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Messages - chipperMDW

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201
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« on: November 16, 2017, 04:10:29 pm »
The strength of Changeling will obviously be highly kingdom-dependent, more so than your average card. I think it'll synergize well with Silver gainers—Lucky Coin and Masterpiece spring to mind.

Yeah I was curious what the use cases for this aspect was. Noticed right away the Lucky Coin synergy (mostly cause I quickly get sick of LC gaining me silvers) but wondering if there is some other fancy stuff you can do with it. Trader is another interesting one: turn the junk card you're getting into a silver into a Changeling.

I think it's neat with cards where you want the on-buy or on-gain effect, but don't necessarily want the card itself.

Like Mint. Buy it for the trashing effect, then get a Changeling instead and use that to gain something useful.

Or Border Village; yeah, a spending $6 and getting a $5-card and a village is nice, but getting two $5-cards (one delayed a bit) might be nicer. Or, for recursive fun: grab one Border Village for real so you can gain others with Changeling; turn the new Border Villages into Changelings while grabbing $5-cards, and use the Changelings to get more Border Villages so you can get more $5-cards...

202
New list up. Alchemy. Man oh man Alchemy.

Is the image broken for anyone else?

Yeah, it must be some kind of graphical glitch, because Transmute's showing up as though it got ranked all the way up at F.


(But seriously, the image is working fine for me.)

203
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Don't be fooled, nothing for you here
« on: November 14, 2017, 01:54:57 pm »
Actually, no card (printed piece of cardboard) is a card (a specific type of abstract game object).  It's just handy to use the former to represent the latter because that makes it easier to shuffle them.

204
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Is there any update on Nocturne?
« on: November 13, 2017, 10:34:24 am »
There was a delay shipping the trays, and we now expect Nocturne to ship (from RGG) on November 13.

My birthday!

Me too!

Happy birthday! :)

Thanks!

Psst! You should also tell him "You, too!"

205
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Asking for Undo
« on: November 08, 2017, 06:49:21 pm »
The game really needs to (eventually) implement no-ask undos for instances when no new information has been revealed.

I was going to suggest just that earlier. I would specify, though, that a no-ask undo should be allowed for instances when no new information has been revealed to the person seeking to undo. For example, if I play Poacher and don't realize a pile is empty, I might click on a card attempting to play it and end up discarding it. New information has been revealed (my opponent sees the card I discarded), but I should still be able to roll back to the point of the discard decision (but not to before I played Poacher) without needing consent from my opponent.

I'll also point out that it would even be possible for the server to defer updating your opponents' clients about the results of a string of your decisions while you're within the "no-refusal undo window" (or until it needs input from other players). Using the same Poacher example, the server wouldn't even need to update my opponent in real time about the identity of the card I discarded, or even the fact that I discarded anything yet, because it would still be within the "no-refusal undo window." As soon as I, say, play a cantrip and draw a card, then I can no longer get a no-refusal undo, so the server should make sure the opponent sees the discard and the new event at that time. But that would prevent the situation of watching your opponent play out a sequence of non-information-gaining actions only to go back and undo them and then you being confused about what happened and what didn't. I'm not sure if that's a desirable feature, but it should be possible.

206
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Teaching Dominion to young children?
« on: November 08, 2017, 07:08:37 am »
Kirian was referring to his kids. Reference the post your picture thread

Meh, I assume that was obvious, and people are being intentionally and obnoxiously obtuse.  Which I do enough that I can't really complain about too much.

Just from that initial post, I thought you were talking about yourself. Makes more sense as your kids though. New thread: was Kirian's wording ambiguous? ;)

Yes, but not intentionally so. "I started" without a further verb obviously refers to the thread title.

I read it as "I think I started reading at 7" since reading was being talked about as a prerequisite both in the preceding post and in your next sentence.

I mean, at first, I read it as "I think I started playing Dominion at 7," but I figured that couldn't be right (i.e. it didn't seem to be a joke) and looked for another interpretation. I briefly considered that you might have been talking about the age of kids you started teaching, but rejected that idea because that made "at 7" a dangling modifier; it needed to be something you were doing when you were 7. "Teaching" didn't make any more sense than "playing," so "reading" was the only thing that worked.

I didn't understand that you really were referring to your kids' ages until e pointed that out. Even now, knowing what you meant, I still can't squint enough to make the original look right to me; I can't mentally detach "at 7" from you and attach it to something not even mentioned in the sentence.

Probably, if "reading" hadn't worked as well as it did in context, I would have given up on my need for the modifier to not dangle and eventually accepted the intended meaning. It might also have helped if I'd known (remembered?) that you actually have kids and therefore would definitely have been in a position to teach some.

Not criticizing; just explaining the thought process of one person who legitimately misunderstood.

207
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: November 07, 2017, 06:48:31 pm »
Transmogrify isn’t evil, just off the top of my head. And yeah Summon, as Eran said. Um, what else? Pixie. Exorcist.
Druid seems friendly enough.

208
Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Gladiator
« on: November 06, 2017, 08:09:49 pm »
Actually my idea of Coppersmith has always been like Champion: "When you play a Copper, +$1." That would avoid the "uncleanliness". :)

Atomic ability replacement plus Champion-for-coins would not be sufficiently general to express all possibilities, though. Imagine Terrible Goldsmith, who causes Gold to produce 1 fewer coin (but not fewer than 0).

209
Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Gladiator
« on: November 06, 2017, 06:51:54 pm »
I understood that you were only suggesting that coin production on Treasures should be based on a property. My point is that I see no difference between that coin production and +$X on an Action card, and also that I see nothing special about coin production as opposed to action or buy production. Treating coin production on Treasures as special is not "clean" to me.

So we'll agree to disagree about the cleanest way to describe it.


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I don't see how Bank has an ongoing effect. It calculates X and then produces X coins right when you play it.

I said I could see your point if you argued that. If you're unwilling to take the view that a treasure has an instruction that produces a coin value equal to its worth at a given moment, then there is indeed no reason for you to consider Bank to have an ongoing effect.


Quote
Also Band of Misfits, Overlord and Inheritance have ongoing effects that modify. They change properies like types, cost and name, but also on-play ability. So even if we were to define Coppersmith and Envious as changing only a property and not the actual on-play ability, we still need the concept of changing on-play abilities. Also for this reason I don't see that introducing this property makes things any cleaner or easier.

Indeed. The difference is that those are modification of identity (BoM and Overlord), which replaces all abilities outright, and modification by gaining entire abilities (Inheritance). There's never any need to "peek" inside any of the abilities; you operate on them as atomic items.

I suppose you could express Envious as replacing the entire "+$3" ability on Gold with the entire ability "+$1," and I would not consider that "unclean."

But with Coppersmith, you have to describe "reaching into" the "+$1" ability on Copper, extracting the 1, incrementing it to 2, and rewriting the ability with the 2. And then you have to describe your next Coppersmith reaching into the modified "+$2" ability to extract the 2, and...  Rules describing how to perform surgery on other pieces of rules text is not my idea of clean.

For an example of how messy the direct manipulation of rules text could get, in outtakes, there's a card "Enchant" that would increase all numerical values on an individual card by 1. (If that ever became a thing, then I'd describe it by saying that each instance of N on a card is shorthand for {N+K}, where N is hard-coded, and K is a property of the card that is normally 0, but which Enchant could modify.)

210
Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Gladiator
« on: November 06, 2017, 04:54:32 pm »
Ok, I see now. I do see "$X (big coin)" and "this is worth $X" as the same as "+$X". They all mean "produce $X".

But about the basic idea of a coin property similar to the cost... It would mean that all cards have that property, not just Treasures, because all cards can produce coins. But cards can also produce other things, like actions and buys. To me there's nothing special about producing coins.

You could see Bank as modifying its own property, but then so would Mining Village (if you trash it), and even Pawn etc. And then you would need an action property and a buy property, which would be modified by all cards that can produce variable amounts of those.

To me it's cleaner to regard them all as instructions based on a number that is described in the instruction, just like "+2 cards" or even "gain 2 Coppers".

I wasn't proposing that everything that gives coins (or even a variable number of coins) should key off of a "produces" property.  Mining Village's ability should just be, like you said, an instruction based on a number that is described in the instruction.  So should Salvager's.  So should anything that says any form of "+$N."

The only things that I was suggesting should key off of a modifiable property were the things that an ongoing effect modifies.  Specifically, for this discussion, the "abilities" represented by the big coin on Copper, Silver, and Gold (whose behavior is modified by ongoing effects from Coppersmith and Envious).  And, well, the big coin should mean the same thing wherever it appears, so it can be treated the same way even on treasures that nothing cares to modify.

Even using that paradigm, it's up for interpretation whether or not a Bank operates by modifying its own copy of such a property.  But I completely disagree that treating Bank as doing that somehow necessitates treating Mining Village as doing the same (and especially disagree that it implies anything at all about how actions and buys should be handled).  The purpose of having the "produces" property wouldn't be to address the concept of a variable amount (e.g. +$1 per something), as you seem to be inferring; the purpose would be to address the concept of an ongoing effect (e.g. this card will now make $N whenever it actually produces coins).  Just because a card like Bank could use an ongoing effect to make itself worth a variable number of coins doesn't mean that anything trying to give a variable number of coins must or even should do so via that mechanism.

If you wanted to argue that an ongoing effect is not necessary for expressing what Bank does, and that it is simpler to have it just determine N and then do +$N, I could see your point. The reason I was treating it as an ongoing effect is just that there exist ongoing effects that modify the coin values of some treasures, so I imagine all treasures as being potentially modifiable in the same way.  That and the wording "this is worth $N" suggests an ongoing effect to me.

211
Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Gladiator
« on: November 06, 2017, 01:20:41 am »
The thing is that Action cards are also capable of producing coins, and it's effectively exactly the same as what Treasures do (even though on Actions it has a plus in front). And of course Treasures can also have abilities. It seems weird to say that Loan has an ability but its coin production isn't part of its ability but something separate. I mean, both things happen when you play it, exactly like with Militia.

I did mention the option of treating the big coin symbol as a "produce" instruction. That way it is a part of the ability; it's just linked to a convenient "hook" that gives effects a well-defined way to modify its behavior. (Equivalent to how Catacombs's instruction "gain a cheaper card" effectively has a hook (Catacombs's cost) allowing effects to modify its behavior.)

The other way has the weirdness you mention (and I don't like it for that same reason), but I included it in case it worked better for you with Bank and Fool's Gold, which don't have the big coin symbol. Doing it that way would avoid the need to clarify that their "this is worth X" instructions are not just Envious-style instructions that modify a property, but also implicit "produce" instructions.


212
Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Gladiator
« on: November 05, 2017, 03:45:54 pm »
I think it's pretty likely Envious works like Coppersmith.

And which way is that?

I can see three ways to interpret Coppersmith. Either one of the two ways I described for Envious, or just giving +$1 like Champion gives +1 Action. And the latter can't work for Envious.

I've always treated it as treasures having a "produces" (or "makes" or "is worth") property and Coppersmith (and now Envious) having an ongoing effect that modifies that property (in much the same way that Bridge modifies each card's cost property). Coppersmith increases that property by 1 for Coppers and Envious sets that property to 1 to Silvers and Golds.

And then you can either regard treasures as having a "produce" instruction (perhaps occurring wherever the big coin appears, or whenever the card says "this is worth $X") that adds an amount of coins (and potions) equal to the card's "produces" value, or you can say that cards are in general capable of producing resources equal to their "produces" property after they're played, but all the non-treasure cards just have a 0 value for that property and so don't produce anything. Both are currently equivalent as far as I know.

That's essentially the same thing saying Coppersmith and Envious "change the abilities" of those cards, but I think it gives a cleaner and more precise description of what's going on.

213
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Wishing I had Nocturne to play tonight...
« on: November 01, 2017, 12:34:11 am »
Why not use proxies?

Those are the ones that trash to double the boons, right?

214
"The Mountain's Gift" ties "Philosopher's Stone" for the longest-named thing in Dominion in terms of character count.

(Unless you count "Settlers/Bustling Village" as a whole name — for the pile or randomizer — and not just two separate names.)

215
Used Necromancer to play Imp. Out of several actions in hand, the only one Imp could play was another Imp.

216
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview #4: Leprechaun
« on: October 28, 2017, 12:50:16 pm »
Having now seen Exorcist, I'm not sure why there are 12 Wishes for Leprechaun but only 6 Ghosts for Exorcist (obviously there's no need for more than 6 Ghosts with Haunted Mirror). Wish is an action that is hard to gain, gives +1 Action when played (so it's easy to play), and returns itself to its pile. I assume with 12 Wishes they are much less likely to run out than the Ghosts. Why not, say, 10 Wishes and 8 Ghosts?
Also, it's hardly ever possible to gain more than 1 Wish per turn.
It should be reasonably common for there to be a Throne Room variant around with Leprechaun.

217
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview #5: Necromancer
« on: October 27, 2017, 03:11:48 pm »
Necromancer's pose is completely disconnected to the scene. You're freaking summoning a zombie, while looking at something off screen and having a completely neutral pose.

I mean, he probably does this all day long and just doesn't find the actual summoning that interesting anymore.

218
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Previews #5: Exorcist, Pixie, Vampire
« on: October 27, 2017, 02:10:05 pm »
I suppose you could have an arrow going one way on Bat and the other way on Vampire, but I don't think that adds any clarity.

"I'm With Stupid."

219
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview #5: Necromancer
« on: October 27, 2017, 02:01:23 pm »
Does "leaving it there" apply just to when the act of playing the card would normally put it into play, or does it prevent other card movement as a result of performing instructions on the card? For example, if you play a Wish from the Trash, does Necromancer leave it in the trash and turn it face-down, but then the Wish moves itself to its pile anyway?

Necromancer on Wish would just give you +1 Action, and Wish would stay in the trash.

Yeah, I see I missed that in the original post. The "leaving it there" is a blanket effect that prevents Necromancer from putting it into play when it plays it, and also prevents the card from moving itself. But how deep does that go? As matste asked, does it just prevent the card from moving itself through references to "this," or does it prevent the card from moving any card that happens to be "this"? In the latter case, does it apply recursively to things played by the Necromanced card? Like, if you Necromance a Throne Room and use it to play a Lurker, can that move the Throne Room? Or maybe it just prevents the card's movement by anything during the time when it's resolving, in which case even a hypothetical gain-from-the-trash reaction would be prevented from moving it.

220
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview #5: Necromancer
« on: October 27, 2017, 12:06:49 pm »
Does "leaving it there" apply just to when the act of playing the card would normally put it into play, or does it prevent other card movement as a result of performing instructions on the card? For example, if you play a Wish from the Trash, does Necromancer leave it in the trash and turn it face-down, but then the Wish moves itself to its pile anyway?

221
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Is there any update on Nocturne?
« on: October 27, 2017, 11:10:01 am »
A similar issue is why taking Deluded, Envious, or Miserable can't mean taking one away from another player. Fool has you take Lost in the Woods away from other players. I guess there's probably just a thing in the rulebook that says, "Hey, there's only one Lost in the Woods and you take it away from someone if they have it. But take those other things from their piles; they're different."

(Obligatory edge case for why you would ever want to take a Hex state away from an opponent: your opponent already has Deluded and you want to give him Envious so he can't afford the last Province. I got nothin' for Misery, though. Kingmaking? Showing off?)


222
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview $5: Necromancer
« on: October 27, 2017, 09:49:34 am »
You missed an opportunity to make all three zombies throwbacks to removed First Edition cards.

Zombie Adventurer? Zombie Scout?

I almost jokingly posted in the speculation thread that Necromancer would come with a "deleted" first edition pile and be able to gain the cards from it. Looks like my guess would have been closer than I thought.

223
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Previews #5: Exorcist, Pixie, Vampire
« on: October 27, 2017, 04:00:42 am »
So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards. Devil's Workshop counted gains; Raider and Crypt cared about cards in play; Ghost Town had the gain-to-hand thing, so you could play it at Night after buying it; Werewolf used it to select between two modes of operation; Ghost could work on a thing you just bought.

So how about today's Night cards?

I guess Exorcist's and Vampire's gaining during Night keeps you from being able to use the cards the turn you gain them (unless there's some way to draw a Ghost you gained), so it might be a power-level thing. (The same would apply to Devil's Workshop.)

And I guess Vampire and Bat sort of gain each other, so being Night cards prevents them from mutually recursing during a turn. (Although if they were actions, they could maybe have just exchanged on discard like Travellers do...)

Also, Exorcist and Bats trash cards in your hand. So you can use what would otherwise be a turn-ending terminal draw action to get stuff into your hand and then still be able to play the Night cards to trash it.

Anything else?

EDIT:

There's also the tiny interaction with Locusts caring about type. And maybe there are things that reference Night cards specifically, like "gain a Night card costing up to $N" or something.

224
Can we get a full list of Boons from someone who has seem them online?

Check the blog for images of the non-previewed ones. They're on the wiki, too.

225
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
« on: October 25, 2017, 07:15:05 pm »
"Outside of a blue dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a blue dog, it's too dark to read, but you're not sure what 'it' refers to."

FTFY

Yeah, I originally typed it without the outer quotes; then I added them when I changed it to match the style of the earlier post and forgot to redo the inner ones. I noticed after I posted, but didn't want to clutter the post with the "Last Edit" note. I thought the incorrect quotes would be the lesser of the two evils.

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