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26

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 21, 2023, 01:28:51 pm »

Normally (in fact almost always), when playing a card gets you +$, that's due to following its instructions, but that's not the only way things can happen, and Harbor Village doesn't refer to any such thing.

For example, consider a hypothetical "This turn, when you play an Action card, it also gives you +$1." That clearly causes Harbor Village to trigger. We don't "follow card instructions" to get that +$1; it's a trigger waiting around, from instructions followed earlier.

Whereas of course "This turn, when you play an Action card, +$1" does not attribute the +$ to the card-play and so would not trigger Harbor Village.

How does the game possibly have anything like that first hypothetical? But it does, e.g. Way of the Sheep.

Donald X. here explained an important difference in wording. But actually, Enchantress has the second wording, not the first. Enchantress says that when the player plays the card, "they get +1 Card and +1 Action", not "it gives them +1 Card and +1 Action". (If Enchantress instead had Way of the Goat's effect, it would say "they trash a a card", not "it makes them trash a card".)

So according to the card text on Enchantress, it works as the old ruling, not the new ruling. (The rulebook does have one instance of "the Action will give them +1 Card +1 Action", but I would think the actual card text saying the opposite should take precedence.)

Isn't it normal for the rulebook to take precedence?  Admittedly that's usually because in some instances the card text can't cover everything, so extra explanation is required in the rulebook, but shouldn't it also carry through to when the rulebook and the card are in disagreement?

27

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 08, 2023, 06:07:32 am »

But I mean. That's how it is with the +3 Cards on Smithy too. The card "does" it, which isn't something we ever need to think about until Harbor Village says "hey what did the card do."

But Moat always wanted to know what a card "did" also, right?

In one sense, namely that it merely wanted to know whether the card had 'Attack' written at the bottom, no.  I get the point, however, that there is the question of scope when it comes to Cultists playing Cultists.  Naively I would have thought that if card X says "You may play card Y", then card X doesn't finish being played until after card Y has finished being played.  Thus I'd have expected a Moat revealed on the first Cultist to provide protection against the entire chain of Cultists, but there would be nothing to prevent the Moat being revealed on the second or subsequent Cultist if it hadn't been revealed on a previous one.

28

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: September 04, 2022, 02:14:31 am »

They opened Margrave. I opened Inherit/Tournament. I think they bought Silver. I bought Prov. They played Margrave. I got lucky again.

Damn!  I missed that one.

29

Rules Questions / Re: Merchant Camp + Way of the Mouse as Duration

« on: September 02, 2022, 10:42:20 am »

That behaviour certainly looks wrong to me.  Under the line Merchant Camp says "When you discard this from play, you may put it onto your deck."  A Merchant Camp played as Way of the Mouse still has that effect, but if the Way of the Mouse card is a Duration, Merchant Camp shouldn't be discarded until the end of the turn that the Duration stops doing something, so it's surely only at that stage that you should be able to put it on your deck.

In the example that you encountered are you sure that the Duration still had something to do?  I.e. it wasn't for example a Gear that had not put anything aside?

30

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: How to optimize player level?

« on: September 01, 2022, 07:02:19 am »

It's also worth pointing out that the rating decays (by maybe as much as 0.1 per day?) if one doesn't keep playing games.

31

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: August 31, 2022, 10:58:29 am »

ETA: Although, that still doesn't seem to work -- your Estates miss the shuffle and so after T2 your deck is just 3 coppers, and you draw only 4 for your next hand, so is it possible to get Estate + Province in hand simultaneously?

Good point.  After my original reply I successfully worked out that the deck had 3 Coppers, so thought that the shuffle had to put Estate and Province as the top two cards, i.e. I had forgotten the effect of the Borrow.  Admittedly there are ways for a fifth card to be obtained, but they require another card (or cards) to be in the Kingdom.

One possibility is Lost City, with the opponent helpfully buying one at the right moment.

A second is Importer plus Band of Nomads (spend a favour for +1 card after buying the Province, thereby counteracting the -1 card token).

A third is Importer plus Cave Dwellers (spend favours to discard one or more cards to dig through to the missing Estate or Province).

A fourth is Importer plus City-State (with Province in hand, buy an Estate on T3 and spend favours to play it, but I don't think the Followers can then be played).

A fifth is Importer plus Desert Guides (spend a favour to discard the 4-card hand and draw five).

A sixth is Importer plus Fellowship of Scribes (shuffle Estate to top of the deck so that it's in the 4-card hand, play it, drawing Estate or Province, and then spend a favour to draw the necessary extra card, i.e. Province or Estate respectively).

A seventh is Importer plus Mountain Folk (spend five favours to draw three extra cards at the start of T3).

But the OP didn't mention any such combination as being part of the Kingdom.

32

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: August 30, 2022, 01:19:21 pm »

2/5 opening with Inheritance and Desperation - bought Inheritance on Turn 2! Even more useful, Ratcatcher happened to be in the kingdom, making the Curse very easy to deal with

My best was Baker/Borrow/Inheritance/Tournament. Opened Inherit/Province and managed to get a T3 Followers before they resigned.

Okay, this looks really cool but I’m not quite following. How did you open $7/$8?

I think I can work this out:

Turn 1: draw five Coppers, play them, spend Coffer, buy Borrow, buy Inheritance.  Inherit Tournament.
Turn 2: draw one Copper and three Estates (or two Coppers and two Estates, drawing the third Estate on the play of the first), play three Estates (+$1 for each), giving a hand of four Coppers.  Play them.  Buy Borrow, buy Province.

(Edit: I originally accidentally put my reply in the quoted section).

33

Dominion General Discussion / Re: did the settings change for resigns in re: multiple disconnects?

« on: July 08, 2022, 12:11:48 pm »

Thanks for the 411.  Where do you get these updates if you wouldn't mind sharing the link...

They're in the Shuffle IT Forum (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/).  More specifically they are in the Releases thread (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.0).

34

Dominion General Discussion / Re: did the settings change for resigns in re: multiple disconnects?

« on: July 07, 2022, 01:31:52 am »

My guess is that your opponent came to the conclusion that he couldn't continue the game reliably, so resigned to spare you both from huge frustration.

Edit: I've just seen that there were a series of releases yesterday...

1.6.4.4 Fixed the "spinning castle" problem by getting the client to give you the option to stop attempting to reconnect if you're repeatedly trying to reconnect to the same game.

1.6.4.4.2 Fixed the problem that it was impossible to reconnect in 1.6.4.4.1.

Perhaps you were playing at the time that 1.6.4.4.1 was live.

35

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Summary of all errata

« on: July 04, 2022, 11:24:04 am »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1odH3JFKtFdvK0dPAyCxa5i0Uk7WKGUxoij9LmAK6QlQ/

It's my own notes in my own shorthand, and it's only functional errata, but I plan to keep it updated as new errata come out.

According to my notes there have also been changes to the following:

Cellar
Citadel
Coin of the Realm
Embargo (though this is now a deprecated card)
Envoy (the original didn't use the correct terminology)
Hoard
Hovel
Mint
Nomad Camp (though this is now a deprecated card)
Oracle (though this is now a deprecated card)
Quarry
Royal Carriage
Scheme
Stash
Storeroom
Trade Route (though this is now a deprecated card)
Treasury

Alas my notes don't tell me how significant the changes were.  I know that some are edge cases (e.g. the 2nd Edition Cellar says "Discard any number of cards, then draw that many" instead of "Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded" which means that it works differently with Way of the Chameleon.  It's not impossible that one or two cards with non-functional changes have crept into my list.

36

Rules Questions / Fate of Hermit at the end of second (or third, etc) Buy phase

« on: June 29, 2022, 09:03:12 am »

A recent rule clarification is that returning to the Action phase triggers "end of buy phase" effects.  Does this imply that there are multiple separate Buy phases rather than a single interrupted one?

Consider the following scenario:

• During my Action phase I play a Hermit.
• During my Buy phase I buy (and therefore gain) a Villa.
• That causes me to return to my Action phase.
• I again end my Action phase.
• I don't gain any cards during the subsequent Buy phase.

Does the new wording of Hermit mean that the Hermit will now be exchanged for a Madman?  My assumption is that it does, but am I right?

37

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 28, 2022, 12:12:21 pm »

How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

I have my cards sleeved, so for some time I had been contemplating inserting paper slips with the new text so that on the rare occasions that I shall play ftf in the future I wouldn't find myself misplaying cards by automatically using my memory of what they do in online play.

One concern I had was that maybe my ftf opponents would object to all the art work being hidden, though as they are all of a similar vintage to me, they might have considered that a small price to pay for having the instructions in a large font.

A more major concern was whether it would be possible by feel to detect whether a sleeve had a paper slip in it or not.  I wasn't concerned that players might deliberately seek to identify the top card of their deck – I have great faith in the integrity of my ftf opponents – but rather that they might accidentally identify it and then, because of their integrity, find themselves wondering how they should react to the knowledge.  With so many cards now having errata that concern is disappearing because there are likely to be several modified cards in any Kingdom, plus enough unmodified cards that it wouldn't even be possible to know by feel whether a card was one of the base Treasure and Victory ones.

Whether I can get off my backside long enough to do all the necessary printing and guillotining of sheets of paper to add the errata to all the cards in my collection is another matter. 

38

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 27, 2022, 10:27:28 am »

No longer will I be able to ask people the question "In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?"  Admittedly not the greatest loss in the world.

39

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Question for Donald X. or anyone else in the know

« on: June 08, 2022, 10:21:45 am »

Though he didn’t say *which* fall.

Fall 2022 is the planned release.

I have seen multiple 'release dates' for Seaside 2E.

And LastFootNote says Fall 2022 (although I have not see that source).

No, 2022 was LastFootNote's response to the query about which fall we could expect the new expansion that Donald dropped a big hint about.

40

Rules Questions / Re: Emissary and Order of Masons

« on: June 07, 2022, 01:50:38 pm »

While I've been following this discussion I've found myself being convinced first by one argument and then the other.  I've now decided to try some original thinking instead.

I was contemplating suggesting that a shuffle has occurred if a shuffle is required and an empty deck is transformed into a non-empty deck before cards are drawn.  But then I realised that while that could have worked for the 1E shuffling rules, it wouldn't work for the 2E shuffling rules.  Instead it would have be "A shuffle has occurred if a shuffle is required and the number of cards in the deck is increased before cards are drawn."

In the Emissary and Order of Masons scenario that has been being discussed, this definition would result in a shuffle being deemed not to have taken place (so in accord with Jeebus, Ingix, and Donald's tentative ruling).

In the scenarios involving Stash and other mechanisms for stacking the deck this definition would result in a shuffle being deemed to have taken place.

41

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: May 24, 2022, 11:46:48 am »

Donald, I don't know if you've seen this, since you say that you mostly don't play other deckbuilding games.  But a common pattern I've seen is to mix all the cards together, and then there are just a few random cards available to take at any time.

The advantage is that instead of 25 kingdom cards in a set, you could print 250 unique cards or something.  Also setup is easier, and there's less info to process upfront.  On the other hand, it feels incompatible with variable setup.  There are differences from game to game, but we're still drawing from the same random deck, so there's a sort of uniformity to it.  We've enjoyed lots of deckbuilding games, but a bit disappointing, and one of the reasons we play more Dominion.

One of the reasons I play a huge amount of Dominion, but such other deckbuilding games not at all, is that I find it very confusing to have a huge variety of unique cards, often with quite subtle differences, in a single game, so I hope Donald never goes down this route.

42

Rules Questions / Re: Exact timing of skipping several turns (Lich)

« on: April 08, 2022, 12:42:54 pm »

So because of Possession, at end of turn we can't know anything about what will be your next turn.

Good point.

43

Rules Questions / Re: Exact timing of skipping several turns (Lich)

« on: April 08, 2022, 04:08:15 am »

One way to resolve the timing issue is to think of the turn order as something that exists before those turns are taken, like a deck of cards of alternating colors. So "skip a turn" just means "remove your next turn from the turn order", and you can do that at the moment you play a Lich. And if you play another Lich, you just remove another turn (and since the turn you previously removed is gone, you can't remove that turn a second time).

Jeebus has already explained why that doesn't work:

Describing "skip a turn" as immediately cancelling the next scheduled turn certainly doesn't work, since (1) you can get extra turns after that

Though I suppose one might get away with defining "skip a turn" to mean "at the end of your turn cancel your next scheduled turn".

44

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Diadem on another players' turn

« on: December 30, 2021, 11:19:00 am »

Diadem doesn't give Coffers (if that's what you meant by 'coins').  Also you don't have any Actions in another player's turn, so Diadem would give zero '$' in the scenario you outline.  I had been going to say that it was in any case impossible to spend anything when it's not your turn, but then it occurred to me that if Caravan Guard is in the Kingdom together with Way of the Mouse with Black Market as its set aside card, then it is possible.  I think!

45

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why is Way of the Butterfly optional?

« on: November 28, 2021, 07:27:42 am »

Other than allowing you to get another card in play that you wouldn't want to play normally (for example for Conspirator), why would you ever opt into Way of the Butterfly and then not have it doing anything?

If Golem or Herald were to reveal an action card that one didn't want to play, Way of the Butterfly would offer an escape route if it were in the kingdom.

46

Rules Questions / Re: Citadel and Captain

« on: September 14, 2021, 02:22:40 pm »

Before the new rule for playing cards, how does this interaction work? You play Captain, and next turn you play a Smithy in the supply, leaving it there, then Citadel replays it - and puts it into play? Meaning that the Smithy is now yours without you having gained it?

After the rules change, I guess it's very similar. You play Captain, and next turn you choose a Smithy, but instead of Captain playing it, Citadel plays it and puts it into play, and then plays it again. You get the Smithy.

Am I missing something?

Isn't this essentially the same as the situation that has existed with Throne Room from the very start, i.e. the second play of the card doesn't cause it to be put into play if it's not already there?

47

Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions

« on: September 05, 2021, 12:55:30 pm »

If you play an emulator such as Band of Misfits, which then plays a Treasure Map, you can't trash the Treasure Map from the supply, so you will fail to gain 4 Golds.

I dont understand, why i'm trashing the Map from the supply? BoM is in play, emulating Map, so the emulated Map tells me to trash itself and another Map from my hand? Do i missunderstand an emulator?

The first instruction on Treasure Map is "Trash this and a Treasure Map from your hand."
The second instruction is "If you trashed two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Golds onto your deck."

BoM has played a Treasure Map that is in the Supply, so when that Treasure Map tries to trash itself, it fails to find itself where it is expecting to, namely in play.  Therefore the Treasure Map in the supply does not get trashed, so you have not trashed two Treasure Maps, so don't satisfy the condition for gaining 4 Golds.

48

Dominion Articles / Re: Dominion is getting worse with each expansion

« on: August 26, 2021, 10:56:44 am »

Speaking as an old person, Dominion is more fun now than it was a decade ago, although it's less addictive.

I occasionally get to play against someone who will play only with the base set.  I can say with some confidence that if that were all that I could now play with every time, I would find Dominion a lot less addictive than I do.

In recent times I've played plenty of games online with interesting kingdoms, plus several that had 'boring' kingdoms, but even those were interesting in the sense that they required me to think about how they had to be tackled.  I even appreciate the occasional slogging match in which everyone's deck get filled with Curses and Ruins because there's no trashing.  I wouldn't want to be in such games too often, but I think I'd miss them if they never cropped up.  I suppose to some extent I want to have to answer the question "Is this a kingdom for which building an engine is sensible?" before moving on to the question "What's the best engine?"  That might be a reflection on the fact that I'm far from the world's best engine builder!

49

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Procession/Pillage ???

« on: May 20, 2021, 01:03:57 pm »

And to add some context, the reason that Pillage's wording was changed is because Overlord (and Band of Misfits) changed their wording in a way that would have made one-shot cards like Pillage and Embargo much more powerful, because you could play Overlord to play Pillage from the supply, and not have to trash the Pillage at all. This made it necessary to add "if you did" to Pillage to prevent it from being too easy to play every turn.

I think Necromancer caused a problem even before Overlord and BoM were changed.  I vaguely remember one game in which a trashed Pillage got played very frequently.  Or maybe it was a trashed Death Cart that got played frequently.  If my recollection is correct, then it was Necromancer that inspired the changed wording for Pillage and Death Cart, and the subsequently revised Overlord and BoM were merely beneficiaries of the change.

Trusting my memory of events might, however, be unwise!

50

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: A decline of rematching on Shuffle iT

« on: May 06, 2021, 08:24:29 am »

Sometimes if I am getting beaten badly I decide I’m just not in the mood and would rather roll the dice on getting matched with someone I have a better chance against.

The trouble with that is that when I'm having a bad day, I get beaten by a whole series of opponents. ☹

Alas bad days have been more common than good ones of late.