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201

Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet-another tournament scoring thread.

« on: December 04, 2013, 10:15:05 pm »

for 27 people, three rounds of three-player Swiss is, ignoring ties, enough to determine a single top player--only one player can win three games in a row.

I'm not actually using a 'proper' Swiss ranking algorithm (where you match people after each round based on their scores), because I haven't found a good way to do so that also satisfies the following criteria:

• Supports up to 27 players, using at most 9 Kingdoms.
• 3-Player games whenever possible (No 2-player Kingdoms, and no more than two 4-player Kingdoms).
• Nobody plays a second 4-player game unless everyone has played a 4-player game.
• Nobody ever replays a Kingdom.
• Players play as many different opponents as possible (given the other criteria).
• Doesn't require a lot of time between rounds.

If you can figure out how to do a true Swiss matching while satisfying the above, I'll seriously consider using it.  Lacking that, I'm using shuffle charts, which move the players between tables in keeping with the above criteria. 

Maybe in January we can talk tournament theorycrafting while playing a game or two.  Maybe even Dominion!

Sounds good to me!

202

Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet-another tournament scoring thread.

« on: December 04, 2013, 12:19:29 pm »

First, that's about as many rounds as anyone can play back-to-back and still have fun.

Challenge accepted.

Heh...okay, there may be exceptions.  But then you'll have to either get up an hour earlier, or drive back an hour later.

In order to have more rounds of play, I would probably have to make it a two-day (probably Sat/Sun) tournament, with the semis/final on the second day.  Which I'd be fine with doing, if it seemed like enough people wanted it; the hotel offers steep discounts to convention attendees who stay overnight.

203

Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet-another tournament scoring thread.

« on: December 04, 2013, 08:01:21 am »

You should never, ever, ever use VP as a tie-breaker of any sort.

Agreed, and that was one of Rio Grande's rules.

The thing is, Dominion just has so much randomness that you need quite a lot of Swiss matches to say anything meaningful about the outcome, I'd think at least 7.

The Michigan tournament had four preliminary Swiss rounds, then the top nine players advanced to the semifinals and played three more, then the top three players (all of whom would receive prizes) played a final game to determine their placement.  The final was a single game for two reasons:  First, that's about as many rounds as anyone can play back-to-back and still have fun.  Second, a single game provides a climax to the event; if the winner were to be decided based on cumulative records, we could get a situation where we already know the winner before the final round, so there's wouldn't be much thrill in it.

204

Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet-another tournament scoring thread.

« on: December 04, 2013, 01:18:41 am »

Simply playing the same kingdoms, rotating around the room, and tallying up # of wins (or points if multiplayer) should be balancing enough.

The problem with duplicate Kingdoms is the number of sets required; to do six tables of the same Kingdom, you need six copies of each of the sets required.  Most people don't have that.  Rio Grande sponsored the Michigan tournament, providing 1-2 copies of each set, plus a bunch of base cards, and it was still a challenge to figure out enough fun Kingdoms that didn't overlap cards, so that I could play them at the same time.  In the end I came up with nine, so I could handle up to 27 players.

Wait -- now that I think about it, did the tournament in Michigan recently have this structure? Kingdoms were pre-set and you just walked around to your next table? Did everyone end up playing the same kingdoms by the end?

The number of sets depended on the number of players; we had 19, which made for five 3P and one 4P (2P games are not allowed in official tournaments).  We played four prelim rounds, because that's all there was time for; I'd have loved to have done six, but that would mean something like 9 hours straight of Dominion, which would probably strain even the most dedicated player's stamina.

A benefit with duplicate is that Kingdoms could be pre-randomized according to particular criteria or designed! (I am definitely in favor of more tournaments using designed kingdoms. Or a tournament that randomizes from only two expansions at a time. Or whatever!)

I also recommend designed Kingdoms.  Sadly, while random Kingdoms can be entertaining in that they're each technically unique, too often they fall into one of a few standard patterns (Slog, BM, etc), have some cards that you'd never buy, or that otherwise generate a humdrum game.  A well-designed Kingdom, by contrast, has some strategic depth to it, with real choices to be made, and every card should have a part in at least one plausible strategy.  Also, a good tournament Kingdom should make it difficult to take excessively long turns.  Not impossible (I think that trying to get a massive engine is part of the fun), but the players should have to work for it.  Most of the Michigan tourney sets either were a little light on +Card, or were designed so that an engine player would need to wrap the game up reasonably quickly to avoid being 3-piled.  Possession was the only card I refused to even consider using.

205

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 27, 2013, 11:19:28 pm »

Incidentally, Colony&Platinum are not supposed to be in that Kingdom.  They were put in by accident, and by the time I noticed, play had already begun.

That really changes things. In the game I played with this set, once people got Platina they stopped caring about Knights. In a Province game this kind of thing can never happen... on the other hand, it strengthens Rebuild a touch.

Yeah, having the Plats in there probably made it easier for an early leader to lock in that lead.  My intent was to have the money strategies always be vulnerable to the Knights.

206

Dominion World Masters / Save the Date: U-Con Gaming Convention, November 14-16, 2014

« on: November 27, 2013, 10:57:32 am »

The dates for the next convention have been announced, BTW:  November 14-16, 2014

I'm not promising to run another tournament right now, but if I do, that'll be the weekend.

207

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 26, 2013, 08:55:10 pm »

Dame Trasher guy manages to put together a deck with only Crossroads and Platinum left and completely owns us. I got last.

Incidentally, Colony&Platinum are not supposed to be in that Kingdom.  They were put in by accident, and by the time I noticed, play had already begun.

208

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 26, 2013, 01:02:14 am »

Potions, Crossroads, Fortune Teller, Hermit, Rats, Highway, Knights, Rebuild, Harem, Vineyard, Golem

I get some Rats for defense. One of my opponents sees this and says, laughing, to someone watching the game "look, he doesn't know how bad Rats is!" I thought he was kidding, turns out he wasn't and proceeded to lay into me for five minutes after the game about it. What a swell guy.

If it makes you feel any better, you beat that guy's score solidly in both the prelims and semis.

I think that (as often happens with situational cards), many people first try to use Rats at the wrong time, or in the wrong way, and upon failing, defensively presume that it must be the card's fault, rather than questioning their use of it.  Rats isn't a deck-trimmer; it's a fast Remodel variant that turns a (presumably) useless card into a slightly less useless card.  Clearly, your opponent hadn't caught on to the defensive potential of Rats vs. Knights.

One of my design parameters for this Kingdom was to have deck thinning require the concerted use of two components (Rats to eat Copper, and either Hermit to convert Rats->Hermit->Madman, or an opponent's Knight to just slay the Rats outright).  But even though it's tricky to do, it's actually pretty fast, because Rats is a cantrip, Hermit can hit your discard pile (so you don't need to connect it with the Rats), and an opponent's Knight doesn't cost you an action and gives you the bonus card to boot.

Fickleness of the Knights aside, this is actually my favorite set of the tournament.  There are at least three very distinct strategies available, with a couple variants, and the right one to choose very much depends on what your opponents are doing.

209

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 25, 2013, 11:14:19 pm »

Shelters, Potions, Platinum, Colony, Cellar, Scheme, Fishing Village, Baron, Marauder, Baker, Fairgrounds, Governor, Goons, Scrying Pool.

I think library could have replaced the useless Baron. It's good defense against discard attacks, and combos wonderfully with fishing village.

That would break the one-card-per-set design rule; I'd need to use a card from Intrigue.  How about Masquerade?   

More seriously, how about Minion?

210

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 25, 2013, 02:05:40 am »

The 1-minute warning does not arrive and they tell me my next turn would be my last (I had top-decked a Native Village to a Ghost Ship play). Minor freakout, but I show Elestan my Native Village mat and explain and he lets us all have one more turn.

While I'd love to say I was just a softie, if I had given the one minute warning on schedule, I would have felt obliged to end the game anyway, regardless of the mountain of cards on your NV mat.  But you had the right to rely on that warning, so letting the game go one more round was the most fair way to remedy its lack.

211

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 09:24:56 am »

Thanks for the writeup shark_bait; after designing these sets, it's fun for me to see how they got played by the DS.com crowd.  Hopefully Robz888, AdamH, liopoil, EFHW, and dethwing will post similar reports.

212

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 02:45:06 am »

Then, going into the final match, [Jordan] was on 6 point, with 3 others on 10. He need both to win AND have at least one of the other 10 point people come in 3rd just to force a tie. Which happened.

He definitely earned that win on Semifinal set 1 though.  I think he was the only one who constructed the full Rebuild/Crossroads/Hermit engine.

213

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 02:37:34 am »

I played the IGG set and I didn't have any problems with it. I went for Thief/Gardens with Poor Houses and actually won the 3P game.

I think that sometimes 2-player duelist players forget how potent Thief is in a multiplayer Gardens game.  I saw a number of people disdaining it today, at least until someone else cursed them with their own purloined IGG.

214

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 01:49:34 am »

So?  What's the word?  Who won?!

The winner, btw, was Jordan M., who I believe you know from the Michigan convention scene.

215

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 01:38:17 am »

I *should* have won.  After getting 3 1st's and a 2nd in the qualifiers followed by 3 wins in the semi's I made it to the finals.

shark_bait definitely had the consistently strongest play throughout the tournament.  Good job, mate!

Hopefully the tournament organizer will post the Kingdom here.

Your wish is my command.  My only request is that nobody (except me) enter these in the DS.com kingdom design contest.  Also, if anyone plays these sets online, please post a link to the log in this thread.

Preliminary Kingdoms:

• Shelters, Embargo, Chapel, Forager, Death Cart, Pirate Ship, Cultist, Junk Dealer, Torturer, Fairgrounds, Farmland
• Colony, Platinum, Potions, Courtyard, Develop, Menagerie, Warehouse, Fortress, Noble Brigand, Duke, Grand Market, Transmute, Apothecary
• Duchess, Tunnel, Baron, Bishop, Jack of All Trades, Silk Road, Scout, Walled Village, Hunting Grounds, Count
  (This was the only 4P Kingdom, until a player dropped out)
• Native Village, Secret Chamber, Vagrant, Lookout, Bridge, Sea Hag, Butcher, Ghost Ship, Tribute, Harvest
• Haven, Urchin, Cutpurse, Horse Traders, Spice Merchant, Trader, Cache, Counting House, King's Court, Forge
• Colony, Platinum, Herbalist, Masterpiece, Swindler, Farming Village, Remake, Witch, Hoard, Bank, Expand, Peddler

Semifinal Kingdoms:

• Potions, Crossroads, Fortune Teller, Hermit, Rats, Highway, Knights, Rebuild, Harem, Vineyard, Golem
• Fool's Gold, Squire, Doctor, Market Square(Bane), Menagerie, Shantytown, Watchtower, Young Witch, Merchant Guild, Pillage, Tactician
• Poorhouse, Coppersmith, Gardens, Moneylender, Noble Brigand, Bandit Camp, Counterfeit, Ill-Gotten-Gains, Rogue, Thief
  This was the only Kingdom I wasn't happy with, and looking back over my notes, I see why.  Kirian (who had kindly reviewed a few of these sets) had noted the likelihood of an IGG rush on this one, and I'd planned to adjust for it, but the change got lost in the shuffle, so to speak.  My bad, and kudos to Kirian for the correct call.

Speed Tiebreaker Kingdom:  Chapel, Market Square, Bridge, Gardens, Ironworks, Talisman, Council Room, Haggler, Jester, Border Village

That one had a 20 minute time limit, but finished in six, and I'll bet that it could be finished in less.

Final Kingdom:  Shelters, Potions, Platinum, Colony, Cellar, Scheme, Fishing Village, Baron, Marauder, Baker, Fairgrounds, Governor, Goons, Scrying Pool.

The design plan on this one was different:  Rather than tricky strategic interactions, I decided to make the final set a tour-de-force of all of the Dominion sets, to commemorate their completion.  So I had one card from each set (counting promos as a set), preferring cards that were in keeping with the set's theme.

...and that's all the sets that were played!  I'll save the ones I didn't end up using, for future fun.

216

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 24, 2013, 01:04:52 am »

I'd like to thank everyone who showed up and played; the presence of the DS.com folks definitely upped the game, and made it a lot more exciting for the good players, and more educational for the less experienced ones.

From the organizer's chair, I can offer this pieces of advice to anyone else considering running a similar tournament:  Make shuffle charts in advance for every possible number of players.  Shuffle charts are the tables used to seat players in the Kingdoms each round, so that one can optimally satisfy the following (In priority order):

• No 2-player games allowed.
• No player plays the same Kingdom twice.
• As few 4-player games as possible.
• All players play the same number of 4-player games, to the extent possible.
• Each player plays each other player as few times as possible.

I had 21 players reserve tickets, and had charts pre-prepared for 21-27 players.  The charts are fairly easy for multiples of three, but they can take quite a while to work out when the 4-player rules come into play.

Unfortunately, I had four no-shows, and only two sign-ups, which left me with 19 players.  So while the games were running, I was hunched over my computer working out the shuffle permutations while my assistant supervised the games.  In the end, I came up with charts that met the critical rules, although they had some players playing each other more than I would have liked.  And then someone dropped out halfway through the prelims, so I had to redo them.

But, in the end, it seemed like the players had fun, and that's the important thing.

Thanks again to everyone who showed up, and maybe we'll try this again next year!

217

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: November 21, 2013, 12:17:56 pm »

I would like to see a clause that allows games to be finished to completion if it appears obvious that a player is slow-playing to game the system.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have time limits, but in a convention setting time is a limited resource, because another event could be booked in that space right after the tournament is scheduled to end.  Also, allowing one game to run long would keep all of the other players waiting idle, which is not fun for them.

There will be advance warning as the time limit approaches, but players should also factor the time limit into their strategy decisions; choosing a very long game strategy will carry some additional risk in this format, especially in the qualifier rounds.

if I decide someone's taking advantage, I'll deal with it, but it is my hope that all of the players will show good sportsmanship and not give me cause to intervene.   Come.  Play.  Have fun!

218

Dominion World Masters / Preregistration Extended!

« on: November 06, 2013, 10:51:22 am »

Good news!  Preregistration has been extended until Friday ( Nov 8 ).  So if you haven't signed up yet, there's still time!

219

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: October 31, 2013, 07:45:47 pm »

Convention pre-registration membership is $20 for Fri-Sat-Sun or $15 for just Saturday; these go up by $5 at the door.  Note that this is way less than you'd pay for the big cons like Origins or GenCon.

I'll add that if these fees are a hardship, you can also pay in time by volunteering.  Four hours of time helping with the convention gets your weekend badge price refunded.  See https://www.ucon-gaming.org/participation/volunteers for details.

220

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: October 31, 2013, 07:41:02 pm »

Soo... after looking around on the website, it looks like pre-registration ends tomorrow night. That E-mail address in the OP, though, can I use that to get into the tournament after tomorrow night? Is that guaranteed? I probably won't want to go to any other parts of the convention.

Is there an extra fee to get into the convention or is it just $10 to play in the tournament? I may bring some IRL friends who play...

Convention pre-registration membership is $20 for Fri-Sat-Sun or $15 for just Saturday; these go up by $5 at the door.  Note that this is way less than you'd pay for the big cons like Origins or GenCon.  The Dominion tournament ticket is $10 additional.

Online pre-registration might not get closed for another day or two after the posted date; they sometimes allow a grace period (but best not to rely on it).

If you don't get your ticket before pre-registration closes, you can email me at dominion2013@ucon-gaming.org, and I'll hold a ticket for you.  Latecomers have to pay the at-the-door price for convention membership, though, and I'll ask them to show up early on Saturday to pick up their tickets.  Unclaimed tickets will be released for sale if the event sells out.

221

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: October 31, 2013, 07:14:15 pm »

Unfortunately she's not into Dominion -- she dislikes games with lots of interesting and difficult decisions, which is exactly what I like about games, including Dominion. Also, she's pretty introverted so a convention where there are a lot of people is something I'm pretty sure she'd hate.

Most of the people at this convention are introverts, so that's one thing she'd have in common to start with.  If she's never been to a convention before, I'd highly encourage trying it at least once, even if she just does some of the lighter open gaming. There are also roleplaying games, if she's so inclined...and it's at a hotel, so she can always go back up to the room to recharge her social batteries.  Con attendees get hotel rooms for nearly half price.

222

Dominion World Masters / Re: Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: October 31, 2013, 10:21:26 am »

I could be losing so many boy points because of this...

Bring her along!  There are plenty of games at the con for hardcore and casual gamers both!

223

Dominion World Masters / Official Dominion Tournament at U-Con, Nov 23, 2013, Ypsilanti, MI

« on: October 30, 2013, 01:08:02 am »

This tournament is sanctioned by Rio Grande, and will be a qualifier for the World Masters, if there is one in 2014.

This event will feature custom-designed kingdoms drawn from all of the Dominion sets and expansions, and will emphasize strategy and high-level play.

Details and a registration link are here.

Convention preregistration closes soon!  If you would like to reserve a place after registration has closed, email dominion2013@ucon-gaming.org.

Registration has now closed, but there are still some tickets available for purchase at the con.  I hope to see you there!