument about non-terminal full-defensive cards, I actually think that can be done  with a little thought, but let's put that aside, I want this to be a terminal card.

Are you going to replace it with something? Because just +1 VP sucks when there's no attacks.

Monument is +2$, +1VP @ 4$ with no defensive reaction at all. I think based on that, you can make an argument that Hero is fine as is, at 3$. I think a lot of full-defensive cards suffer a bit on the board when there's no attacks.  Still, let's add a little something to it, see how everyone reacts. I'll post the new card shortly.

33

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 07:10:00 pm »

Good to know, thank you rink and pops. I'll adjust the card to something similar to what pops suggested. I'll remove the "gain Estate" function and add it to another card. Much, much obliged to all of you for your help as always.

34

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Royal Scepter - combining Golem and Throne Room

« on: November 22, 2011, 05:50:15 pm »

I should also add that it is better than Throne Room, because it can mill to that harsh attack card, allowing you to ensure (practically anyway) that you can attack on almost every hand. So it does more than spam a card twice, it also mills to your best "feature" action card and gets it out there every time. The trick is to buy just one action, and then you can rely on getting it out there often (and twice).

You mitigate what the card doubles, by ensuring there's only one other card different (and that this card is a really strong card of course). It's not substantially better than Throne Room of course.

Again, a similar type of tutor card was play tested by me, it was popular and it worked best when it was part of a Kingdom with a strong attack card as its companion. My card was also 4$, so your pricing might be about right.

Hope that helps.

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Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Royal Scepter - combining Golem and Throne Room

« on: November 22, 2011, 05:44:08 pm »

I have a somewhat similar card at four dollars (minus the throne room feature).

The card was EXTREMELY effective at spamming a curse attack. This is both the real strength of a card like this, but it also highlights the weakness, without a singular strong action card, it often gets annoying and random.

Still, you'll find (I think) that buying this with Witch is a delight. Your only problem is a collision of the two on the same draw.

My similar card rated pretty neutral, meaning it wasn't that broken, but was fairly popular and at times enabled some nice combinations. I expect you'll likely find the same kind of result.

Also watch out for Reaction cards that are not Action cards, obviously the "Tunnel" effect is substantially strong here.

36

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion: Ingenuity (temporary name)

« on: November 22, 2011, 04:45:47 pm »

Yeah I'll gladly test the card for you when we start testing again, (which is soon). I can show you the win-loss and accrual rates as well (how often it was bought, what it was bought with etc).

I would have thought gaining it, with cards like Ironworks makes the card compelling. Certainly at 4$, it seems reasonable that you should allow it, but I can see that at 3$ it might be a bit much.

I should shut up and let you test. I'll test the version you think works best and let you know what I find.

37

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 04:35:32 pm »

It's true the window is small and not that deleterious, but I think rink's general guide is to avoid any kind of political problems. Your point about Masquerade is well-taken though, you can play politics with that card much more easily, but then your political play can only be targeted at one player.

I really like it with the two separate triggers, so for simplicity, maybe that's how I should go.

38

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion: Ingenuity (temporary name)

« on: November 22, 2011, 04:09:25 pm »

Thanks for the offer, but I don't go on isotropic anymore, just not a pleasant experience for me to game that way.

But I am curious as to why a trigger on a gain made such a huge difference? Was it because of other cards in the expansion? I was surprised to hear it made an balanced card broken. What happened there?

39

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 03:25:37 pm »

It does, but that's not the issue. The issue is if you know two opponents have Thief, you can choose to let one work, in lieu of stopping the first one early with a bonus.

For example, if I know Player 2 has a Thief and I know he's ahead on money (or is bigger threat than Player 3), I can use the discard effect on Player 2, knowing I am guaranteed the VP and that Player 3's Thief attack is less punishing, (because he's not as much of a threat).

Really any attack, where the attacker doesn't just harm you (but also benefits himself) has small political problems with the card. It sucks that it does, but it does. You can argue the politics are minute (or no different than electing not to reveal the reaction at all), but I should probably think of another way.

Your solution is a better one pops, because it ensures that the next player in line isn't the one to be most likely defended (while others will not be). But since I want to discard it eventually and I need to choose when, one way I can choose is letting the card go when a weaker opponent is next in line, knowing that if an attack-for-benefit play has less of an impact on my course to victory.

Perhaps the more elegant solution is to put the card on a mat?

When another player plays an Attack card you may reveal this card or from the Hero mat, if you do you are unaffected by the attack. If there are no Hero cards on the Hero mat, you must place this card on the Hero mat, +1VP. At the start of your next turn, you may return Hero to your hand.


This is clunky, but it assures you can always defend for the entire cycle of turns (preventing any bias), but also ensures you can never get more than +1VP as the additional bonus. It also ensures you can defend and play the card when it is your turn again, which boosts the power of the card, also keeps it compatible with other defensive reactions.

It's clunky though, pretty damn clunky.

40

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion: Ingenuity (temporary name)

« on: November 22, 2011, 03:06:05 pm »

Irrigated Land
Cost: $4
Victory/Treasure
Worth $1/1vp
When you buy this, + 1vp, you may trash a card from your hand.

You guys think this is better? Or should i keep the old one?

I preferred the other one, in that it triggers the second VP on the trashing. I liked it because in close games, it makes the acquisition possibly come at a price and that creates an interesting decision for the player. The original might be okay at 3$ as rink suggests. One advantage to it being 3$ is you can mine a copper into it (which is why I ask about gains later), then trash another copper.

But then again you tested it and you said it tested fine.

Really a lot of argument stops at that point. Testing proves just about everything. Opinions here, (however informed) aren't aware of how the card actually plays in your own kingdom and expansion. Trust your testing, truly, at some point you become as intimately familiar with your own expansion as you are with base set, and that makes you really good at assessing the cards, and you have data to back up the argument.

Also a card's value in any kingdom can be wrongly estimated, even the best players here adjusted their play (and valued cards differently) once they began to test Hinterlands thoroughly. Testing, is everything.

Also, the card can essentially trash a copy of itself. You lose a dollar by doing it, but you can keep your deck dense. I really like that. We play tested victory cards that gave you a cheap VP but could trash, (and therefore trash a copy of itself) and they tended to work. You tended to buy them early and then late. Early because the chances of drawing two were high enough, you could get rid of one, and then late when the additional VP really could tilt the game. This was especially true if an alternate-victory path was evident on the board. Irrigated Land works fairly well in a Gardens deck, or really any strategy where the key is blitz a 3-pile quickly and win without acquiring a lot of Provinces. Sure the card trashes (not what you want in Gardens), but it never subtracts the entire hand and you've added +2VP along the way.

IL gives you +1$, so it can still enable middle-road purchasing. You want it when the precise goal is NOT Provinces, but some other tactic...and the card in the kingdom helps enable the possibility of an alternate-victory route. That's called synergy and it tends to make games quite interesting. It would work outstandingly well when coupled with my expansion, because my whole goofy expansion is designed around winning with just $4 and 5$ in your hand and doing so quickly. It's so good for that in fact, I am tempted to steal the damn thing and test it.

My one question is:

Why only trigger it on the buy? Why not gaining? Seems to me this is the exact kind of card you might acquire via an alternate route of acquisition (see my note on Mine up top).

Take my notes with a grain of salt of course, I am a terrible player and don't have a lot of experience, but wanted to weigh in on the topic anyway!

41

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 02:28:54 pm »

"When you are attacked, you may reveal this and discard it.  If you do, +1 VP."

Nice. I can't think of any attack where you bias the game by choosing which next attack might work on you. The only REMOTE possibility I see for political bias here is keeping a strict count of remaining curses...

4 Player Game

Player 1 draws a Hero at the end of his turn
Player 2 plays Witch
Player 1 sees 3 Curses left, deflects the attack and does not discard.
Player 3 & 4 get Curses
Player 3 plays Witch
Player 1 sees 1 Curse left, deflects the attack, then discards for +1VP, player 4 gets a Curse.
Player 4 plays With, no effect

I mean, in the original incantation, you were forced to discard, meaning this is the scenario:

Player 1 draws a Hero at the end of his turn
Player 2 plays Witch
Player 1 sees 3 Curses left, deflects the attack discards for +1VP
Player 3 & 4 get Curses
Player 3 plays Witch
Player 2 gets a Curse
Player 4 plays Witch, no effect

I think it's a pretty minuscule point though. Really, in the first scenario, you gambled and it paid off, and really curse distribution is always a little uneven in multi-player games, because at some point the number left doesn't match the number of players effected.

I can't think of any attack that would have political effects. Masquerade is not an attack. Oh wait, Thief.

Thief creates problems, you can now selectively choose which player gets the potential benefit of a Thief attack.

42

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 01:59:42 pm »

i know you said not to worry about Hero's discard/Estate text but i do. it makes the card overly complex, which makes it seem like a fan card, if you know what i mean. just having the Hero gain +1vp, and then 1 more when defending against an attack is clean and enough. and him being a Hero, i don't think you should need to discard him to defend. this would be a fair card to be able to use against multiple attacks.

It needs to either discarded or be set aside. Otherwise you could endlessly reveal the card to get +1VP, because in DOMINION there's technically no limit to the number of times you can reveal a reaction card. It's weird that DOMINION works that way but it does. One of the reasons is so that you can continually defend against all attacks, there's a good thread on this issue on this forum.

Once you get a bona fide benefit for deflecting the attack, things get complicated (and really I probably shouldn't attempt to do this), But, I think the discard feature might work, although it will more-often deflect the next opponent (and then fail to deflect the next one), it doesn't actually hurt the opponent and most attacks are penalties to opponents. In other words, there's no real politics involved here. Deflecting Militia once, and not the second time doesn't really benefit the opponents. Even curse attacks, (with some small exceptions) it doesn't really matter who gave you the curse, only that you got it.

It weakens the card of course in multi-player games, which is an issue, given its cost, but I don't think it creates a larger problem about politics or bias in a multi-player game.

The gain the estate trick, yeah it is weird. It's there because the expansion could use a cheap source of Estate-piling (to make up for the lack of +buy for one thing). Also a lot of cards in the expansion thirst for green in the hand. It is very tacked on, your point is well taken, and perhaps I can add the Estate-gain feature to another card. It might be better without it. I think you are right.

43

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 12:20:54 pm »

Wooden Bridge

GRADE: F RATING: 0.85 +/- 0.18 RATING POSITION: 21st out of 25 POPULARITY POSITION: 23rd out of 25 BEST COMBO: The truth is, the card didn't work particularly well with any other card in the set. In particular, the card was really dissonant in theme, flavor and ability to the rest of the set. It never really fit in anywhere. It had mild success with Silver Vein, (mostly for the +buy), but really this card was a train wreck. ASSESSMENT: Ever look back on something you've done and wince? Ever look at an old college paper and wonder why and how the prof ever let you get away with it? That's how I feel about Wooden Bridge, quite possibly the worst card I've ever designed (well there's a few others that are really bad that I'll reveal later). Wooden Bridge was an early design, it's not only completely derivative, it does to Bridge what should never be done. It takes away the core feature of price reduction, but then adds the danger of making it non-terminal. Then it allows you to get the main feature back, if you trash the card. The idea was it would produce this mini-game where you'd rush the Wooden Bridge and blow them all up to win, (I think my love of the film Bridge Over River Kwai helped influence me). In theory, with this card, if you rushed 7, got them all out on a single turn and blew them up, you could collect all Provinces in a single swoop. Well what a ridiculous idea to build a card around, and worse it does it by essentially copying verbatim an existing card. YUCK. We tried to pull the trick off several times, in the end, the expansion is too fast and because the set is actually weak on card-draw, you can never pull it off anyway (there's only one really strong terminal-card draw card in the set, and one nice one, but it's mitigated across 2-turns). Even when you do finally get four or five out there and blow them up, most of the Provinces are eaten up, or you are so far behind you lose. The ONLY thing I liked about the card was the gimmick, that all 0-cost cards, got upgraded to 1-cost and you could never get less than 1 for any card. That turned out to be kinda fun (at least interesting). The rest of it was a terrible derivative card, that was against the flavor/theme of the set, with bad art, a bad name and just overall was general suckitude. RECOMMENDATION: Scrap this thing and never mention it again. SUGGESTED VARIANTS So this isn't really a variant, it's an entirely new replacement for the card. For this reason, I'll write a longer intro to the concept than I normally would. One quick note however, is that because this new replacement does not have +buy on it, I'll probably need to add +buy to another card. I want just a few +buy opportunities in the set. There were only 3 in the expansion, and I feel 2 is not enough, so I will find a place to put the +buy on another card. I wanted a thematic card. One of the key themes of the set is that it encourages and rewards greening early. It also has several kingdoms where 3-piling is an optimal strategy (although it doesn't always win, which I also like). In fact, not to sound too arrogant, but I am very proud of how many of our games went, because of the different routes you could take to win. Also victory points are a factor in this expansion, they often tilt the balance with the right cards. Also, I had just removed a full-defensive ability from one of the 2's, and I wanted at least 2 cards that could fully deflect an attack. I wanted a card that gave you a bonus, (in addition to deflecting the attack), but I come up against the way reactions work (they can be revealed endlessly). (This is where I need the most help, although, in general I could use a lot of help with this card) The combination of all these wishes for the card led me to this initial design. Here's the worry I have about the card, right up front. In order to ensure you can't get the additional VP bonus for deflecting an attack, I've made the player discard the card. This causes problems in multi-player games. The player to your left, has a small disadvantage, because his attack is the first one that can get deflected and when it does, the card's primary defense is eliminated. How does on solve the problem? Or is it something I can tolerate? Or is it something that can only be solved with complicated wording and mats (which I want to avoid if possible)? Don't worry about the "gain an Estate" ability for the secondary ability. That's there as part of the set's overall theme. In fact, discarding to gain an Estate has a lot of utility in this expansion. It also helps accommodate the fact I took the +buy away just a little. If you feel strongly the card is broken or weak, let me know as well of course. This has not been play-tested at all. It is purely an artifact of blending elements that the set complements and works with well, rather than careful consideration of balance.

My sincere gratitude in advance of any comments or feedback on this particular report.

44

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion: Ingenuity (temporary name)

« on: November 22, 2011, 11:34:27 am »

Alternate victory cards are some of the funnest to design and test I find.

These are both really cool, well done!

45

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 22, 2011, 09:50:46 am »

Jack: There is indeed another "village clone" in the set, it's in the 4$ range.

pops - You make a good point that you can argue that Villa should be 2$ and Pauper could be 3$. I think because the card rated exactly at 1.0, I'd be a bit foolish to mess with the pricing. The card has merit, when there's an obvious path to green early, and after that, it is sometimes the only +2 actions in the Kingdom. After that, yeah, the card is not worth it. You have been really great here, reading the cards and providing feedback, I am very grateful.

My next card needs serious work, I'll look forward to your comments on it.

46

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 21, 2011, 10:13:54 pm »

Forgive the rapid pace of me presenting these reports, some cards I really am okay with as-is or with just the smallest of revisions, slamming through these allows me to get to cards I need greater support with:

Villa

GRADE: B RATING: 1.0 +/- 0.1 RATING POSITION: 16th out of 25 POPULARITY POSITION: 11th out of 25 BEST COMBO: This expansion's version of a "Smithy+Village" combo were these two cards put together. Actually, Fool's Choice is a tad broken (more on that later), but this combo probably wasn't as exploited as often as it should have been, and it had all the same problems of a Village+Smithy strategy and all the same benefits. It was a "nice" and rather obvious combination, and the best-rated combo for Villa in the expansion. ASSESSMENT: This card's appeal was generally higher than its performance. You can see why, the card looks decent. You can get a +2 Actions, +1$ and up to +2 cards (for discarding cards that you don't want probably). You get it for 3 dollars, so you think, "okay I'll bite". Except of course, now you need to green, because if you don't, this card doesn't get you very far. The card was sometimes the only +2 Actions in the Kingdom, and this was part of the reason its popularity is higher than its actual rating. The rating itself is neutral, which really is true when you dig deeper in the data. This card sometimes enabled some games, and other times it really didn't. We tended to ignore the card more as our testing went on, and gravitated to it when we knew greening early made tactical sense. But the card isn't useless and the card isn't broken and it did, at times, enable some nice combinations. It's the kind of card you want in your expansion, that is to say that it has utility, it is simple to enforce and understand and it isn't overpowered or broken. For a 3$ basic card, that's just fine. It's another 'boring' card in many ways, but +2 Actions are needed and this provides that, it's just a "village-type", I think every set needs one of those  right? RECOMMENDATION: I will just adjust the art work and leave the rest as is. SUGGESTED VARIANTS The current variant on the table for review for this card is this. It only has an artwork revision, that's it.

Feel free to comment if you like, but the next 3$ (that I post tomorrow) is a complete overhaul of a bad card, so that will be the one I'll really need to most support/advice for.

47

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 21, 2011, 10:02:50 pm »

I'm really liking the new art for the cards, and would like to know where you're getting these illustrations. Also, I just want to add that an excursion usually involves a larger group of people, not just one person. Nothing against the new art used for Excursion -- it's lovely. I just think a group of people shown in the artwork would fit the theme of the name better.

Ha, we think alike! Alas, I couldn't find decent art that fits. Sometimes it's not just a nice drawing, its getting a drawing that when re-sized frames nicely in the card.

DeviantArt.com has been where I've found most of the images by the way. The cards look pretty decent when I print them out too, so thanks for noticing that!

48

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 21, 2011, 08:34:37 pm »

Not overpowered, not underpowered, but a little bit boring.

Not boring enough to scrap through.  Buying estates in order to feed it is amusing.

Yeah a tad boring to be sure, but in a way that's part of what makes the card weird, because it looks more banal than it is (at least in terms of utility). Of course, its utility was hard-wired into the expansion. That's part of the problem with my testing, I don't have the capacity to test these cards across multiple expansions, so a card's utility is judged almost entirely with how it functioned with the rest of the expansion.

Here are just a few cards in the set that Excursion helps:





So yeah, boring card, but it has some synergy with how the overall expansion is designed. I think that's part of the expansion's flaw though, its too damn "cute", it has obvious combinations, but each card on its own is often isolated or weak without its regular companions.

I concede that as a flaw, but I accept it, since, well its my first damn time ever designing a set of cards for this game. I can work on greater subtlety and flare in the next expansion, basic utility, function and a general sense of balance were the goals for this one.

Thanks for your comments and yeah, "boring" is pretty much right on the money to describe the card.

49

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 21, 2011, 06:10:52 pm »

I'll leave commentary on the individual cards to brighter minds than mine.

I will say I am very pleased you've started testing and that your testing revealed all kinds of cool data for you. I am really excited about this, because I eventually want to discuss HOW to test cards, and discuss what methods yielded good test data and what did not - and how best to track how a card fared.

I test a lot, but I am still unsure if my testing methods are really as stringent or as valid as they could be. The more people who actually test their variants and share their test methods, the better I think we can all be at testing them.

50

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 21, 2011, 04:16:43 pm »

EXCURSION

GRADE:  A RATING: 1.23 +/- 0.11 RATING POSITION: 5th out of 25 POPULARITY POSITION: 15th out of 25 BEST COMBO: This combo had a high victory percentage. The reasoning here is that both cards set you up nicely for turns 4-6, trimming your deck superbly for a nifty tight configuration. The Pauper's Feast gets out of the way, while the Excursion is a non-terminal cantrip, so it isn't really harmful after its done the main task of trashing your Estates. ASSESSMENT: I hesitate to give this an "A". It worked well, but it wasn't that popular. However, the success of the card was undeniable and its utility was obvious on certain boards. I gave it an "A" because it really seemed to be more valuable than it looks. I liked that about this card. It's a great card in the early rounds *if* you happen to draw it when there's estates in the discard pile (it is terribly frustrating when you get it with an empty discard pile). It also combined well with Dark Knight and it helped augment Pauper (the light chapel-like trasher in the set). It was a nice defense to when your opponent forced Estates on you (there was a card in the set that could do this). You could also discard a victory/action card on discard attacks, knowing you could fish it back out again when your turn commenced. There were a few Victory/Action hybrids in this set, so it shined when there was one in the kingdom. This card had value, but it has far less value than the rating demonstrates. The popularity rating of the card was more indicative of this card's strength and weakness: on some boards it makes great sense, and other times, it's a wasted purchase and lies dead. That means its not really an "A" card, but because it wasn't broken and served the testing well, I give it an "A". RECOMMENDATION: I am just making a cosmetic change with this one. I updated the verbiage a little to make it clear the victory card you trashed has to be the one you picked up from the discard pile (this was always the card's intent and how we play-tested it, but the wording now makes that abundantly clear). I also updated the artwork from photograph to art. SUGGESTED VARIANTS This is not really a variant, it's just an update to verbiage and art: Feel free to discuss the card if you like, but I'll move quickly forward, there's other cards I need real help with (this one tested pretty well).