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2751
Dominion Articles / Re: Playing Against Possession
« on: September 15, 2011, 07:21:45 pm »
That is is all interesting advice. Previously when I'd played I tried to both get Possessions AND have a good deck to buy Provinces with. Now I think I'll know to look for ways to get away with buying just Possessions and playing them a lot, trimming my deck so that the other guy can't buy Provinces with my deck and getting points with VPs, OR ignore it entirely, but be wary of the middle ground and avoid it.

2752
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 15, 2011, 04:15:37 pm »
You know, maybe a good nerf to possession would be to allow the victim to choose to discard his hand before being possessed?

A choice of "let my opponent play a 5 card hand" no matter how bad it may be will never be chosen when the other option is "let my opponent play a 0 card hand".

I think the intent was "Discard your hand and draw a hand of 5 new cards". Still, it would change around a *lot* of the interaction with things like Council Room, top-deck attacks, and so on.

It would be a pretty fundamental change to Possession, not a minor one. As it is, you're getting what is, on average, and average hand of your opponent. If there was a "discard-and-redraw" step before the Possession, you'd be getting a below-average hand, since they have the chance to discard a good one. 

2753
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Solving the Good Curse Card problem?
« on: September 15, 2011, 03:14:34 pm »
This isn't making the mundane cards more expensive; those are still the same price as they always were.

This is introducing a new card, which has the same power as a preexisting card AS WELL AS some extra potential benefit, at the expense of higher cost. There is nothing wrong with that.

Compare: Village to (Workers Village, Mining Village, City, etc.) Compare Market to Grand Market. Compare Throne Room to King's Court. Hell, compare copper to silver to gold to platinum, or estate to duchy to province to colony. Smithy to Nobles. And so on and so forth. This game is filled with examples where a more expensive card has a strictly better power than a cheaper card and yet they all get used, and work fine.

From this point of view, it is perfectly all right to have a card which is a cursing village, cost 4 or 5, +1 card +2 actions, you may gain a curse, if you do extra stuff happens.  Or a card that is +1 card +1 action, you may gain a curse for [some benefit]. Or, in general, a card that is "Some vanilla stuff, you may gain a curse for something more exciting."

There may or may not be balance issues with this, but that wasn't your point.

2754
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 15, 2011, 02:39:44 pm »
Yeah, I've definitely had some of those.

1) I draw a hand with three green cards in it. I do nothing useful with it.
2) I draw a great hand with all my good stuff! It gets possessed.
3) I draw a hand with three green cards in it. I do nothing useful with it.

Really annoying.

2755
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Favorite Curse style
« on: September 15, 2011, 02:38:43 pm »
I like standard curses.

The reason I like them isn't because they give -1 vp, or because they clog up your deck permanently. Nothing wrong with being able to trash them all.

It's that they slow the game down long enough for engines to be viable. In a standard province game, Big Money variants are *fast*. Curses make everyone be stuck at the 4-6 range for a lot longer, giving more of an opportunity to build up an engine that will kick in to gear by the time the curses get trashed, and rewarding engines that can find the trashers/curses faster over standard BM decks.

The other options don't really have much to do with this. They all introduce an extra mechanic for cards to use - a penalty in exchange for, presumably, more card power. Whether this is interesting or not depends on the balance of these hypothetical cards. These might be interesting, or might not be.

2756
Dominion General Discussion / Re: forcing a tie?
« on: September 15, 2011, 03:07:19 am »
We could. But where would be the fun in that?

2757
Dominion General Discussion / Re: forcing a tie?
« on: September 14, 2011, 10:30:31 pm »
Philosophically - a win is better than a tie, a tie is better than a loss.

Less philosophically - it's your game, play it however you feel like. The rulebook doesn't call it a tie, it says that "both players rejoice in their shared victory", so you can interpret it that way if you like.

More practically - make an estimate based on how well you think you're doing. In MOST cases I would guess that it's better to take the tie - after all, afterwards, your opponent has the first chance to take the lead and you're playing catchup. They've got a one-turn advantage and are likely to win. (If you had the chance to end the game with a tie, with an equal hand they have the option to end the game with a win).

There may be exceptions (say, your engine just got going and they have a BM deck and can't end the game on piles like you can, or you just had a KC->attack turn and saboteured/swindled/otherwise crippled their engine cards, or you've been counting cards and know they have a bad hand, or something) but in general I *think* the tie is the most beneficial option. (Better players, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

2758
Dominion Isotropic / Re: veto mode stats
« on: September 14, 2011, 07:10:39 pm »
I'm very tempted to Veto library if there's cellar, warehouse, or hamlet on the board. Cycling with those and library are valid strategies, but they take so-friggin-LONG in terms of pure number of clicks required to go through an average turn.

2759
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Requests
« on: September 14, 2011, 03:31:10 pm »
I always just do random veto. If the other person didn't care then they'd also do random veto and it would be the same as if neither of us had done veto mode.

2760
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 13, 2011, 09:05:59 pm »
What makes Swindler high-variance, it seems, would be

1) Based on shuffle luck, it can have a huge effect. If I swindle your first five-cost card into a duchy (or swindle away your potion in a game with critical potion-cost cards, etc), whereas your swinder hits my estate (discarding it from the top of my deck and replacing it with an estate, helping me instead of hurting me), that can make or break a game.
2) It comes out immediately. You can't try to "be better" than the other guy by getting to Swindler first, and you can't really try to prepare your deck to be hit by a swindler, because it's an opening card. Comes out too early for you to really do anything about it besides hope that your swindler hits better cards than theirs.
 

The way variance seems to be typically used here is on a whole-game level. In a game, usually the better player is going to win. However, cards that make the game more random will tend to make the worse player win more often - hence, increasing the variance in the result. That's not necessarily the same as cards that have a very different expected value from turn to turn. (KC, for example, can facilitate *very* different turns - you might use a KC->KC start to have a 100-point mega-turn, or you might draw it dead. But typically, since setting up the KC->KC mega-turn takes a lot of setup, it's the better player that will get their KC-KC->support set up first, making the variance in the game result due to the presence of KC pretty low. )

I'm definitely looking forward to that article WW mentioned, or to playing some Possession games with people... it feels to me like Possession is high-variance in all those respects; you might get a province turn or you might discard a 2-coin hand for them (and vice versa), but apparently better players than I disagree, so there's something I'm missing.

2761
Simulation / Re: Crazy Idea: Genetic Algorithm for Dominion Simulator?
« on: September 13, 2011, 05:23:28 pm »
Commando, you may be thinking of a neural network instead of a genetic algorithm. Though they can go together, I suppose.

They are similar in that they are both proposed as solutions to all sorts of various problems; the problems are similar only in that we don't know how to do them. "Neural Network" and "Genetic Algorithm" are imagined as little magic bullets which you can throw at a problem of unknown complexity with unknown solutions which you don't understand, and still get out a winning answer.

I don't think it works that way.

In my humble opinion, talking about genetic algorithms is putting the cart before the horse, just a little.

They're a good way of finding local maxima in a search space. But to do that, you have to define the search space first. You have to figure out how to represent a "strategy" in dominion as a set of "genes" that can be "mutated" or can do "crossover" and so on and so forth, in such a way that it's expressive enough to capture the various ways Dominion could be played, without overly broadening it to include the vastly, vastly larger number of ways that the Dominion rules can be used to go nowhere.

And that's just as hard if not harder. Look at your own example. "The coefficients would be given, for example, for every variable that might be important..." ...but defining what variables are important is the crux of the problem in the first place. On a board, you have what, 17 piles? So if you have a variable for how many of each are in [your deck, opponent's deck, your discard, opponent's discard,  the trash, various mats] that's already overwhelming. Some of them are interchangeable in some ways (if there's more than one village around) but not for all purposes (trash-for-benefit). They interact in various ways - sometimes you want to make a buy decision based on some complex function numbers of cards in your deck (do I have enough villages to support my card-drawing engine cards in my engine deck? If I get an extra terminal, how likely is it to collide with a current one in my money deck?). And those have to be calculated separately for buying and trashing (and discarding in response to attacks) and so on. If you put in variables and coefficients for even a fraction of the different possible interactions, you've got an exponential explosion, especially as you're trying to find the best ones by essentially a biased random walk.

If you figure that out - how to represent a Dominion strategy in a compact and yet expressive way, that can be modified by a genetic algorithm or by any other form of machine learning - yeah, you're well on your way. But that's the hard part. Not coding the learning algorithm itself. Saying "genetic algorithm!" brings you little closer to an actual solution.

The original post was more possible - use something like that for incrementally modifying a predefined strategy. On the other hand, such a limited problem space makes any sort of fancy tech just not worth it  - look, if you want to know when's the optimal time to start buying duchies, there's a limited number of options, just try them all in the simulator.

There's such a narrow range between "trivial enough  that's it's not worth getting fancy" and "complex enough that even a fancy solution gets nowhere", unless you're more sophisticated about what you're doing than just throwing a generic machine learning technique at the problem. 

2762
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 13, 2011, 01:46:41 pm »
There's an article http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/, but I haven't found it particularly helpful yet.

...hmm, apparently according to the numbers it's not like I'm particularly *bad* with Possession, I have ever so slightly positive effect with and effect without. That surprises me.

2763
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 13, 2011, 12:07:22 pm »
Definitely. I haven't the faintest idea of what to do with it; I've lost games where I get the first Possession and Possess people more times, or I've won them, and it feels entirely luck-based but that probably means I'm just missing how to play those...

2764
Dominion Articles / Re: Card Strategy: Wharf
« on: September 12, 2011, 07:09:06 pm »
Would Isotropic allow such a bot? I'm tempted to put one together.

2765
Simulation / Re: Dominion Simulator available for download!
« on: September 09, 2011, 12:51:28 pm »
At 10,000 games, the margin of error is already pretty darn small...

2766
Dominion Isotropic / Re: KC/Possession sportsmanship question
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:33:03 am »
The score doesn't matter; each game is counted as win or loss, nothing more. Take the province.

2767
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Am I reading this board correctly?
« on: September 01, 2011, 01:10:48 am »
Hm. I just tried a few sample games and you're right, I've been getting gardens way too early. Thanks for the advice. 

It seems like it's possible to get >40 cards (and >40 points) and end the game in 15 turns.

2768
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Am I reading this board correctly?
« on: August 31, 2011, 11:34:21 pm »
To summarize - it only takes one powered-up mega-city goons turn to get more points than the entire gardens deck, and iw/gardens can't  seem to empty three piles fast enough to prevent that, especially since by trying to empty piles, you set up the level 2 and 3 cities. (Even when rrenaud played the iw side and I played the city side, and I'm pretty sure that I played the cities sort of amateurishly.)

2769
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Am I reading this board correctly?
« on: August 31, 2011, 04:11:37 pm »
Well, I'll be around at that time, and would be happy to help you guys test this thing if you don't get the number of people you need. I'm not that good though, hopefully I wouldn't mess things up by misplaying strategies.

2770
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Am I reading this board correctly?
« on: August 31, 2011, 03:42:02 pm »
I haven't found that bishop really counters IW/G that hard, as long as the IW/G player knows how to finesse it properly. In fact, I'm quite sure that in 2P, this is the dominant strategy. Adding the extra player(s) might change something, but I'd guess a straight city/goons is too slow unless maybe somebody else is bishopping.

So, I'm curious - what do you mean by finessing it properly? I'm just having a hard time seeing what adjustments IW/G would make in response to bishoping. I don't really know much about gardens finesse or what it means...

2771
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Make "Bad" Cards Shine!
« on: August 31, 2011, 01:04:06 am »
      ... nlloyd puts 10 cards back on the deck.
      ... lovin2 puts 10 cards back on the deck.

Did that turn start with crazy KC->KC->Council room shenanigans or something? I've yet to ever experience having 13 cards in hand during my opponent's turn...

2772
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Newb Questions
« on: August 26, 2011, 06:34:45 pm »
1. I think I figured out reasonable strategies for all of the basic deck types, the basic set ships with, except the one marked "Village Square". There were so many options, I could pick the right one. What's the best strategy? I went with Remodel mostly and really suffered. Is the best three cards to focus on in this set, Village, Throne Room, Market? Here's the list, if you've forgotten the set... http://dominiondeck.com/games/village-square

I'll start by answering your question with a question - have you tried "Smithy Big Money"? Or "Big Money" in general?

If you're new, you might not have heard the term, but "Big Money" is a strategy where you pretty much buy nothing but coins. Whenever you can, buy a  province; whenever you can't do that, buy a gold; whenever you can't do that, buy a silver. "Smithy big money" is a strategy where you buy ONE smithy, and the rest money.

These look really simple, but are surprisingly powerful. BM gets you to four provinces by turn 17-18 or so, Smithy+BM gets you to four provinces by turn 14 or so. It is a common newbie mistake to focus too much on all the cool actions and combos that you can do and forget that these decks take quite a few turns to set up. Especially in just the base set, in a reasonable number of randomly-chosen sets, it makes sense to go for pure money plus a small number of actions (so you rarely/never draw more than one in hand at a time) to shore it up rather than trying to get your actions to chain. Sometimes, when you're not sure what to do, feel free to try going for silver, gold, and just one or two terminal actions. You'll be surprised at how well that does, especially against players who get carried away with too many villages.

That said, in that deck, what looks reasonable is festival/library/cellar. Festival and cellar both DECREASE your hand size; festival gives you coins and +actions; library lets you draw back up to 7 after you've played cellars and festivals for coins and not have much left in hand. 

I'll also comment on the cards that you picked out as "the best to focus on" at first glance, because they're really not that good.
Village is always "safe" to have - you feel like you always draw a card with it, so there's no harm, right? Well, there IS harm - in the turns it took to buy the villages! Those could be spent to buy things that give you coins, like silver.

Throne room LOOKS really cool - you play another card twice! But with so many things around that give +actions anyway, and without any standout amazing hard-to-get card that you really want to double-play, throne room turns out to be no better than whatever else you have in your hand, and you might as well just get more of other things and not risk drawing throne room with nothing good to throne room. It's a support card for an engine here, but it's not that easy to fit in to one, since early on (when you're getting $4-size hands) it's dangerous to buy it because you might draw it as your only action (and if you're drawing $4, you probably need a silver or two to get you up to drawing $5), but later on (when you're always getting actions in-hand) youre likely to be getting $5 which could be spent on festivals.

Market is good but unremarkable. With libraries around, it's better to have festivals because you'll draw cards with library. It doesn't harm, but it doesn't help as much as you think.

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2. I love games with Chapel in them and really prefer dense, tight decks. I get burned with the thief on them a lot, or any game where there's an attack and no defense. Is a Chapel deck not worth it, if the Witch or Thief is in play, and there's no defense to it.

Chapel is awesome! It does carry risks when thief is around and you're going for lots of money. But, in general, it is really good for setting up *any* deck to be what you want it to be, to get rid of those initial estates and coppers as fast as possible. 

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3. I win a lot with the Witch, but now my wife is learning fast and giving me a taste of my own medicine. If there's no Chapel or Moat, it seems like its a race to acquire and play Witch as much as possible. Does this seem right?

That seems quite right.

Even more so, really. In a game with Moat, it's STILL a race to acquire and play witch as much as possible. When your witch gets through the moats, it's still effective. And curses really suck to have in your deck! And, to make it worse, moats aren't that good cards to have in your deck either. So even with moats around, witch is amazing.

In a game with Chapel, playing Witch more will make your opponent waste time chapeling away curses instead of doing more useful things with his actions. Still good.

Witch is amazing and one of the best attacks in the game, INCLUDING all expansions.

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4. I recently played a Lab vs. Chapel game. It was about the most fun I've had. My opponent bought a ton of labs and other cards, I went chapel with just one lab and a smithy and tried to keep the deck dense as I could. I added Great Hall and Nobles at the end, as I acquired Provinces. I won, but barely. I know it depends on the other cards in the set, but in general does a dense deck tend to beat a deck that's wide but has a prolific engine (Lab deck)?

I mean, usually a deck with less useless junk (estates, coppers) is going to be better - a chapeled-away deck with lots of laboratories is better than a large deck with lots of laboratories, but whether it's worth the actions to trim it down and how far you want to trim it down depends on what else you could be doing with those actions/buys.  For example, a hamlet-library engine works fine with a large deck with lots of stuff, because you just hamlet it away and library to redraw to find your golds.  Laboratory engines, since they increase handsize, are pretty okay with somewhat larger decks. Big Money just needs your average hand value to be above 8, so it's fine with some junk around as long as it's counterbalanced by golds. Other engines (e.g. conspirator engines) really REALLY need a deck to stay pretty trimmed, or if you're going for a draw-your-entire-deck-in-hand-each-turn game you probably can't afford to draw a late-game hand of copper, silver, estate, province, terminal.


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5. I find a LOT of games, come down to the last few hands. I run into 3-3 province splits a lot, (especially with my wife or on BoardGameArena). Then it becomes a dance of Duthies and having the guts to buy the penultimate province, and most especially getting the perfect draw on those last two or three hands. Is this common? It seems like one unfortunate draw near the end is often the difference.

It happens. I've had a game end on estates! Where nobody was willing to buy the penultimate province, and then nobody was willing to buy the penultimate duchy (but we had both greened up our decks to the point where we couldn't buy provinces), and two other piles were gone, so it ended on estates.

But it's not just luck. I actually had a game with Jimmm.... from these forums where we had a game like that which he won. If I remember correctly, we both went for money-based decks, but picked different strategies for "a card to keep our deck going once there's lots of green in it." It might have looked like luck - we both went for mostly money with one chapel and one support card, then went 3-3 on provinces, then started buying duchies, then estates, and then Jimm got a few "lucky" hands and got the 5-3 province split, but it wasn't really luck, it's that he picked a better support card and could pull out provinces when I couldn't.

It happens less once you get powerful engines that can draw your whole deck with multiple buys - in that case, it comes down to who can get their engine set up first rather than who can get the last province. But it still happens. It also would happen less if I could just recognize that last moment I could safely buy a province and not have my opponent immediately snatch up the last one, because our decks are filled with duchies. But that's also hard.

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6. Isotropic murders me. Murder. Not even close. It's because the sets are so varied and stuff like potions and colonies mess me up pretty badly (not to mention any Saboteur game, I LOATHE that card). I choose "base" as a bias, but often still get cards from various expansion. Also I seem to always get matched with players who KICK my ass...do not want to chat...and seem not only unsympathetic to newbies, but enjoy kicking them hard. I had heard the opposite, that Isotropic was full of great players who not only enjoy the game, but enjoy being an evangelist and supporter for it to new players.

Sorry 'bout your experience :/

I suppose I don't really talk much when I'm just on isotropic, a glhf at the beginning of the game and a gg at the end, sometimes a comment or two during the game if I find something particularly amusing or frustrating. Re: saboteur - usually, saboteur is just a minor nuisance... but if your opponent sets up a deck where they draw their whole deck in hand and throne room a saboteur every turn or something, that is really vicious and shuts you down entirely. 

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My question on Isotropic is:

a) I had heard there was a way to solo (practice) on the site, but couldn't find a button or outlet to do it. Is it true? How does one do that?

Just click "propose game" with no other players checked. It'll say "so-and-so has proposed a solitaire game" and you'll just get a game with only yourself.

For that, you can also use the controls at the bottom to not just 'bias' the selection, but to specify which cards or what sets you want. (For example, you can select '10 out of 10 cards from Base' to only play the base set, or '10 out of 10 from base', 'chapel' if you want to specifically practice that.)

I know when I started on isotropic I spent a while just playing solitaire games to get the feel for the place and for the game.

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b) Is there a way to constrain the auto-match to players of your level?


There is not.

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Thanks in advance for any answers and also for reading. I have read the main article on base set strategy, if there are others out there, (or better yet if you've written one about base set), I'd love to read it. I was thinking of writing an article on a newb's experience with the game, not as a strategy article, more of a "here's how to get hooked on a great game" kind of article.

You're welcome, and welcome to Dominion!

If I'm around (ftl or savfan104) feel free to message me and propose a game, we can play and I can try to give you some tips. I'm not that great - I know lots of other people on this forum and on Isotropic are far better than me - but I've been able to maintain a 50% winrate on Isotropic automatch, so I'm probably  about the level of those players who you say "murder" you on the site and would probably be able to help you out. (Heck, if you want, message me on the forums and we can set up a time and meet on isotropic, otherwise if I'm online I'll be in automatch all the time. )

2773
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: What's missing now?
« on: August 23, 2011, 06:51:04 pm »
Hmm. Maybe Cards that can produce enough coins to buy themselves?

I was thinking along similar lines but tried to get too general - but if those cards can produce enough coins to get anything that costs coins, they  can produce enough to buy themselves! Stone and Diadem are then excluded because they have non-coin costs. Copper certainly fits that! Cleverly so.

But in that case, wouldn't Embargo and Baron also work? Since Salvager does? I must still be missing something.

2774
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: What's missing now?
« on: August 23, 2011, 02:44:43 pm »
Hmm. I don't get some of the comments people are making, but I'll post my guess.

Each of those cards can give enough coins to buy any card in the game? Secret Chamber and Vault discard for coins (so, arbitrarily high, if you increase your hand size), Salvager because you can trash a card to gain the same one (duh), trade route because of the variable value, pirate ship can go arbitrarily high.

I *think* the only remaining card with that property is Philosophers Stone.

I guess honorable mentions to all those things which can *gain* any card in the game - remodel/expand/horn of plenty/masquerade, maybe others. Honorable mentions to things with variable value that can't go quite as high.


But you said said that the Stone isn't the answer. And now that I think about it, Diadem fits that too...

Well, that's my guess. I'll keep thinking.

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