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26

Game Reports / Opening <Cultist/Witch> / Copper ?

« on: February 25, 2016, 02:33:03 pm »

I've never known if it's best to open Cultist/Copper or Cultist/-, and similarly for Witch.  I open Cultist/Copper on games like these:

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160225/log.0.1456375411518.txt
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160220/log.0.1455985486171.txt

because playing a Cultist on T4 causes a shuffle, and hence your next shuffle will miss your Cultist (and you most likely could not afford one on T3).  Then again, not opening with the Copper, and playing the Cultist on T3, would cause a shuffle at the start of T4, which I would think is generally a good thing.  Obviously, this latter situation would be ideal, but it cannot be guaranteed.  So what is better in these situations -- opening Cultist/-, and hoping for the best?  If you opened Cultist/-, and draw the Cultist on T4, would you just not play it that turn?

Same would go for Witch instead of Cultist, or any other $5 card that draws +2 (I can't think of any others -- are there?).

Seems like this might a good question for the simulators.

EDIT: Vault.  But maybe because it's not a powerful junker, I would never open with the Copper.

27

Dominion General Discussion / Dominion Adages

« on: February 22, 2016, 09:14:26 pm »

I don't know who or when people first said these things, but they seem to resonate with the forum community to some degree.  Sorry if the wording is not 100% correct, or if I've misinterpreted in any way.  I can also give credit where credit is due, if people can track down original posts or whatever.

It's not about being ahead when the game ends; it's about ending the game when you're ahead.
This is, like, the single best piece of advice anyone can ever give to someone (about Dominion, of course).  When I'm teaching people how to play IRL, it's basically the first thing I say after they understand the concept of VP.  And then I repeat it usually 1 to 2 more times by the end of the game.

Everybody is a bad player; some are less bad than others.
I love this statement.  It's humbling.  Don't get too cocky because, although you may be better than some other people, you're still bad; so keep getting better.

Thinning is winning. / 1 really good thing is better than 2 pretty good things.
I lump these 2 phrases together because, although they're technically not the same thing, they both convey that you want a good deck that has a high (good cards) / (bad cards) ratio.  Of course there are exceptions (Fairgrounds, Gardens, you want a lot of cheap stuff, etc.).  But these phrases can be a good rule-of-thumb, especially to new players.  And in addition to explaining why it is good to have a good deck, they help explain things like
- why a Lab costs more than a Caravan
- why most of us think Steward is better for trashing than Amulet
- how Tactician can be good in a deck full of Treasures

You make your own shuffle luck. / YMYOSL
This phrase actually does not resonate with me nearly as much as it does other people.  But it certainly warrants praise, because I'm sure it helps people understand that we shouldn't blame bad luck every time we lose.  It doesn't resonate with me because luck plays a huge part in Dominion.  Period.  We can argue how much luck plays a factor, or the types of Kingdoms on which luck plays less or more of a part, or if some of us feel that the MF servers' random number generators are really not random at all, etc.  But we can't argue that luck exists.  You make as much of your own shuffle luck as possible.  YMAMOYOSLAP.  But in the end, if my Chapel misses my first reshuffle, then it misses my first reshuffle.  And then if the next 2 times it comes up, it does so with all my Silvers, then I just say well YMAMOYOSLAP.  (Wow, just realized, that almost looks like YO MAMA SLAP if you cross your eyes).

There is no such thing as optimal play.
I'm actually making this one up right now.  Feel free to disagree.  There are MAAAYYBBEE some exceptions on the very most simple of boards.  Like, something that simulators can show, and the logic behind those simulators can be proven beyond any doubt -- which might not even be possible.  So ya, I think a starving child in Africa dies every time somebody thinks they played "optimally", or wonders how they could play a board "optimally", or mentions the term "optimal" in discussion of strategy in any way except when saying how bad of a term it is.

- Any more?
- Thoughts?

28

Rules Questions / Black Market / Stonemason

« on: February 22, 2016, 12:37:35 pm »

Lets say I play Black Market and reveal Stonemason, Village, and Chancellor.  If I overpay for the Stonemason by $3, can I gain the Village and Chancellor?  Or can I only gain from the supply?  Note: Stonemason's on-buy doesn't say anything about whether the cards are in the supply or not.

29

Game Reports / Scavenger / Masterpiece?

« on: February 02, 2016, 01:39:18 am »

I usually like to post the most complicated boards I come across in my Dominion endeavors here, and try to stump the experts.  But this here is a (seemingly?) very simple board.

Code: [Select]

Haven, Fortune Teller, Masterpiece, Sage, Bureaucrat, Horse Traders, Ironmonger, Scavenger, Silk Road, Mystic
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454307027232.txt

I see nothing really going on.  No thinning, no draw, no strong >=$5 cards, no Colonies.  So I pretty much go double-Scavenger, as I feel that is kind of a thing when there's nothing much else going on.  I also go Masterpiece on my first $7, and Gold on $6.  My deck gets pretty strong, there's no real slowing it down, and I eventually start greening.

But my opponent is picking up Silk Roads.  And they're also picking up Estates when they can (Horse Traders).  They end up beating me, barely.

So my question is: Is Silk Road really a thing when there is nothing much going on except +buy?  Or should Scavenger / Masterpiece beat it?  Did I misplay?  When?  I realize it was very close and I had $7 once near the end, where $8 would have put me in a strong position to win.

30

Game Reports / Another Scrying Pool - Looter Board

« on: January 28, 2016, 06:09:45 pm »

Code: [Select]

Scrying Pool, Market Square, Steward, Caravan, Marauder, Nomad Camp, Bandit Camp, Bazaar, Journeyman, Mine
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160128/log.0.1453957344431.txt

I am at a loss here (literally).  This is why I can't reach that next level in Dominion.  I think critically about the board, try to base every decision I make on tried-and-true facts instead of on "gut feeling", and try to apply everything I've learned on the forums and elsewhere to these types of games.  But I still get completely crushed.  And boy, I've been in quite a slump lately.

Ok, I feel better after that rant.  Anyways... about this board.. I see Scrying Pool, good thinning, +buy, virtual economy, and also real economy with Golds from Market Square.  I see Marauder, but (1) there is good thinning, (2) Ruins gel with Scrying Pool, and (3) I don't necessarily want Spoils (at least I think I don't).  So I ignore Marauader, and open Potion/Steward.  Opponent opens Marauder (Ok, I'm fine with that) and Market Square (seem bad if you're not playing a Steward).

Game goes on.  I get somewhat bad luck, not getting to trash Estates (or Ruins) until T8 and drawing Potion dead on T4.  Meanwhile my opponent is giving me Ruins.  I still sort of feel like I'm in good shape.  Also, opponent is buying Bandit Camps, Journeymen, and a Caravan along the way.  I feel Bazaar is better than Bandit Camp early in the game here because Spoils no bueno for Scrying Pool.  I also feel you just don't need Caravan nor Journeymen at all as long as you have Scrying Pool for draw.

Long story short, I got completely owned.  I could never really recover from the Ruins.  I didn't pick up a Bazaar until T14 (!).

So, what is best here??  I was so incredibly confident that I was playing it correctly, but then was beaten so incredibly badly.

31

Dominion FAQ / Publicly-Available Game Data?

« on: January 14, 2016, 01:53:10 pm »

Is there any way to get (read-only) access to game data these days, whether it's through some API, or directly to MF's database(s), or whatever?  I've kinda always wanted to freely query it for various random purposes, e.g. to answer such questions as

- What are the cards that have the highest (winning player gains them) / (losing player does not gain them) ratio? (Followers and Trusty Steed are probably pretty high.)
- How would people be ranked in other ranking algorithms?
- How often do engines win against non-engines?
- How are peoples' ranks changing over time?  Who are the players on the fastest increase in rank?
- How advantageous (or not) is opening 5/2 over 4/3?
- etc.

I'm sure there are a gazillion other cool conclusions to be drawn from that data.  It would be fun to have access to it.

Related threads:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12475
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4882
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9993

32

Variants and Fan Cards / "Better" Adventurer Card

« on: January 12, 2016, 12:42:30 pm »

Just wanted to share this (and wasn't sure where else to put it)..

I moved recently, and as a going-away present, my ultimate frisbee friends made this 8" x 11" 'card' for me.  That's me in it.  It's framed on my wall now. 

33

Variants and Fan Cards / Throne Room Variant - Imperial Household

« on: December 24, 2015, 01:26:12 pm »

Code: [Select]

Imperial Household
$6
Action
Choose 2 Actions in your hand.  Play them each twice, in any order.
Not exactly sure on the wording, but it's intended to do something like:
I choose action cards A and B.  I can play them A-A-B-B, A-B-A-B, or A-B-B-A.  If I only have 1 other action card in my hand, it would be just like a Throne Room.  That is, if I only have A in my hand, then play A and draw a different action B, I can't play the B twice because it wasn't in my hand at the time of playing Imperial Household.

I think this card is interesting because it's sort of like Throne Room'ing a Throne Room, but actually allows additional mechanics due to the A-B-A-B and A-B-B-A possibilities.  Some synergies off the top of my head:

• Storeroom - Library - Storeroom - Library (or substitute Counting House, Scrying Pool, etc. for Library)
• Fortune Teller - Jester - Fortune Teller - Jester
• Scavenger - cantrip - Scavenger - cantrip

Also, I think it would introduce the need for some sort of transient "in-play" area.  So like if you played Imperial Household on A and B, and A were a Throne Room, you couldn't Throne the B -- because B wouldn't be in your hand.  But it would also not be in-play yet (it would go in-play once you play it).  EDIT: I guess Golem sort of already does this.

Thoughts?

34

Game Reports / Most Impressive Win I've Ever Seen

« on: November 27, 2015, 03:09:38 pm »

Code: [Select]

Hermit, Masterpiece, Tunnel, Herald, Ironworks, Baker, Count, Graverobber, Knights, Saboteur
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151112/log.0.1447313754347.txt

This was the single most impressive win I've seen by someone.  Ever.  Like, I was so completely blindsided by this one it's not even funny.  The game was played a few weeks ago, so I can't remember exactly how it was played or the thought processes going through my head at the time.  All I remember is that I thought I had the game on 100% lock, but then my opponent did some sort of Madman megaturn in which they Ironworks'ed all the remaining Tunnels and Estates for a 3-pile win.  After the game, I remember getting up from my computer, walking around the room talking out loud about how that could have happened, how incredibly good elite players actually are, and the weird things they can see that others don't.

So ya, I just wanted to save this log for future reference, and give credit to my opponent for one of the most impressive 3-pile endings I've ever seen.  Like, I don't even care about talking optimal strategies here, or getting better at Dominion, or how Knights kind of suck.  This was just one of those games that makes you feel like all what you've learned has been in vain because you will, inevitably, get destroyed by someone from Japan.

35

Dominion General Discussion / Post Your BORING Kingdom to Play

« on: October 10, 2015, 01:36:55 am »

I have an idea: instead of the most fun Kingdom, lets post what we think is the absolute most boring Kingdom to play.  There's only 2 main rules: no Rebuild, and no Cultist (so you can't just say Rebuild + 9 other useless cards, cus ya, that's way boring, but it's like, too lame).

"Boring" can mean whatever you want it to mean -- least complicated, least synergy between cards, most sloggy, etc.  Whatever you consider to be a lame game.  (I for one think slogs are not boring, because there are usually many intricate things to consider when playing them.)  And post why.

Note: your 10 least favorite Kingdom cards might not work because they may actually compose an interesting Kingdom.

I think it would be cool to see if there are common cards across all boring Kingdoms (Scout? Transmute? Etc.).  Or maybe there are bad cards that we rarely buy, but are somewhat fun to play with, and would therefore not make these boards.  Idk, would be interesting to see.

Side topic: I would think many of these Kingdoms would tend to players buying a lot of Silvers and Golds (because the Kingdom cards are so boring).  But what if the Silver and Gold piles were Embargo'd?  Would that make the Kingdom better?  Worse?

Here's mine:

• Transmute
• Embargo
• Pearl Diver
• Workshop
• Scout
• Silk Road
• Taxman
• Saboteur
• Farmlands
• Forge

These components have no synergy between each other (at least not that I can see), no real power, no way to double Province, and would take long compared to other games without powerful attacks (like >20 turns).

36

Game Reports / Lot of junking, but also good thinning

« on: September 22, 2015, 04:09:48 pm »

Code: [Select]

Moat, Ambassador, Masquerade, Oasis, Urchin, Marauder, Plaza, Highway, Expand, King's Court
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150920/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1442813040419.txt

I was very lost on this board.  I wound up winning, but mainly because I think my opponent was lost as well (and maybe because of some early shuffle luck).  Junk your opponent (Ambassador, Marauder)?  But there's good thinning (Masq, Merc).  Set up Highway chain?  But there's no source of +buy (except Ruined Market), and there are better targets for King's Court.

Ignoring the fact that I had better luck early with my Ambassadors than he (she?) did, I think the difference maker here turned out to be an unlikely hero: Marauder.  By playing a Marauder, I could get first crack at the ruin below the current one (this could also be accomplished with Expand, but not as easily, and plus I think the Spoils help as long as you don't have too many of them).  Abandoned Mine was on top, and I wanted a Ruined Market, so I played the Marauder until the Ruined Market came up.  I ended up buying it on T14, and never looked back from there because now my Highways and Spoils allowed me to get multiple good cards each turn.

PS: I think I also had pretty good luck with Moat.

So I wonder what was really the best route here.

37

Rules Questions / Bane Questions

« on: September 09, 2015, 07:22:27 pm »

Couple of questions regarding Young Witch's Bane:

(1) Young Witch says the Bane card must cost $2 or $3.  Can Stonemason, Doctor, and Masterpiece be the Bane?  Technically, they don't cost $2 or $3.

(2) When determining if you should put out Colonies/Platinums, you choose one of the Kingdom cards at random: if it's a Prosperity card, put out Colonies/Platinums; else, don't.  Do you include the Bane/11th card for this?  Same could be asked about Shelters / Dark Ages.

EDIT: Another somewhat-related question regarding Colonies/Platinums and Shelters.
From the Prosperity Rulebook:
"If a mix of Kingdom cards from Prosperity and other sets are being used, then the inclusion of Platinum and Colony in the Supply should be determined randomly, based on the proportion of Prosperity and non-Prosperity cards in use."
Does that mean green cards should have 8/10 the weight (in a 2-player game) as normal kingdom piles when choosing the "random" pile?  Similarly, should Rats have twice the weight?

38

Dominion General Discussion / Dominion One-Liners

« on: September 09, 2015, 04:10:05 pm »

Here's an idea:
Post a 1-sentence factoid about Dominion that in some way helps a new or intermediate player get better at the game.  It need not be backed up by data, or even be correct.  Just something that you've learned over time through experience or whatever.  So for example: boards with Stonemason tend to end in 3-piles. Or: Silvers are less valuable in Colony games.  Like I said, they might be completely wrong.  The point is, they are your experience, your interpretation, short, and to-the-point.  So pretty much the only requirement is keep the factoid to 1 sentence.

I'll periodically move the best / most-interesting / non-obvious factoids into the OP, so it's easy for someone to see them all in 1 place.

39

Dominion Articles / Rats!

« on: August 15, 2015, 06:58:04 pm »

I see some threads discussing some specifics of how/when to use Rats:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12452
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10437
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5090
So I figured I'd try to generalize the concepts from them into 1 place.  Disclaimer: I like writing my opinions to see how they're wrong, i.e. get feedback from other people.  So please correct me if I'm wrong

Rat Infestation!

In my experience, Rats is one of the easiest cards for inexperienced players to screw up.  It does not actually get rid of junk if you consider more Rats to be more junk.  Furthermore, it reduces your hand-size by 1.  I've often seen new players (including myself, multiple times) buy a Rats thinking "Oh cool, I can trash my bad cards", only to get infested with Rats, eventually buying coppers to try to get some payload back, and concluding "Well, Rats is is terrible."  But obviously that can't be what DX had in mind when he created it.

Trash-For-Benefit

I would bet paper money that DX intended that Rats be used hand-in-hand with trash-for-benefitters.  If there is any other major use of Rats, I'd like to hear about it.  Things like Upgrade, Salvager, etc. come to mind, as well some Dark Ages cards (but to a lesser extent) such as Death Cart and Graverobber.  Upgrading free Rats for $5 cards is fun, but the problem is, you have to buy and play the Rats in the first place.

For example, I buy a Rats on T1, play it on T3 to trash an Estate and gain a second Rats, then on T5 Upgrade the Rats (assuming I bought an Upgrade at some point) for that juicy Witch, while my deck still contains 1 Rats.  But the thing is, I could have just as easily bought a Silver on T1 and T3, and afforded the Witch on T5 with normal money.

So, When to Get Rats?

All of these should be true:

• You will need an engine.  I highly doubt Rats would ever be good in a non-engine scenario.  I'm not saying you need to have all other engine components lined up before you buy your first Rats; I'm saying you should at least have a plan to set up an engine eventually.
• You will need targets for your Rats.  These could be your starting 10 cards.  If you need more targets, you will want to be picking up more cheap cards.  If you play x Rats per turn, you will need to ensure you will have at least x targets for them to hit.
• Assuming you have trash-for-benefitting in the plan, you will ideally want 1 T4Ber for every Rats you have.  That is, if you have x Salvagers that you want to play per turn, and you want Rats as their targets, you will want to start your hand with at least x Rats in your deck.  For example, say I have 1 Upgrade and 1 Salvager.  I will want 2 Rats, play those 2 Rats on my junk targets (for a total of 4 Rats), then play the Upgrade and Salvager on those 2 new Rats.  I will also need to acquire 2 new cheap targets for the Rats if I don't already have them.

Of course, there are always some exceptions (Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty, Vineyards, etc.).  But as a rule of thumb, I would want to be able to ensure those 3 things before I go the Rats route.

EDIT: the 1 non-engine scenario in which Rats can be very useful is in a 3-pile slog.  Rats can trash Curses, while the ensuing 'infestation' does not actually make your deck all that much worse.  If there is any sort of even modest trash-for-benefitting support, and T4Bing a Rats can spike an occasional Duchy or whatever, then that can be the difference between winning and losing.

Also, consider these other "uses" of Rats:

Combo: Rats-Watchtower

Say your hand consists of Something-Something-Something-Rats-Watchtower.  You play Rats to gain another Rats, trash it with Watchtower, draw the extra card, then trash a card with the Rats.  So you don't actually gain another Rats, and you draw an extra card out of it.  You could repeat this process if you have another Rats.  This can be kind of cool.

(You can actually top-deck the new Rats with WT, instead of trashing it, then play it, repeating until potentially your entire deck is gone.)

Black Market Deck

It's unlikely, and certainly will never be the backbone of your strategy, but it's cool if you can get the Rats from the Black Market deck because you will never have to gain more Rats.

Vineyards

If the Rats route is the correct one for your deck (i.e. if the above mentioned scenarios collide), then they will work as a Vineyards-enabler.  If not, and you have no other synergies with your Rats (i.e. they're junk), then at the very least you could theoretically turn your starting 10 cards into 10 Rats (for a total of 11 Rats), which would bump your Vineyards by 3VP each.  But in this case, the Rats are basically worse than Ruins.  So use caution.

========================================

... Comments, questions, concerns???
Any other neat tricks that you can do with Rats?  EDIT: yes, see below
PS: Any reason why there are 20 instead of 10?  EDIT: I guess so multiple players can have a bunch of Rats.
PPS: I think it's weird that I have 1 "Rats", not 1 "Rat".  It's not like I have 1 "Squires", 1 "Beggars", etc.  EDIT: 1 "Goons", 1 "Horse Traders" or 1 "Smugglers", etc.

=================EDITS==================

The below are other synergies/tricks with Rats.  Some of them are more "fringe-case" than others, but I believe they are all worth a mention.

Other Notable 2-Card Combos

Rats - Market Square.  At least as good as straight BM by itself; better with support (e.g. Smithy).
credit: sudgy

Rats - Trader.  Rats/Trader is generally better than just Trader.
credit: jomini

Rats - Apprentice.  Can be very powerful.  Rats can trash Coppers (which Apprentice doesn't like trashing), and Apprentice the Rats.  Of course, you'll want additional payload.
credit: Chris is me

Cards That Care About Actions

Any card that cares about whether or not another card is an action will be affected by Rats -- Scrying Pool, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Library, etc.  Even if the Rats are junk, these cards can consider them less junky than non-action junk (of course, if the Rats are not junk, then that's even better).
credit: ehunt & Chris is me

Endgame Desperation

Say there's 1 Province left, you're down by 5vp, and your hand consists of Gold-Silver-Silver-Rats-Province. You might as well play the Rats, given that if you have to chuck a Silver and end up with $5, that's no worse than having the $7, while it gives you a chance to draw that Gold or Cultist which would win you the game.  Of course, we're ignoring how that Rats could have just been a Silver.
credit: DG

40

Puzzles and Challenges / How Many Set-Ups Are There?

« on: July 29, 2015, 10:19:33 am »

One of the reasons why I love Dominion so much is that you never play the same game twice.  And I also like discrete math.  So to that...

How many possible set-ups of Dominion are there?  I use "set-up" instead of "Kingdom" here because I want to include non-Kingdom cards -- Colonies, Shelters, the Black Market deck, etc.  Lets not include Adventures (so everything up to and including Guilds).  A lower bound would be the number of possible Kingdoms = number of available Kingdom cards choose 10 = 205 choose 10 ~ 3 x 10 ^ 16.

But then there are more things to consider:

• Colonies/Platinums
• Shelters
• The cards in the BM deck (lets say the cards matter, but the order in which they're put there doesn't)
• The Bane/11th card
• What ruins are in ruins pile (Is it always 2 of each, or is it random, or what?  If it's always the same, then it wouldn't matter.)
• etc.

Lets assume 2-players (so always 10 curses, 10 ruins, 8 per green pile, etc.).

Follow-up question: how long would it take to play all such games if every person in the world played Dominion all the time (1) assuming no set-up repeats, and (2) assuming repeats?  (Make whatever assumptions you'd need.)

41

Dominion General Discussion / Embassy!

« on: July 22, 2015, 09:13:55 am »

I love Embassy.  It's an elegantly simple card, relatively easy to understand and use, and it's quite often clear when it's the most powerful card in the Kingdom.  What I mean by that is, when (1) there is no possibility of a fancy engine deck, and (2) there are no powerful attack cards (especially hand-size-reducers), Embassy-BM is very often the way to go.  In a BM deck, playing an Embassy almost always spikes at least a Gold and (perhaps more importantly) sifts really well.

Therefore, it is quite often that players end up in an Embassy-BM mirror.  In which case, the game often seems to come down to luck (who's Embassiess don't collide, who hits $8 in the end game instead of $7, etc.).  In such mirrors, I was wondering if there is a reliable way to break the green split without relying so much on that luck.  Specifically, is there any sort of consensus on things like

• What is the best opener -- Embassy/-, Embassy/good-$2-card, or Silver/Silver?
• How many Embassies should I get (2, 3, ...) vs. Golds?
• At what point are Duchies better than Golds?  (I would assume earlier than normal because of Embassy's awesome sifting and ability to spike Provinces even with a lot of green in deck.)
• When there are 2 provinces left and players are nearly tied in VP, we usually each start buying Duchies... in which case, what is a reliable way to break the tie?
• How do these things change in a Colony game?

All of these are inspired by this game.

42

Game Reports / To Pool or Not To Pool?

« on: July 09, 2015, 02:44:28 pm »

Code: [Select]

Candlestick Maker, Chapel, Scrying Pool, Doctor, Village, Wishing Well, Alchemist, Scavenger, Counting House, Torturer
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150707/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1436322392214.txt

So my opponent went straight up Chapel-BM here, while I tried to get fancy with Scrying Pools and CM for economy.  I lost by 1 point.  I think had I not gotten somewhat unlucky on turns 4 and 6 (drawing Chapel with my Potion, Coppers, and one other terminal instead of with Estates), I may have come out on top.  But whatever.

However, this game did make me reflect upon a more general question: In which kingdoms is there Scrying Pool, thinning, +buys, economy, and villages, but yet should not be a Scrying Pool game?  Even with weak versions of these components (Trade Route for thinning, terminal silvers for economy, Nobles for village, etc.), I pretty much will always go for Pools, no exceptions.  Is this wrong?  What types of boards, if any, are there all of these components yet Pool is bad?  Something like Chapel-Scavenger-BM?  Mountebank w/ bad thinning?  Double-Jack?  I'm not sure.  Maybe there are none.

43

Dominion General Discussion / When is Mint + Secret Chamber Opener Good?

« on: June 25, 2015, 12:48:00 pm »

I recently played a game:

http://gokosalvager.com/kingdomvisualize?logurl=http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20150624/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1435199216106.txt&width=100&submit=Search
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150624/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1435199216106.txt

in which my opponent opened Mint + Secret Chamber on a $5/$2, and my original thought was "Well that was a terrible mistake" (because Mint + <anything besides Fool's Gold> is usually a terrible opener).  But then I realized there was Ironworks on the board, in which case you could theoretically get $4 on T3, buy the Ironworks, and continue to build some sort of Fortress / Swindler / Margrave engine.

Ignoring that I won the game (possibly in large part to how Swindler can screw up any sort of planned strategy), it got me wondering: in what type(s) of Kingdoms are a Mint + Secret Chamber opening a good idea, if any?  Is Mint -> SC -> Silver (buying Silver on T3) good?  Would you need a Workshop variant (preferably non-terminal) on T3 instead?  Do you avoid Silver and plan on eventually Trash-for-Benefiting away the Mint?  Or are these things just too slow (slower than, say, Silver - Silver opener)?

44

Game Reports / Double Island Opener Wins

« on: June 15, 2015, 03:23:50 pm »

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150612/log.516cd492e4b082c74d7a247a.1434158061962.txt

Code: [Select]

Haven, Vagrant, Watchtower, Gardens, Island, Treasure Map, Wandering Minstrel, Baker, Catacombs, Explorer
Relatively simple board here.  Good draw (Catacombs), no real thinning, no attack cards.  So some BM variant seemed the obvious way to go.

My opponent opened double Island (Baker was in Kingdom), and won.  Very surprised here.  I really didn't see it coming, and have pretty much always considered Island to be a terrible opener, much less buying TWO of them (except in a few edge cases).  It soon became clear to me that my opponent was aiming for a double - Treasure Map - BM thing, but even still I thought that would be just too slow compared to my Gold/Haven opening.  I had 2 Golds by turn 4, and was pretty much just buying Golds & Catacombs & Provinces from there on out.

Perhaps my opponent got lucky by pairing the TMs on T8 (just 3 turns after buying the first TM).  Regardless, was that the best strategy here?  Were TMs a last-ditch effort to "catch up" to my Gold/Haven opener?  Did I start greening too early (T8)?  Really confused here.  Props to MX though!

45

Game Reports / Dame Josephine to the Rescue!

« on: May 20, 2015, 08:02:50 am »

Code: [Select]

Pawn, Scrying Pool, Forager, Watchtower, Bureaucrat, Farming Village, Treasure Map, Knights, Altar, Fairgrounds
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150519/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1432081330415.txt

Really crazy board here.  My opponent and I were each drawing our deck by turn 9.  Plan here was to get Pools, get an Altar asap, and use it to get Knights and Farming Villages, and throw in a second Altar eventually.  We both played far from optimally however (I think I had 4 terminals to my 1 Farming Village at one point in time; opponent bought a Watchtower which was terrible; etc.).  Nonetheless, both of our decks became very pretty, yet vulnerable to each other's Pool/Knight attacks.  My opponent gained from piles on his (her?) last turn, which gave me BARELY enough pile control to end it.  And wouldn't you know it... my Dame Josephine was the only thing that let me pile the game for a win.  My opponent surely would have been able to had I not.

I always thought Josephine had a purpose -- just didn't realize it til now.

46

Rules Questions / Band of Misfits as Herbalist

« on: May 15, 2015, 08:56:26 am »

Yet another BoM question...

I'm wondering about the clauses

• "This is that card until it leaves play."
• "When you discard this from play..."

on the BoM and Herbalist cards, respectively.  Goko says (1) happens first, i.e. a BoM as an Herbalist does not trigger the Treasure top-decking event.  Why can't it happen the other way around?  That is, the "When you discard this from play" event occurs in the real world at some single point in time t, at which point the BoM is still an Herbalist -- so the top-decking is triggered, because you're in the process of discarding an Herbalist.

Why not handle this similar to when multiple reactions are being triggered on "when x happens"?  E.g. if you have a Secret Chamber and a Moat in hand, and opponent plays an attack, you get to choose which one to react first, right?  (I could be wrong here, not sure.)  By this reasoning, I would think when multiple "when you discard this from play" triggers are fired, you should be able to choose the order in which they're resolved.

Or am I over thinking this?

47

Game Reports / Chapel vs. Merc for Thinning

« on: April 30, 2015, 08:12:41 am »

Code: [Select]

Chapel, Scrying Pool, Urchin, Ironmonger, Apprentice, Cartographer, Haggler, Hoard, Hunting Grounds, Expand
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150429/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1430362154985.txt

Disclaimer: I think I would have lost this game had it not been for my opponent's royal misclick on their T13 (accidentally not playing their 2 Hagglers).

Obviously the key here is winning the Ironmonger split, so that you can play more terminal engine components -- Expands, Hagglers, whatever.  And Hagglers are huge so that you can gain all the engine components in the absence of +buys; and also to feed your Apprentice, Merc, Expand, etc.  So that was the plan -- thin down, get a Haggler asap, use it to buy things like Hunting Grounds and snag Ironmongers, etc. etc. etc.  But my opponent and I had 2 different approaches to such a goal, and I'm wondering which one was better.

He (or she?) opened Silver-Chapel, while I opened Urchin-Urchin.  In hindsight, the Silver-Chapel was probably better because it is faster -- get that Haggler earlier, get those Ironmongers, etc.  U-U is just a little too slow here because you don't actually get much economy until you can play the Merc and collide it with a Silver or something, so getting the first Haggler would usually take longer.  And that's exactly what happened -- I got my first Haggler on T8 while opponent got theirs on T5.  So if it weren't for the attacking aspect of Merc, I would have been very behind at that stage of the game (I was behind at mid-game, but not by much IMO).

Thoughts?

48

Rules Questions / Trashing Hand w/ Count + Market Square

« on: April 17, 2015, 08:36:44 am »

Say I have a hand of Count, Copper, Copper, Copper, Market Square.  I play the Count, top deck a Copper, then trash my hand.  Should the Market Square's on-trash reaction trigger?  That is, can I trash the Coppers "before" the MS, and therefore trigger it's reaction because it's still in my hand?  Goko says you cannot, and everything gets trashed at once.

Being able to react the MS would mean you are reacting it after the Count starts, but before it's finished resolving.  This seems weird, but isn't that how reactions work?  I can react my Watchtower during my opponent's Followers (I play the reaction after I gain the Curse but before I have to discard).  I can react my Tunnel during my Vault (after I discard but before my opponent chooses to discard).  Etc.  So why can't I react the MS after I've trashed some cards with Count, but before I've trashed others?

49

Rules Questions / Oracle Drawing Order

« on: March 23, 2015, 01:18:28 pm »

When you play an Oracle, and you want to draw the 2 cards you just revealed, Goko lets you choose the order in which you put them back on your deck before you continue to draw them.  Does this order ever really matter?  I can see that it matters for the opponents of the player playing the Oracle, but not the player him/herself.

50

Dominion Articles / Surprising Openers

« on: March 19, 2015, 10:13:59 am »

At some point in time, I had come across this site that ranks many of the possible openers with each other.  That is, openers like Mountebank / Chapel are ranked higher than Scout / Chancellor, etc.  To my understanding, the list is ranked something like opener X is better than opener Y if the percentage of games in which a player opens X and their opponent doesn't and wins, is higher than the same thing for opening Y.  I'm not 100% on the mechanics of the calculations, but this definition suffices for the discussion below.

Some asides about the site

• It doesn't contain any Dark Ages or Guilds cards. So you don't see opening-wackiness with things like Baker, Stonemason, Doctor, etc. Also, it always assumes Estates (no Shelters).
• It probably doesn't have a lot of data for openers that people don't actually do very often, e.g. openers that contain Curses or Coppers. But it still attempts to rank everything.
• I don't really know how it handles things like Nomad Camp or Noble Brigand (but who cares about those cards anyways??)

(If anyone knows a more complete/reliable place for ranking openers, I'd like to know about it.)

After browsing through the page, a few relationships between different openers were very surprising to me.  I've listed 10 of these observations below, and attempted some sort of explanation for them.  In this list, "Better Opening" and "Worse Opening" are 2 different openers in which they both contain a common card, and the "Better Opening" has a higher rank than the "Worse Opening" according to the site.

Any discussion is welcome.

	Better Opening	Worse Opening	Possible Explanation
1	Courtyard / Upgrade	Courtyard / Ill-Gotten Gains	Both are good $5 cards.  But I would think $2/$5 would be a huge advantage over $3/$4 in kingdoms with Courtyard and IGG, more so than it would be in kingdoms with Courtyard and Upgrade.  Maybe I am underestimating Upgrade though.
2	Ambassador / -	Ambassador / Oasis	I realize both Ambassador and Oasis reduce your hand size, but I really would think the Oasis would help with (1) cycling, and (2) pairing Estates with Estates, or Coppers with Coppers for the Ambassador.  I would especially think (2) would be good in the early game when you're generally not buying stuff on the turns you're playing Ambassador (because you have just $1 or $2 to spend).
3	Silver / Salvager	Silver / Militia	I guess I can see this one because both are good.  But Militia is just so powerful.  Maybe the chances of your opponent discarding junk (Estates) when Militia'd early are higher than I thought.
4	Silver / Island	Silver / Tournament	No explanation here.  Island is generally not a good opener, except in a few edge cases.  And Tournament is the bomb.  Silver / Tournament is actually very low compared to many other Tournament / <x> openings.  Is there something I am missing about Tournament?  I realize it's more of an engine-enabler, compared to a BM-enabler.  Maybe that's why it doesn't synergize with Silver as much as I thought it would.
5	Loan / Island	Loan / Militia	No explanation here.  Similar reasoning as above.
6	Chapel / Contraband	Chapel / Cache	I guess with Cache, you're at higher risk of missing Chapel in your first reshuffle.  But Contraband just stinks to me.  I would probably take Chapel / Cache over Chapel / Contraband on most boards, and risk missing Chapel on the first reshuffle.
7	Cellar / Pawn, Cellar / Scheme	Cellar / Tunnel	Obviously, none of these are great openers.  But at least Cellar / Tunnel has some synergy, with roughly a 35% chance of gaining an easy Gold before the second reshuffle.
8	Wishing Well / Remake	Wishing Well / Ambassador	It seems all the benefits of Wishing Well for Remake (getting an Estate into your hand that you otherwise would not have had,  to get Remake'd), would exist for Ambassador (getting Estate into hand to return it with Ambassador).  So I don't see why Remake would be better here.  Ambassador is just so powerful.
9	Baron / ANYTHING	Baron / Estate	I realize you're pretty much always better off opening Baron / - than Baron / Estate.  But come on.  Estate is worse than, say, a Tunnel?  Or a Curse??  Only explanation here is there is not enough data, i.e. people don't actually open Baron / Crap often enough for the data to show a reliable rank of which Crap is better.
10	Caravan / Trade Route	Caravan / Silver, Caravan / Loan	With Trade Route being such a weak thinner, and its rare economy activation near the beginning of the game, I would surely think old reliable Silver would be the better opener, and Loan as the better thinner/sifter.