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626

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What cards would you happily do without?

« on: January 31, 2014, 02:57:18 pm »

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

I don't think "+1 card, +1 action, reveal the top card of your deck" would be viable at 0. If you ignore the reveal thing, which is only useful to a minor extent with a few cards (pawn, steward, mystic...), it has achieved nothing. You bought a card that did nothing because you guessed wrong, and unlike with mystic there's no self synergy. It just feels like a dull, non functional card with its interesting effect done much better on another.

I suppose I used to like it before I realized that "+1 card, +1 action" got you back to where you started and opening village or great hall was stupid.

I don't like Wishing Well either, but I think a "failed WW" would be viable (if boring) at $1. Just being a "do-nothing" cantrip lets it actually do something positive with a big number of other cards (Goons, Conspirator, Peddler, Scrying Pool/Herald, Gardens, cards that care about variety, TR/KC/Proc., TfB, defense against trashing/deck-inspection attacks...). While a $0 cantrip pile would make Goons even more overpowered.

627

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 23, 2014, 02:43:56 pm »

How well does the Rats/Upgrade deck handle Ambassador and Goons?

The discard Attack won't matter after the first turns, because all the cards you want to play are cantrips, so starting with 3 does not make a difference. I don't think a Goons player can rack up enough VP chips in 7-10 turns to compete with all Duchies.

Ambassador, I think it is too slow. Sure, you have a couple of more things to trash with Rats, but the slowing for the player playing Ambassador instead of developing would be much more significant.

Militia/Masquerade and later the pin could be a real threat, and it could be fast. Also, they are effectively starting with two actions plus a Copper, so the slowdown could be important until you reach pin-point.

I haven't tried any counter in a real game, but I also think that Ambassador and Goons are too slow to work  (also, both attacks are countered by Watchtower).
Militia/Masq. would slow the combo down, but the KC/Militia/Masq. pin is broken by Fortress (because the pin player can't trash it and thus has to return it with the next Masquerade).

Swindler (or Saboteur) might be the best counter - you don't want to lose your first Procession/Upgrade (or your only Watchtower/Haven) after your economy is gone. But you can probably work around it by gaining two copies each before feeding your treasure to Rats; also Fortress is immune to trashing attacks.

628

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 16, 2014, 05:49:50 pm »

PS:

Or is it the 10-card combo consisting of Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats? In that case I think it's a lot less impressive, since it's probably possible to empty the supply with worst-case shuffle luck in ~12 turns if you can choose the kingdom (although a solution has never been given AFAIK. Thread here). Sure, 12 turns is a lot more than 7 turns, but average shuffle luck is much better than worst-case shuffle luck and ending the game is a lot easier than emptying the supply.

AFAICS, that thread didn't give any actual solutions to emptying the supply in any number (<50) of turns, only educated guesses. And the question assumed stacking the Black Market deck, which will more than make up for the worst shuffle luck for the deck, I think.

629

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 16, 2014, 05:35:17 pm »

So what is the exact combo? Because I doubt that Upgrade/Rats/Fortress can end the game in 7 turns with average shuffle luck.

Or is it the 10-card combo consisting of Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats? In that case I think it's a lot less impressive, since it's probably possible to empty the supply with worst-case shuffle luck in ~12 turns if you can choose the kingdom (although a solution has never been given AFAIK. Thread here). Sure, 12 turns is a lot more than 7 turns, but average shuffle luck is much better than worst-case shuffle luck and ending the game is a lot easier than emptying the supply.

There are probably many variation to it, and I had to "practice" a bit. But I did it in 7 turns by opening Rats/Watchtower, than buying Procession, Fortress and (when I didn't get to $4) Haven in the next 3-4 turns. Use Procession on Rats or Fortress twice to gain two Upgrades, play Rats whenever you can (trash Estates or Coppers or Fortress), use Watchtower to topdeck gained cards and (if necessary) to draw. As soon as you draw your entire deck (without using Watchtower), you can piledrive Upgrades and Rats (trashing surplus Rats with Watchtower), use the last Upgrade to gain a topdecked Outpost, draw it and set aside Fortress with Haven, then play Outpost and piledrive Duchies on the extra turn. So I used effectively a 7-card combo; but without Outpost you could still do it in 8 turns, and Haven is probably not strictly necessary (just Upgrade Rats on the last turn until you draw the Fortress). I suspect it'd take maybe 9 or 10 turns with worst shuffle luck (you automatically draw your deck and get the combo after Rat-ifying your deck sufficiently).
It may work even faster by using the Baker coin to open Rats/Ironworks (or Armory?).

630

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 14, 2014, 03:59:51 pm »

It would not be good to fall behind because that means the other person's strategy is extremely fast/lucky, but it would be doable to quickly gain some points -- Upgrade turns 5s into 6s (e.g. Fairgrounds) and there are a variety of useful 5s.

But you have no time or money to gain several $5 cards other than Upgrades - you'd have to use them on each other, which gives you very few VPs (Fairgrounds will usually only be worth 2 VP with this strategy).

You only need to spend one buy (to get Ironworks; use it to get others). I think it would be worth it. You need to be getting Fortresses somehow, anyway.

Yes, but I'm not sure if even the single buy spent on it is worth it (you can make do with a single Fortress if you buy a Haven, and I don't see much use for Menageries or Remake here). I'd have to try it, admittedly opening Rats/Ironworks with the Baker coin does sound like a good idea...

631

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 14, 2014, 01:40:11 pm »

But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.

So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...

I don't think these cards can easily compete with Upgrade/Rats/Fortress - you're not even guaranteed to gain and then draw a single King's Court by turn 7, and the other cards can't reliably gain 40 VP in 7 turns either. The Baker coin can help a little (Upgrade/Rats/Fortress doesn't even need it), but it's probably not enough.

I agree. Going for the rush with this type of strategy has got to be better than anything that requires building up to multiple KCs. And if both of you go for a quick three-pile and you are behind in points, you can try to bail out to Silk Roads or Fairgrounds or Gardens or Goons at that point.

Discard attacks really hurt, though, so I would probably be making a place for Watchtower, as well. Maybe even unconditional on the other player going for a discard attack.

I am debating whether I would want an Ironworks, too. I think I would. You could use it to pick up extras like Warehouse or Menagerie or more Fortresses; one Remake, maybe?

This game should be over very quick.

"Bailing out" to $4 or $6 victory cards is difficult since Upgrade can only get $5 cards "for free" and you'll essentially have zero economy due to Rats multiplication. So agressively competing the Duchies could in principle be a counter-strategy; e.g. in a 4p game, this strategy could lose against three Beggar-Duchy rush players. Competing the Upgrades is another potential counter.

Watchtower is already very useful to trash surplus Rats and topdeck gained cards, no matter whether there are discard attacks.
I don't think Ironworks or the other cards you mention are worth it; the game is too short to waste a buy on them (except maybe if you're heavily attacked from the start), and you need to keep your deck as small as possible to pull off the pile-driving megaturns.

632

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 14, 2014, 09:53:00 am »

This looks like an interesting concept. Really mindblowing. You can do whatever you like! You 've got the means! It's almost crazy!

Yes, I felt the same when I read it and managed to pull it off myself.

But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.

So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...

I don't think these cards can easily compete with Upgrade/Rats/Fortress - you're not even guaranteed to gain and then draw a single King's Court by turn 7, and the other cards can't reliably gain 40 VP in 7 turns either. The Baker coin can help a little (Upgrade/Rats/Fortress doesn't even need it), but it's probably not enough.

633

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards

« on: January 13, 2014, 07:03:50 pm »

I agree that my fix might be less compelling to casual players; but it's not just a weaker Cartographer since it still draws the revealed VP cards.

Sure, but it's much closer to Cartographer than either Scout or my updated version (Guide).

Your fix is more simple, but to me it seems less elegant to add an "unrelated" +$1; also it makes Scout a little too similar to Oasis (and other Peddlers) in my opinion. As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants (except for Noble Brigand, whose +$1 I also find rather inelegant.)

Here is a list of Kingdom cards that can give exactly +$1 (but no more) that are not Peddler variants: Bridge, Ironworks, Pawn, Herbalist, Bishop, Noble Brigand, Squire, Merchant Guild.

EDIT: Ninja'd by AJD. Although I didn't list Lighthouse and Fishing Village because they technically give more than $1 total.

Oops, you're totally right. I should not have made that claim from memory...

So it's uncommon, but not as rare as you might think. I used Bishop as an example earlier in this thread because its +$1 also seems unrelated to the rest of the card. I understand what you mean by the inelegance of just slapping a +$1 on there, but if Scout had originally had that +$1, I doubt most people would have been like, "What does +$1 have to do with the rest of the card?"

The most straightforward fix IMO would be to just increase the number of revealed cards to 5 (or even more) and/or also draw Curses. Or would this make Scout too strong in Intrigue-heavy games?

I think drawing Curses is a fine idea. I'm not sure it would save the card, but I don't think it's a bad thing to try. Revealing 5 cards I'm less fond of. Each card you reveal potentially adds much more AP when you put those cards back on your deck. There are 24 ways to return 4 cards to your deck. There are 120 ways to return 5 cards. Navigator gets away with it because you usually don't care about the order you're returning those cards. You're either discarding them or drawing them all in your next hand.
[...]

Usually you won't  return all the revealed cards; if I buy Scout, I'd want it to reveal at least (say) 2 VP cards on average, leaving only 3 cards to return. And the order only matters if you have more card draw this turn.

634

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards

« on: January 13, 2014, 05:52:12 pm »

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.

But Scout would still not skip Coppers, Curses and other junk like Cartographer does. I think this buff would "only" make it a strong $4 card, at about Caravan's level. A probably smaller (and IMO more interesting) buff would be to draw a card only if Scout fails to reveal green cards, as was sometime suggested in an older thread.

Personally, I'd like to buff Scout by making it also skip Coppers and Curses; this seems most thematic to me. Since drawing Coppers would be too strong, I'd just add "You may discard all revealed cards costing $0." to the card text before the last sentence.
(This would make it similar to a weaker "automatic" Cartographer, removing the AP of that card.)

I don't feel like I have much AP when using Cartographer. As for Scout, I'd rather have a card that's more unique than one that's a weaker Cartographer. If Scout's main issue is straight-up power level, why not use the more simple, straightforward fix? I don't think the card needs a bunch of other clauses; they'll just make it less compelling to most players. I think the amount of complexity it currently has is ideal.

I agree that my fix might be less compelling to casual players; but it's not just a weaker Cartographer since it still draws the revealed VP cards.
Your fix is more simple, but to me it seems less elegant to add an "unrelated" +$1; also it makes Scout a little too similar to Oasis (and other Peddlers) in my opinion. As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants (except for Noble Brigand, whose +$1 I also find rather inelegant.)

The most straightforward fix IMO would be to just increase the number of revealed cards to 5 (or even more) and/or also draw Curses. Or would this make Scout too strong in Intrigue-heavy games?

But I'd happily try your version if it succeeds in balancing Scout. Thanks for sharing!

635

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mega Kingdom Strategy

« on: January 13, 2014, 12:56:47 pm »

I think the Upgrade/Rats/Fortress strategy found by Hertz_Doughnut in his "Battle Royale" variant could be the optimal strategy; unopposed and with good support, it gains all Duchies (+2 Dukes) and ends the game by three-piling around turn 7 with average shuffle luck:

Battle Royale evolves.  The combo that is currently dominating the format is not one that I have found in any forum post or strategy article on this site.  And this combo can come up in regular Dominion... for example, this kingdom:

Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats (+ Colonies, + Shelters)

I can win that kingdom regularly in 7 turns on goko.  The combo involved is much easier to set up than the Masquerade pin.
[...]

(You don't need exactly these 10 cards, nor Shelters or Colonies to make this work. Haven also helps.)

I don't think cursers or Chapel/KC can compete with this very fast strategy. Beggaring Duchies from turn 1 could compete with it if Dukes were banned...

636

Dominion FAQ / Re: Promos on Goko

« on: January 10, 2014, 02:07:22 pm »

Looks like I have to wait until they release adventure mode for Guilds there will probably be more Victory Tokens to earn then.

I don't think it'll be enough for another promo card; the other small expansions' adventures only give you 12 shields each. And I wouldn't bet on them ever releasing the Guilds adventures, to be honest, though I'd also like to get my money's worth for buying Guilds...

637

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards

« on: January 09, 2014, 10:57:00 am »

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.

But Scout would still not skip Coppers, Curses and other junk like Cartographer does. I think this buff would "only" make it a strong $4 card, at about Caravan's level. A probably smaller (and IMO more interesting) buff would be to draw a card only if Scout fails to reveal green cards, as was sometime suggested in an older thread.

Personally, I'd like to buff Scout by making it also skip Coppers and Curses; this seems most thematic to me. Since drawing Coppers would be too strong, I'd just add "You may discard all revealed cards costing $0." to the card text before the last sentence.
(This would make it similar to a weaker "automatic" Cartographer, removing the AP of that card.)

638

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cave - secret vp card

« on: January 08, 2014, 11:09:35 am »

To get around the ruins problem, you could maybe use "priced" instead of "named"? Might be too hard to make it worth three then.

Yes, this is probably the best way to make it non-OP with Shelters or Ruins. I think the following could work:

Cave - Action Victory - $5

Place a card from your hand face down on the cave mat.
Worth 1 VP for every 2 differently priced cards on your cave mat.
--
At the end of the game count the number of differently priced cards on your cave mat, then return all of the cards on the mat to your deck.

It will easily give 2 VP if you buy it early enough (by placing Copper, Estate/Shelter, Silver, Cave there), and usually not more than 3-4 VP, so it seems reasonable compared to e.g. Nobles (Cave's setting-aside alone would probably be a $2-$3 card, while Nobles without the VPs is a strong $4).
And the anti-synergy between pseudo-trashing and greening allows for $5 instead of $6, I think...

639

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: January 06, 2014, 01:53:42 pm »

Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:

Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.

Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.

took me a minute to get it, but this seems worth testing.  Prior to having duchies, you'd have to get very lucky to go estate-> duchy if your deck is just copper, silver, rebuild, estate (drawing all three prior to estate).  Once you've got duchies, it's a bit better, but still weak.  So you'd have to buy stuff besides rebuild, silver, duchy, in order to make the deck work.  And that's the thing that rebuild needs.

The trashed VP card also counts as one of the revealed cards, as I understand the card text; so it works as a normal Rebuild just by revealing Copper and Silver before the VP card. In Shelters games or with Looters, it becomes even easier to use Rebuild as usual.
Therefore I think this is far too strong (probably stronger than the printed card); it gives a very good chance to go e.g. Gardens->Province, and a realistic chance to directly rebuild Estates into Provinces if you have 4+ different non-VP cards in your deck (you just need to buy 2-3 different support cards for Rebuild even if there's no Shelters/Looters; you'd sometimes do this with the original Rebuild anyway).

The idea is interesting, but the card should at least say "less than" to weaken it; probably it needs even more nerfing.

(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well.  I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree.  I'm petulant about it, tho.)

I agree; but I think it would need to cost $5 to become reasonably weak. Actually I considered just this variant as a fan card before Dark Ages was released; back then I thought it might still be too strong at $5.
I wonder why Donald didn't consider this version; it'd be easier and more interesting than the printed card...

640

Rules Questions / Re: Haggler/Black Market

« on: January 03, 2014, 12:54:07 pm »

Is there a quick way to get "sheilds"  It seems like you have to win 50 boss battles, which means winning like 200 normal adventures to access the boss showdown.  This takes forever

The "finale" boss battles give you more. Like 10 or so. I can't recall exactly. So it's not quite that slow. But it's pretty slow.

IIRC you get 4 shields for the final bosses of the first two Acts of each expansion, and 20 for the final bosses on Act 3 (and Act 4 for DA). So you get 52 shields from completing all adventures of a normal large expansion (or the base set), 80 for Dark Ages, but only 12 for each small expansion.
On average you have to win ~120 adventures to gain a Promo card.

641

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: January 02, 2014, 06:10:06 pm »

Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.

But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.

642

Game Reports / Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard

« on: December 20, 2013, 05:07:10 pm »

Robz, no need, no need.

Holger's bot left the Gold condition in there which was slowing it down. All sims below run 1000 games.

Removing the Gold conditions (so Province is bought if there is one Hoard in your deck (instead of one Gold) and no Gold buys at all) has Rebuild loosing to Courtyard 46.9%-53.1% (this is with the early Duchy buys -- which now make a difference).

Right, that was a stupid mistake. But 47:53 is still quite close - and actually I'm getting 50:50 after 10,000 games when fixing this in my code...

Adding one Venture first helps a lot. Rebuild now loses 42.7%-57.3%.

Adding 2 Ventures before buying Duchies helps a little more. Rebuild loses 40.5%-59.5%.

Okay, so at least we've found a four-card-BM "combo" that beats Rebuild.
But I suspect that Rebuild-Courtyard could still beat this...

Edit: Yes, Rebuild-Courtyard wins 51-49 against it. Maybe it doesn't win against a more optimized Courtyard rule, but I wouldn't bet on it...

643

Game Reports / Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard

« on: December 20, 2013, 03:54:23 pm »

Holger, can you post the Dominate code? I would be interested in looking at what you are running. Thanks!

(FTFY)

Here it is; I've just added the Hoard and Harem lines to the existing OBM Courtyard code, and now made the "second" Duchy gain priority unconditional. (Remove the Harem line to get "my" CY-Hoard BM.)

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'OBM Courtyard'
  author: 'HiveMindEmulator'
  requires: ['Courtyard', 'Hoard', 'Harem']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Hoard" if  my.countInDeck("Hoard") == 0
    "Harem"
    "Gold"
    "Duchy" #if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Silver" if my.countInDeck("Silver") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") < my.countCardTypeInDeck("treasure") / 8
    "Silver"
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") <= 1
  ]
}

644

Game Reports / Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard

« on: December 20, 2013, 03:27:22 pm »

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).

Hmm, well I have very little experience with the simulators, but how well do they play Courtyard in conjunction with Hoard? Put back rules a little tough, maybe? Because that result does surprise me a bit...

Unfortunately I don't know, I just used the implemented put-back rules.

Edit--re: Holger's simulation data, I'm wondering the same thing that Robz888 is, deciding what to put back with Courtyard can require some thought, depending on where you are in your shuffle, what you know is still in your deck, etc.  I can't imagine the simulator can account for that.  Also, IMO if you're going Courtyard-Hoard (Harem or no) whether you get one Hoard or two depends partly on how your draws go in the early- to mid-game.  So only buying one Hoard irrespective of anything else does not seem like optimal play for that strat.  I could be wrong though.

Edit #2: to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Courtyard-Hoard or Courtyard-Hoard-Harem are necessarily superior strategies to Rebuild.  It's just that I decided to try it, thought it had a good chance of working out, and it did, and I was happy about that, so I decided to post the results

Yes, I didn't account for the option to buy a second Hoard; to simulate it, you'd need a clear rule when to buy a second one, and I was too lazy to find one myself 

Are you adjusting the Duchy buy rules?

jaybeez bought Duchies right away. I would be interested in if it's worth passing up the first Duchy for a Venture (if you don't have Hoard in hand).

No, I didn't. But trying it now, it turns out that buying Duchies from the start leaves the win rates almost unchanged.

645

Game Reports / Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard

« on: December 20, 2013, 02:18:06 pm »

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).

646

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: December 18, 2013, 03:58:47 pm »

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5

Then you just buy another Rebuild.  One of the tactical decisions you have to make in a Rebuild game is knowing when to switch from Rebuilds to Duchies.  If Duchy is not a buy option, then you just go for Rebuild every time.  Of course that's slightly weaker than if Duchy is available, but not nearly enough that Rebuild is no longer dominant on most boards.  I think it's only a slight nerf, and actually makes Rebuild less interesting.

Yes, that's what I think as well. The strategy would be simple: Buy Rebuild for $5, Silver or Estate for $3, Estate for $2.

Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more?  I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.

I think the simplest fixes are removing the +1 Action or increasing the price; and both have been shown to be effective for making Rebuild-BM non-dominant (the price increase to $6 probably too much so).

"Return to supply" is also a relatively simple (and elegant) fix, but I'm not sure if it really weakens Rebuild so much; have you playtested/simulated it? It could actually help Rebuild that the Duchies rarely run out in the non-mirror, similarly as with pst's proposal. (It might hurt Rebuild more if only the Provinces are returned to the supply instead of trashed, not the Duchies.)

Maybe you could just increase the Province pile size in Rebuild games, fixing Rebuild without changing the card itself?

647

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: December 18, 2013, 11:57:33 am »

Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?

The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.

Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

If you want to change buying rules, I'd rather consider:

"You may not buy Rebuild unless a Province has been bought."

(You could use the Trade Route tokens to track this.)

648

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:33 am »

Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.

As I said above, Terminal Rebuild is weak enough that the "boring" Rebuild-BM is rarely the optimal strategy, which should increase the space of viable "interesting" strategies (though it does kill the Rebuild+TerminalAction-BM strategies).

But if you prefer to keep all of Rebuild's current interactions intact, I'd suggest making the card "semi-terminal" by using an "inverse Cultist clause":

Rebuild, $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.
You may play an Action from your hand other than Rebuild.


This would weaken Rebuild-BM and keep it weaker than Rebuild/Scavenger etc., so it's "strictly more interesting" than the published version IMO. It also has a curious synergy with every non-terminal Action card since these allow you to still play several Rebuilds in one turn.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: December 16, 2013, 05:04:19 pm »

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.  There is this sense of the published cards being the chosen ones, and that at most we may wish to tweak them.  Yet Donald's perspective is different.  He starts from various large collections of card ideas without any of them being particularly special.  For him, if Rebuild turns out to be unbalanced, the natural solution is to throw out Rebuild and use Card Idea X instead, rather than endlessly tweaking Rebuild until it works.

But Donald did consider terminal Rebuild unbalanced and (unfortunately) tweaked it to the current version, instead of replacing it by a different card. Only now that this does turn out to be unbalanced in the other direction does he mention a different card idea as a possible replacement.

Donald's alternative Rebuild to me seems like a not-too-interesting Lookout variant with potentially even higher luck factor - instead of the remote risk of trashing a Province, you may be lucky to rebuild a Gold in the late game, or unlucky and only reveal Coppers. I'm not sure if it's really more interesting than a fixed Rebuild; back then, Donald's playtesters didn't think so (of course, they already considered Rebuild fixed). Maybe LastFootnote has some experience playing with his "Build" now...

On the other hand, for the purposes of forum discussion, tweaks provide a much more manageable scope than all of the possible replacement cards.

Indeed; it's easier to judge a card that's similar to an existing one, I think.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild

« on: December 13, 2013, 08:33:06 am »

I don't think this would be too strong - you'd unwillingly hit a Province maybe every second time, so Rebuild is useless much more often than with terminal Rebuild.

If it's not a mirror, hitting Province isn't too bad for you because it still contributes to emptying the Province pile.

But if you often hit Province, emptying the Province pile is actually bad because you're probably losing. Rebuild isn't that good if it only nets you 1 or 1.5 VP per play - I'd rather play Monument or Ironworks-Great Hall...