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Messages - tristan

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26
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Admiral
« on: December 10, 2016, 09:02:59 am »
The suggestion that gaining the card is more of a detriment than a benefit is like saying that Throne Room is better than Disciple, because Disciple could cause you to clog your deck with the card you are throning.
This is nonsense. As always it depends on the Kingdom.

If you prince a Smithy you get 3 extra cards at every turn from then on. If you admiral a Smithy you only get 3 extra cards for this turn but you get the Smithy into your deck.
In a Kingdom with no villages you would definitely prefer to prince the Smithy whereas in a Kingdom with villages or lots of cheap non-terminals you would rather have Admiral.


27
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Project cards--level them up
« on: December 09, 2016, 02:58:19 am »
Entourage seems extremly weak. YOu'd have to invest two times in it and then buy the card, i.e. spent 3x 4$, in order to get a Peddler which can gain a 2$.
Same with Boom Town, you'd have to spend 3X 4$ just in order to have one Village.
Arsonist is also far too weak, you'd have to spend 3X 5$ just to have a weaker Legionary and in addition to that everybody might be deterred from investing into it because their levels can be decreased.
Sunken City is also far too weak. You have to spend 4 for a Lost City and an additional 4$ every time you wanna use it again.
Same with Ore, you'd have to spend 3x 6$ just in order to have one Gold in your deck.

Cards like Initiate, Smelty, Tithe or Memorial are interesting.

The general idea is cool but many of the actual cards are too weak.

28
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: What if all piles scaled with players?
« on: December 09, 2016, 02:42:34 am »
We all know Victory cards scale with more players - it's 8 cards in a pile for 2 players, and 12 if you have more.  This is ostensibly to have more to go around for all players.  How would they game be affected if Actions and Treasures also scaled that way?  Say, 10 for 2-player, 12 for 3, 16 for 4, or something like that.
I actually scale my own split piles fan cards according to player count. Probably got the idea because I never ever saw Plunder or Rocks in my games.

29
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Admiral
« on: December 09, 2016, 02:39:16 am »

This seems quite better than prince.
Yay not only do i have a princed band of misfits I also have a princed workshop.
It is not strictly better than Prince. For example if you Prince Smithy you have the equivalence of 3 Labs at the start of very turn whereas with Admiral you would have to clog your decks with Smithies in order to get the same effect.
Of course you can easily imagine a situation in which gaining and autoplaying a 4 every turn is better than just having a Princed card. Easiest scenario is again a Kingdom with Smithy but also Village.

So it is hard to say whether this is better or weaker than Prince. I'd worry more about the piledriving.

30
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 09, 2016, 02:33:13 am »
So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.
I've actually reread the whole thing and I didn't see where someone said this. Must of missed it, can you enlighten me as to where it is?

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.
This is simply factually wrong. The mere presence of Pesant does in no way guarantee that you will always draw your entire deck. As always it depends on the Kingdom. Which is all I have been saying here but seemingly it is very controversial and everybody else believes that the value of a card, or a Traveller line, is absolute and not relative to the other cards.

For example in a game with Pesant, junking, no trashing and no non-terminal draw (or either no villages or no terminal drawers) you will definitely not draw your entire deck.
Of course traces is right that you often want more Action cards. In thin decks or decks that already draw themselves Hireling is bad.
But e.g. in a junking intense game with 40 card decks the marginal benefit of an extra Action is relatively small compared to the marginal benefit of a permaduration like Hireling.


31
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 08, 2016, 09:14:08 am »
So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
Of course you sometimes draw your entire deck but the rule ignoramus made an unconditional claim about Disciple working every turn which is plain nonsense. The mere presence of Peasant does in no way guarantee that you always draw your entire deck. It does, as always, depend on the Kingdom.
Of course he explicitly made that rule-ignoring claim in order to pretend that Disciple works every turn like Hireling whereas it does in fact only work once per shuffle.

This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.

32
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague Doctor and Alternate Curses
« on: December 08, 2016, 03:51:00 am »
Looks interesting, especially as it avoids the typical fan card problem of making alt-Curses supernasty.
Do you intend the alt-Curses to be roughly equivalent in strength to normal Curses such that you can always substitute the Curse with the alt-Curse pile or do you, as you wrote, just want this to be balanced with particular junkers, Hexers?

33
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 08, 2016, 03:45:36 am »
So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

34
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 06:52:07 pm »
I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.
Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules. Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.  ::)

35
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 06:27:49 pm »
There is a pretty grass error in there: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.
Not sure if your aware but disciple stays out with the hireling so unless if you are doing trash from play and gain from trash shenanigans you won't get a new hireling per shuffle.

Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.

36
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 06:19:55 pm »
Chill. Also, don't delete posts - you should think enough beforehand to be able to own what you say, even if you regret it afterwards.

You will never Disciple a Hireling in a real properly played game. There are really three cases:

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.
Gotta disagree, the game was real and we played properly.

There is a gross error: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.

I only faintly recall the game but the Traveller line was used intensively, i.e. there was at least another Disciple or Fugitive in my deck so the opportunity cost of giving a Disciple up wasn't as high as in other games. A perma-handsize increase from 5 to 7 definitely matters without trashing and was more valuable than getting more Action cards.
Again, whether extra Action cards or an increased handsize are better cannot be determined unconditionally but d epends on the Kingdom.
Of course in a thin deck you want more cards in your deck and not draw more cards; in a thin deck Hireling is weak so Disciple+Hireling is weak as well.

37
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 05:58:19 pm »
Nothing like constantly changing what you actually mean and blaming me for it. :D

38
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 05:49:58 pm »
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Unlikely. Nobody is wrong about everything, not even a reactionary guy like you.  8)

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
Nope. As usual such unconditional claims are wrong. Disciple can be better than KC but if the Grand Market pile is empty I'd rather have a KC than a Disciple.
Kinda funny that one side in this debate is making these ridiculous absolutist claims and totally ignores the main point of Dominion, the main reason the game is interesting: that the relative strength of cards always depends on the Kingdom.

39
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 05:34:26 pm »
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?


I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
Huh? Judging the power level of Disciple has nothing to do with how hard it is to get. That's would be the cost side of the equation.
You also might wanna make up your mind whether Disciple is better or worse than KC. Because in that line you say first that it is worse and then that it is better than KC.

40
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 04:26:42 pm »
I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

41
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 07, 2016, 06:27:35 am »
If you actually think that is even remotely as good as Discipling, let's say, a Lab I wouldn't know how to convince you. But I don't think you will find anyone else here who thinks this is anything but bad.
If you Disciple a Hireling you get two extra cards in all future turns and another Hireling at the cost of Disciple being permanently out of play. This is a powerful effect at a high cost and it worked great in the one game in which I played thus.

Now I am not claiming that this is always good. Hireling is only good if you get it early and you if that "lost Disciple" is the only one you got it could be very dubious as you might want another Disciple around or finally get to Teacher.
Disciple is not per se better or worse than Hireling, their relative strength depends on several factors. If you have several cards in the Peasant line in your deck and hit that Hireling early with Disciple the relative strength of both cards is tilted towards Hireling so giving up a Disciple for a throned Hireling and anoteher Hireling is good.

In short, your unconditional claim that discipling the most powerful Duration in the game is always bad is preposterous.

42
Rules Questions / Re: Games that never end
« on: December 07, 2016, 03:39:13 am »
A log would suffice. The likelihood of a perfect mirror in a Kingdom with Bishop and Fortress is as high as that of a perfect mirror in any other Kingdom: quasi zero.
Actually if it is just a close mirror it can lead to stale-mate because if you try to end the game the other person just get a points lead.

As long as you are generating more points than your opponent, you can play for an arbitrarily long time until one of you has a safe enough cushion to attempt to end the game. Only if you both generate identical amounts of points is the game unresolvable.
That's kinda what i meant by close mirror. It is not that unlikely to split one pile. The fortresses can be substituted by any other village.

Um... the Fortresses cannot be replaced in the Bishop/Fortress golden deck.  That deck must have 4 Bishops and 4 (or more) Fortresses to work.
This is wrong. As Bishop is terminal you gotta play a village for each Bishop you play in order to trigger Bishop/Fortress numerous times and this is why you can PARTIALLY substitute Fortress with another Village.
The golden deck doesn't require 4 Fortresses, one Fortress which you constantly trash and get back would suffice.

In practical games players get many Fortresses because no other village might be around, because you wanna take them away from the other playera nd so on.

43
Rules Questions / Re: Games that never end
« on: December 05, 2016, 04:00:49 pm »
A log would suffice. The likelihood of a perfect mirror in a Kingdom with Bishop and Fortress is as high as that of a perfect mirror in any other Kingdom: quasi zero.

44
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« on: December 05, 2016, 03:51:37 pm »
you give up your disciple for another hireling?
For a throned Hireling and another Hireling? Of course.

45
Dominion Articles / Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« on: December 05, 2016, 03:33:30 pm »
Also, it should be noted that you don't want to use Disciple on Durations.
Hireling disagrees.

46
Thanks for catching that; Dwarven Miner should say "your Clean-up phase".
About why Wine Harvest is an Action, read the OP.
About Baths, while it could be overpowered it, or any other Gathering card, is hardly a substitute for greening.

47
Rules Questions / Re: Games that never end
« on: December 05, 2016, 07:27:24 am »
In Prosperity there was one major exception -  Monument.  This card could gain points infinitely without causing the game to end.  In practice, this never comes up because it's too slow compared to other point gaining options.  Later, once cards could be gained out of the trash, an edge case entered with Bishop as well.    First with monument, and later via a combo with Bishop, it's possible to gain points forever without actually ending the game.
Possible yes, best strategy, no.

Even in a Kingdom which includes Bishop and Fortress you will start to green someday if you are ahead in VPs. If you don't the game won't end and you won't win.
Many folks worry that cantrip VP token gainers could lead to infinte games but the same argument applies: if you are ahead in VPs you gotta start to green to win the game so the game will actually end. If it doesn't somebody is not intending to win which is plain stupid and doesn't require a rule change.

Empires is totally fine rulewise and actually significantaly opens up the strategic space of Dominion. In a normal game you gotta consider when to start buying Provinces, in alt-VP you gotta consider the relative strength of an alternative Victory card to Prosperity and in Empires you gotta potentially evaluate the strength of several sources of VPs.
Note that all official VP token gaining cards are precisely designed such that they don't work ad infinitum, Groundskeeper is tied to greening and Landmarks are either limited or reward you for having particular cards in your deck which will lead to a 3 pile ending.

48
8 Debt is roughly similar to 6 Coins and a cantrip VP token gainer is probably a very good 5 and together with the attack even better.
I think that Charon is weak without an empty pile and good once one is empty. Kinda like City. If it turns out to be too strong I gotta get rid of the idea altogether, pricing this at 10D is no way to balance it.

49
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« on: December 04, 2016, 05:33:20 am »
A fully optimized Village-Smithy Village-Smithy Village-Smithy play is equivalent to 6 Labs (+12 cards, +1 Action.)

A fully optimized Village-Village-Cipher Village-Village-Cipher is strictly better than 6 Labs (You draw 16 cards, topdeck/discard 4, +1 Action), cheaper per card, uses the same amount of cards, but is slightly harder to setup (the order matters more, but you're going to have more Villages in your deck, so it's not as hard as it seems.)
Totally agree with you on this. The caveat is that it is incredibly hard to set up. Even with Village and Smithy you wanna "overvillage" precisely because it is hard to make the two cards turn up in a hand of 5.
In the case of Cipher, if the other player notices that you go for that he could just spite-buy villages away from you and in a 3P game you might only end up with 3 villages.

So this is the problem of Cipher, you need a massive village density to make the card really shine and this take time to set up and is also easily thwarted by the other player. It makes a huge difference whether you make "small steps" with one village and one terminal draw ... or whether you need two villages and a massive terminal draw like Cipher in your starting hand.

50
Charon doesn't encourage the game to end. Get a trashing card of some kind and just play a bunch of Charons for as much VP as you can.
Given that Charon does nothing for your economy this is hard to set up. Charon does after all only turn into a cantrip once a pile is empty.
It is something to watch out for and I will of course have to test this in 3P games.

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