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Messages - chipperMDW

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Rules Questions / Re: Fleet extra turns
« on: May 01, 2019, 12:04:36 pm »
Because if the bolded text is taken literally, then people who didn't buy Fleet simply aren't a part of the game any more; they don't exist. Similar to a multi-player Magic game when one player loses.

But, we know that the bolded text is NOT to be taken literally, because those people in fact are still participating in the game. They gain Curses when someone plays Witch, etc. It's not that they don't participate in it, it's that they don't get an extra turn from Fleet's effect.

Even so, if a card specifically said to give an extra turn to, like, a friend who didn't even start playing the game, why wouldn't it be able to do that, Fleet or no? (Assuming it detailed where they were supposed to get their deck and starting hand from.)

EDIT: I guess you're saying that you can interpret it as though the seating order has changed and you can no longer refer to a non-Fleet player as "the player to your left." I guess I could see that. But I wouldn't call that a literal interpretation of anything. I'd call that making assumptions that some text means a bunch of things it doesn't actually (literally) say.

Rules Questions / Re: Fleet extra turns
« on: May 01, 2019, 11:13:50 am »
Nothing at all indicates that players without Fleet do extra turns. How should the average player (or a translator) guess that? ... just for players with this. seems simple and straightforward. I don't know of a rule which could enlarge that specified group. Without knowledge of this thread tasked to write a FAQ i would have written
  • players without Fleet get no turns during Fleet round. Especially can't such player get possessed.
  • players with Fleet execute other extra turns pending from before Fleet round or initiated in Fleet round as usual.
Hey, Donald wrote something sounding just so:
Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.
bold by me

Why would the fact that you're in "Fleet turns" stop Possession/Outpost/Mission from working? Those specifically say that some player gets an extra turn after this one. It doesn't say anywhere that the extra turn is contingent on or occurs relative to some player's "normal" turn (or Fleet turn).

I agree, though, that the rulebook should have been much more detailed about what exactly Fleet's text is trying to convey.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Are promos worth it?
« on: April 17, 2019, 04:44:35 pm »
The two new promos are expected in August.

Are they worth it?

Dominion General Discussion / Re: March Madness Kingdom
« on: March 22, 2019, 02:30:21 am »
(There are others you could choose from for these two, Training, Conquest, Dominate, Triumph)


Well I've made a bunch of mistakes, but Quarry isn't one of them.
You got ninety-nine problems, but a ditch ain't one.

You already knew this. ;)

Dominion Articles / Re: Glossary Update
« on: February 26, 2019, 12:19:43 pm »
"Stop card" should be in there somewhere.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: February 21, 2019, 12:20:49 pm »
One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

Rules Questions / Re: Trashing a Gladiator that's under a Fortune?
« on: February 20, 2019, 07:32:06 pm »
I think this is covered by the lose track rule: Gladiator A expects Gladiator B on top of its pile, but Gladiator B is in the middle, so Gladiator A loses track and cannot trash Gladiator B.

That's not Lose Track. Gladiator A never had track of Gladiator B, so it couldn't lose track of it.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion.Online issues
« on: February 19, 2019, 06:26:55 pm »
So after years of IRL

Are we talking about the 10 years or the 5 years here?
10 years of IRL.  I started Dominion in early 2009 (I did not know it was 'new' then)
5 years here? I have been on this forum for 5 years??  My first post was in 2017... odd for me not to post for the first 3 years.

I believe Awaclus is referring to the discrepancy he pointed out in this post.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« on: February 19, 2019, 12:31:40 pm »
Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played.

Unless something has changed recently, this is not strictly true. The rules for leaving cards in play specifically refer to Durations; other cards are discarded even if they are still doing something. Otherwise, Possession would stay in play at the end of the turn you played it.

Rules Questions / Re: Sauna and Innovation
« on: January 28, 2019, 10:10:00 am »
You wouldn't be calling Coin of the Realm after a Mining Village or Experiment.
You're about to move to the Buy Phase and play Diadem?

"After this turn" effects that have a player take extra turns (i.e. not Donate and Mountain Pass).

Say you play Outpost and buy Mission on one of your normal turns.  After that turn ends, you're in an "after this turn" window and can select one of the two.  Say you pick Outpost.  On your Outpost turn, you play Possession.  When your Outpost turn ends, you have effects for a Mission turn and a Possession turn; you have to do them in that order because of player order.  That means you must still be in that exact same window that started after your normal turn, because if the Possession effect belonged to an "inner" window (like what's described here), then you'd have to resolve it first instead.

Of course, that means "after this turn" really has to mean something more like "between normal/Fleet turns."

Or else you have to treat the timing of those extra turn effects differently from all other triggered effects.

Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 17, 2019, 01:56:51 pm »
Playing this during another player's turn is similar to playing it during your own turn - you put Caravan Guard into play, get +1 Card and +1 Action, and will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take. However getting +1 Action during someone else's turn does not do anything for you; it does not let you play other Action cards during that player’s turn.

t. rules

The part that is 'confusing' to me is the

"... get ... +1 Action, ... the very next turn you take ..."  It makes it sound like you get ANOTHER "+1 Action" on top of your default ABC "+1 Action" on the very next turn you take (like an unspent +1 Villager token on your mat.. it is waiting for you to 'use' ... on 'the very next turn you take'.  It seems opposite of the fact that you get you use the +1 Coin on your next turn, but you cannot use the +1 Action?

Those instructions are a list of three items.
  • put Caravan Guard into play
  • get +1 Card and +1 Action
  • will get +$1 at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take

The part about "next turn" is a part of the third item; it is not intended to apply to the entire list.

Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 17, 2019, 11:43:43 am »
At the risk of diving deeper down a semantic rabbit hole, "X has no effect" and "the effect of X is nothing" are synonymous.
Those are synonymous, but those aren't the two things we're talking about. We're talking about "the action has no effect" vs. "the act of giving you an action has no effect." The former means off-turn-CG gives you 1 action, and that action has no effect (whatever that might mean); the latter means off-turn-CG gives you 0 actions.

Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 17, 2019, 10:33:40 am »
You can get something that has no effect.
Sure, but the card doesn't say you get an action that can't be used for anything; it says that "+1 Action" has no effect, where that instruction usually has the effect of giving you an action.

Or maybe you were joking and I missed the joke.

Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 16, 2019, 11:47:24 pm »
The card actually says +1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn. If that's true, you don't even get the normally useless action.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 13, 2019, 02:53:30 pm »
Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.

But since an ability may not become available to trigger (indeed, may not even exist (e.g. with BoM)) until long after the triggering gain (as a result of other abilities triggered by that gain), checking the trigger condition at that point necessarily involves checking the gained card at the time of the gain, which is in the past. Right?

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 12, 2019, 11:38:23 am »
Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

From another thread:
Duplicate looks for a card costing up to $6 being gained, which didn't happen, so you can't use it.

I think that means this type of card (those that check the state of a card at the time their triggering event occurred) can also be added to this list of cards that look at the past.

Rules Questions / Re: Hands of non-Fleet players
« on: January 10, 2019, 10:02:28 am »
During the Fleet turn, do the non-Fleet players keep the hands they drew in their last Clean-up? This matter for Moating etc.
Yes, they're still fully in the game, just not getting a turn.
So Smugglers and Treasure Hunter look at the last turn they really had and not the Fleet turn they skipped, right?

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 09, 2019, 01:32:47 pm »
Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

I'd throw Smugglers in there, too, even though it's slightly different.

Rules Questions / Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« on: January 06, 2019, 07:10:50 pm »
That thread was based on an earlier discussion where this was made clear, but I'm not sure what thread that was.

You may mean the one that Gendo linked to in his reply in this thread.

Rules Questions / Re: Throned Enchantress
« on: January 05, 2019, 11:49:04 pm »
"Following Y's instructions" isn't still occurring, and that's the problem. It doesn't say to "replace" Y's instructions with Z, then execute Y's now-changed instructions, it says to ignore Y's instructions entirely and do the entirely unrelated thing Z. Ignoring the instructions and getting +1 Card +1 Action are completely independent events. The former event can't stack, but the latter arguably can.

So, I wouldn't call "ignoring the instructions" an event; I'd call that, like, an event failing to occur. And I'd say the word "instead" creates a dependency between the event that would have occurred and the event that is to occur in its stead. If the first event would no longer occur, then it has no stead in which another event can occur.

(They are, of course, separate events in that, like, Ironworks doesn't think it gained a Silver when you use Trader to replace its gain.)

The most relevant comparison is with Swamp Hag. "Gain a Curse when you buy something" stacks, so there's no reason not to think "+1 Card and +1 Action when you play your first Action card" doesn't as well.

The big difference here is that Swamp Hag never uses the word "instead," so it never replaces one event with another; it just tacks on a new event after the event that triggered it.

Imagine a Bog Hag that says "the first time any other player would gain a card on their turn, they gain a Curse instead." If you played two Bog Hags and your opponent gained a card, then that effect would not stack because there's only one (first) gain event in whose stead another event could occur. (Ninja'd.)

Rules Questions / Re: Throned Enchantress
« on: January 05, 2019, 08:34:47 pm »
It seems to me that the clearest interpretation consistent with other Dominion rulings is that +1 Card, +1 Action should take place twice, i.e. it should act like a Lost City. (This of course is not what anyone plays.)

Consistent with what other rulings? There are very few things in Dominion that cancel an event that's about to occur and replace it with another event. Besides Enchantress, I count Trader and Possession. (Maybe Fleet.)

After revealing Trader to replace "gaining an X" with "gaining a Silver," nobody assumes that the original "gain an X" is still occurring for the purpose of being able to reveal a Trader again to gain a second Silver (and so on, ad infinitum).

So why should it be different with Enchantress? After one Enchantress replaces "following Y's instructions" with "+1 card; +1 action," why should one assume that "following Y's instructions" is still occurring for the purpose of having a second Enchantress effect replace it?

(In M:tG, this kind of thing is called a replacement effect. You can't "double replace" an event there, either.)

Dominion Articles / Re: The Top 20 Best Designed Cards
« on: January 04, 2019, 11:15:29 am »
Is Council Room still the only +Cards with +Buy?  That is a cute and subtle point of power for Council Room, and instructive too.

Ranger, Margrave, Tragic Hero, Silk Merchant. Wharf. Powered-up City. Tactician if you want to count that.

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