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26

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The bad luck thread

« on: August 22, 2017, 12:29:55 pm »

I played game versus weaker player that initially ignored cultist. After opening silver/lookout got one cultist and next shuffle two more.
Next shuffle I played lookout vs 7 cards left. I didn't get choice trashed one cultist and discarded and could play only one with 9 ruins remaining.

27

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The bad luck thread

« on: August 10, 2017, 06:41:33 am »

It looks that this is turning  into a meme thread.

28

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?

« on: August 06, 2017, 12:55:16 pm »

kc-beggar is quite common, for example with triumph games you want kc-kc-beggar-beggar-buy to get hundred point megaturn.

29

Game Reports / Winning treasure map split.

« on: August 05, 2017, 04:47:43 pm »

kingdom: sea hag, mandarin, horse traders, oracle, royal seal, replace, treasure map(obelisk), rebuild, masterpiece. alms


This game was interesting as I won by having 6 treasure maps. It started as rebuild mirror with sea hags and horse traders but when duchies were running out two point per turn from alms treasure map made difference leading to three piling on curses, duchies and maps.

30

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?

« on: July 27, 2017, 06:57:31 am »

That example has nothing to do with possession but its just case of forager being only buy in kingdom. And it doesn't work because opponent would get three provinces with donate by playing your kc-forager with copper,silver,potion in trash.

31

Game Reports / Re: Curse-split, opponent just disconnected, calling me a novice...

« on: July 26, 2017, 05:30:59 am »

For actual game potion is quite big mistake but opponent made similar one by buying basically coppers. Noble brigand is quite useless here as it mostly hits ton of green, coppers and curses.

For rebuild game familiar is too slow as it gives bad economy. You want only one witch/sea hag/marauder... to slow opponent down. after that its about getting rebuilds and duchies. Curses are secondary to getting lead with 5 duchies. Here correct  buy on 4 is either duplicate or silver as duplicate gives 2 rebuilds on hitting 5 or 2 duchies when rebuilding estate.

32

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The swingiest card ever

« on: July 21, 2017, 05:21:12 pm »

Really?  Because I'll offer an incredibly weak, incredibly swingy card: Saboteur.

Saboteur is not so much weak as it is terribroken; it flips from "so weak it should be ignored" to "so strong it dominates the board" very quickly depending on how often you can play it. (Once per turn is probably about the tipping point.)

Also it isn't very swingy, in moneyish boards odds that it helps you are astronomical. You would rather buy duchy. Even if sab hits province that opponents changes into duchy its same vp swing as buying duchy.

In engines where you play multiple sabs skill is deciding factor. What really matters is to get engine operational fast and play more sabs than opponent buys. Before that one could relatively easily replace engine components. It doesn't matter much what those sabs hit as you need to reduce opponent deck until it collapses.

33

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions

« on: July 21, 2017, 12:09:33 pm »

Gear/Plan

Get rid of those pesky Estates while you pick up your three Gears.

I've been playing around with this lately.  It's really strong as a standalone money strategy (if there aren't crippling attacks or good engine Alt VP).  It's extraordinarily consistent - more so than any money strategy I've played.

I am not sure if this beats triple gear. It could win in 60% by having extra turn/estate vp to offset 40% of bad luck.

34

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?

« on: July 18, 2017, 11:25:53 am »

possession doesn't work as donate is much better to glass your deck Once you could play multiple possessions per turn just use donate to trash all treasures with debt opponent couldn't buy copper while possessing you

35

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best Asymptotic Point Scoring

« on: July 10, 2017, 06:41:06 am »

Deck size is much bigger than f^n^n, its f^f^f^f...t times ^f

If we wanted more gardens, we wouldn't even need to set them aside; it would be no trouble to keep drawing them. But that really wouldn't even increase the base of the tetration. Also I think ghost is right - it doesn't seem to cause infinite draw?

You shouldn't think, you should know. With stonemason example its 2kc, 2nv, stonemason loop

You are right, Kc-cq cubes the base of the tetration. So now if we get almost all of our starting cards to be city quarter, then we have 3.455675... ↑↑ n points.

We don't want a constant number of cq though; we want almost all of our cards to be cq because the number of iterations is what limits our growth. The initial log_2 (d) plays of cq become meaningless. I think you may be right, there is a slight error in my analysis though... that I don't feel like looking into.

No, problem that makes analysis worthless is that result would depend on having constant number of cq more or less. By first getting 20 cq and playing them for 20 fifty more iterations you would get thousand times more coins and if you plug it into calculation you would get bigger exponent. And log d cq factor where you have cards from previous iteration would outgrow any constant.

Also its easy to see that you want to play only 1 cq per iteration if you use more you made mistake. For contradiction find last cq play where you didn't draw whole deck. You could instead of playing  on previous turn play them this turn to gain same cards for undrawn portion and have better drawing capabilities in previous turn.

36

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best Asymptotic Point Scoring

« on: July 09, 2017, 11:31:21 am »

Native village with kc would cause infinite draw. I doubt that you could get triple arrow because of deck composition where you use limited number of one action as counter.

Second problem is that you didn't use kc-cq which increases draw to 8x instead to 2x.

Dependence of function on tfair/cq cost is just wrong from the first glance. It couldn't change asymptotic behaviour. Having constant number of cq more increases coins by bigger constant factor and initial log (d) cq plays exceed any constant factor.

But now I realized how to use scrying pool which I couldn't before as I didn't know how to deal with potions. Its again with city quarter.

Kingdom with cq, kc, bridge, workshop, spool, watchtower.

At start of turn use topdecked pool to draw all actions bought last turn and with one kc-cq draw rest of deck. Play kc-bridge. Now repeat playing kc-workshops gaining more kc and workshops and redrawing with scrying pool while you have pools.

At last iteration use half of kc and workshops that you have to gain potions, kc and bridges and use kc-cq to draw them. Buy and topdeck kc, cq and as many scrying pools as potions.

37

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best Asymptotic Point Scoring

« on: July 07, 2017, 04:47:00 am »

With what I wrote its exponential as for each kc-cq play number of played kc-workshops increases by some constant. By optimizing gains you would only improve that constant.

38

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best Asymptotic Point Scoring

« on: July 06, 2017, 04:52:31 pm »

I have better f(n)= 2^2^2^(O(n) times) kingdom kc, workshop, city quarter, training, tfair, bridge, gardens.  Deck contains starting cards one gardens, rest are action. Training on workshop

Turn starts by drawing deck with log(d) cq where d is deck size, play kc-bridge. Then you start multiplying workshops/kc. Assume that deck has k kc and k workshops. play k/2 kc on k/2 workshops to gain 3/4k workshops and 3/4k kc then play cq to draw these and repeat by number of cq in deck. If you start with 3 kc and 3 workshops and l cq you will end with 2^l workshops. Coins from training allow you to buy 2^l/10 cq which shows that f(n+1)>=2^f(n) and bound follows.

39

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards

« on: July 04, 2017, 04:23:07 am »

It is worse than training which is easier to get and one buy adds 5-6 coins depending on split.

There are flaws with this argument.

1) It's not certain that there is a card in the game that you want to have more than like 3 copies of.
2) Only adding payload after splitting a pile means you will only get the benefit at a pretty late stage in the game.

Of course, in the right condition, Training is great, but GM is a lot more versatile, not to mention that sometimes it's the only +buy.

These are invalid arguments as one does comparison what would happen if one replaced grand market by training.

1. In that boards you shouldn't get grand  market (unless its crossroads no cantrips edge case). With that restriction you don't have time of adding multiple grand markets as you already assembled engine with few pieces and could end it. With training on village/cantrip buying more is better as you improve reliability and economy by piling these. There is almost no risk of three piling as other piles have 4 cards left.

2. Is irrelevant for comparison. You play same strategy with grand market/training until point you get to buy first gm where you buy training. That would give better economy with training. That you don't have to do it and buy training earlier or not buy so many silvers only makes stronger.

For buys often one wishes to have herbalist as one buy instead of grand market as it comes into action sooner. GM helps with three piling but you need to also take into account how rare having gm as only buy vs training on board with no buy.

40

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The swingiest card ever

« on: July 03, 2017, 12:20:33 pm »

I would say that swingiest card is cultist. Cultist bm is often dominant and given how fast it is one couldn't recover from losing ruin split 7-3 unless there is vineyard.

I don't disagree with that but I think that this is overdetermined by the fact that Cultist is overpowered.

That isn't surprising as card needs to be strong to affect outcome in significant manner. Otherwise I could say that scout was very swingy as you could remove three estates with it or none.

41

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards

« on: July 03, 2017, 11:18:43 am »

I have lot of disagreements with this list.

First grand market, seriously rank 6? I would put it between hunting grounds and border village. It is a slow way to add a payload for weaker engines. With stronger engine you couldn't spend turns adding few grand markets as when you could double province opponent would double province for two turns and threatens getting two more provinces next turn. Events enable strong engine which makes them better than grand market. It is worse than training which is easier to get and one buy adds 5-6 coins depending on split.

Fortune and city quarter are same case of being worse than events. Lost art/pfinding and inheritance are better on building engine than these. They would go between lost arts and training.

Then training is underrated, should be above border village. Its close to fortune with adding payload if you take into account that you could use it earlier with lower opportunity cost.

Last one is moving conquest above hoard, its quite strong on moneyish boards, especially with silver gainers and sometimes allows megaturn.

42

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Infinite stalemate game

« on: July 03, 2017, 08:05:17 am »

For infinite it happened in one of possession/donate game. Optimal strategy was to donate to get deck with two possessions and village, then donate again to have only these in deck with no way to repay debt. if one player doesn't do that second wins because he could build better engine using other's player deck.

43

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The swingiest card ever

« on: July 03, 2017, 05:57:48 am »

I would say that swingiest card is cultist. Cultist bm is often dominant and given how fast it is one couldn't recover from losing ruin split 7-3 unless there is vineyard. Sea hag is swingier than swindler as it sea hags opponents sea hag. I would put ambassador on third place for unlucky 5/2 splits and that winner is decided by collision of double-ambassador or not lot of time.

Main problem with entropy measure is that it measures something completely different than swinginess, namely how much poor player misplay(especially openings). Amb has low rating there because noobs don't open double ambassador. bishop follows that as noobs open with it and get deserved loss most of time.

44

Game Reports / Re: So Close!

« on: July 02, 2017, 05:30:58 pm »

Disagree about oracles, getting these with lost arts would take too long compared to wharfs. I played some games and oracle is too weak draw compared to LA-wharf. Wharfs will be quickly gone, on average I got 6 provinces at turn 13.

Better opening is silver/jack as you want wharf or LA wharf on next shuffle and shanty with jack don't synergize. With one artificer and estates turned to silvers that gives enough for double province. I would pick millita or shanty on unlucky hand where you couldn't hit 5.

45

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: June 25, 2017, 02:58:32 pm »

Ferry/highway isn't synergy as most of time you want to ferry another card for draw etc. Highway is weak early, spending one turn to ferry and several on essentially peddlers is move that loses game. Its basic draw your deck first, then you could add highways as payload even without cost reduction.

46

Help! / Re: Not sure how I fell so behind here

« on: June 24, 2017, 08:25:55 am »

could you post log, attempt to load this gives me internal error

47

Game Reports / Re: Monument-BM?

« on: June 21, 2017, 01:35:40 pm »

Yes, I would get princess first as followers are ignorable. Also I would probably skip second silver as you get butcher/altar and not hitting that when opponent does is basically game over.  Game would end on piles or by milling provinces with butcher.

48

Game Reports / Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way

« on: June 15, 2017, 03:58:45 pm »

So I have no math or research to back this claim up, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here, but I believe engine capabilities have decreased with every new expansion and will continue to do so. Since the ShIT release with Empires, maybe it's because I don't fight as hard as most to find and play the engine, but I've played plenty of bm games.

Math to show that you are wrong: Effect is close to zero after 3-4 expansions. With your simplification that cards of each type have same effect one could generate board by first selecting types(as probablility of each stays constant) then select cards for each type. Board could be unrealizable because we don't have enough cards of one type in which case we try again. Probability change could be bound by prob of unrealizable board, if there are 5 cards of same type it requires to have 6 cards of one type in board which is unlikely.

Main factor why engines became better is that cards got stronger with expansions. Base has worst gainer(byreaucrat, workshop), draw(moat), peddler variant(market). luckily lack shanty town and trade route.

49

Game Reports / Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way

« on: June 14, 2017, 03:20:19 am »

In old days every board was bm because most cards didn't pass silver test.

50

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread

« on: June 14, 2017, 03:10:40 am »

Last game I got 50 debt and won by piling crossroads and estates.