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7901
Dominion General Discussion / Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $5 cards
« on: February 02, 2012, 04:23:08 pm »
+2 cards>$2 because in general, your average card value is better than $1, you cycle a little, and if you have extra actions you might chain into more actions you can play. But if your deck is low in value, well, generally getting $2 now is going to help more. I'd expect.

7902
Dominion General Discussion / Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $5 cards
« on: February 02, 2012, 04:09:01 pm »
I'm not sure I agree with Witch > Mountebank, as some people are saying now. Okay, +2 cards is better than +$2 in general, except when your deck is going to be very low value, like... in cursing games for example. Well, even then it's still probably going to be pretty even. But even if +2 cards has the edge it's a small one. Then the cards actual effect. Mountebank hits harder. It can be blocked, but it's pretty unlikely until the opponent has about ~3 curses. I just don't think Witch's higher reliability makes up for that.

7903
Actually, once the Dominion card rank lists are fully out, we could probably throw together a formula to do this sort of analysis in a rough way.  Alchemy would be a bit of an outlier though, as most of its cards all fall in the same list....and Prosperity has a similar issue with the high value cards.  Still, it'd be interesting to see if those lists suggest anything about the relative power level of various sets.

I was actually intending to do this, fairly soon in fact. It shouldn't be too hard to whip something up, although you have surmised some of the problems we might see (Prosperity actually doesn't have THAT many cards in the high value only list - 9/25 means it still has 16 comparable cards...)

7904
None of sets 7, 8 or 4 particularly enthuse me, leaving 3, 5 and 6. And 3 I'm less enthusiastic about now, as it kinda just feels like a showcase of the pin being a trap. So it's between 5 and 6. And of those two, I think 5 just takes it. Both are great sets, both have vital cards the set builds around (Wharf/University vs. Goons) and both give diverging ways to build those engines up. But I feel set 5 is just a little less luck reliant, so it's getting my vote.

And now I have voted and seen the results, I'm a bit baffled by them. Sets 2 and 9 are winning... why? is there some interesting thing in set 2 that I missed and the two finalists missed during the game? And set 9?

7905
Hm. I still need to consider a few of the sets here, but I'm fairly sure my least favourites are 2 and 9, with 1 only close behind.

2 because so little of the set actually seems important. Duke is pretty irrelevant. Apprentice I'm trying to imagine encorporating, but can't really see it. Loan could be useful, but I doubt it'd help much more than a silver in most cases. It's clear that Silk Road and Crossroads are very valuable, along with Baron. So putting that all together, it feels like a very contracted board with too few interesting options.

9 seems like a group of power cards thrown together with some strong combos. It's probably a tough set to play optimally, but I think IW/G would be pretty close to it, and that's so boring and easy. A very delicate and cunning combo will probably beat it, but whether anyone could think of that in the space of a single game... I have my doubts.

1 is similar to 9 - IW/G is just that good. I like the attack-counter style of the other cards, which makes me like it more than 2 and 9, and a 2/5 here seems to open things up a lot more which probably biased my opinion. But overall it doesn't look all that interesting and the game that was actually played didn't seem all that exciting.

I'm leaning towards 3, 5 or 6 as my favourite currently, but need to think more about 7, 8 and 4.

7906
I'm guessing it's generally going to be 7. I was actually thinking about this a little earlier today. With 6 or less, you reshuffle after turn 1. That's not necessarily bad, but you're also likely to be reshuffling only a $2-4 card into your deck (the chance of hitting $5 is 1/21) before having two turns with that deck - assuming you get a Silver, your turns 2-3 are somewhere between a 6/2 (I believe a 1/6 chance), 5/3 (reasonably likely, can't be bothered to calculate it explicitly) or 4/4 (also likely, I think even moreso). Overall it means you're constantly shuffling a turn earlier but have a weaker deck each shuffle, which probably balances itself out. HOWEVER there's a good chance (I make it 5/42, or about 12%) you'll hit $2 on that first shuffle, which often just means you're permanently a turn behind. And I think that risk makes it slightly weaker.

Other values have a similar problem with shuffling, but start with even less buying power.
Could this be tested using Geronimoo's game-state simulator? Just setting one persons deck to 2-6 coppers and 3 estates, against 7 coppers 3 estates?

7907
Minor correction: You mention Inn's on-buy effect - that should be on gain.

Once again, I'm surprised how close to the consensus this list is to mine, and yet there are a few things that I notice. Merchant Ship seems really low. It's a pretty dull card, but it's effect is very nice - +$2 the next turn is huge, and generally will get you to the power $5-7 cards, or later on to the victory cards. It suffers every duration's downside, but I don't think that's enough to drop it as far as it is.

Highway's lack of presence so far is also a bit weird. I had it only two places above Market (with Treasury in between, in fact), and honestly, I think they're pretty much the same level of power - Market has that consistently nice +1 Buy which helps a bit, but often, while Highway cards with extra buys for it to be really useful. Most of the time, Highway is just a worse Market, and it only just gets ahead because it can make some megaturns occasionally.

7908
Dominion Articles / Re: Everyday I'm Shuffling
« on: January 26, 2012, 01:35:04 pm »
I think the point is, if you play say 2 Warehouses out of 3 in your deck, then you've probably sifted most of the bad cards out and are left with reasonably good cards in hand. Playing one more Warehouse, and not only are you drawing from that pile of bad cards, but there's no warehouses left for you to get through it more quickly.

7909
This is the first time my list actually seems pretty much on the money. Except for mandarin (which I have very little experience with and overrated compared to the average, at #32) my list is within 2 on every card, and all others within 4.

Then again, I'm a bit worried about where I've put Duke... I somehow don't think he's going to be anywhere near 36 anymore...

7910
Dominion General Discussion / Re: News on forthcoming expansions
« on: January 15, 2012, 01:58:35 pm »
Dark Ages is 500 cards but is not a standalone. So while you are only getting one expansion this year, it's a big one.

Woah. 500 cards is, like, 44 kingdom cards. Assuming there's >2 victory cards and there's nothing else special in there (well, with 3 victory cards there'd be 10 cards left over, easily room for some special thing). Of course those assumptions are probably wrong. I guess that a good number of the cards are going to be something new, or strange, so we'll probably have more like 40 kingdom cards.

Still, the new base cards sound interesting. I might have to consider picking some up.

7911
Puzzles and Challenges / Challenge: Dominion Rock-Paper-Scissors
« on: January 15, 2012, 01:53:09 pm »
(Note: This challenge will require use of simulators, but also a lot of non-simulator related thinking. I also don't know if this challenge has a solution, but I suspect it likely does)

The challenge is simple in concept: Construct a Dominion board with three 'optimal' strategies, such that strategy A will beat strategy B, strat B beats strat C and strat C beats strat A, and there isn't a strategy which beats all three.

Essentially the challenge is two parts: Firstly making the board so these strategies exist, and second making some simulator scripts which show the A>B>C>A strategies. Note that if two of the strategies are very close (e.g. C beats A 45.5-45) then it's not unlikely that A could just be optimised to beat C, and C might not be able to recover that loss, which would make A simply the dominant strategy.

I've done a little thinking about this, and have the following thoughts. None of them will probably be that mind-shattering, though.

To get the RPS effect, you're certainly going to need some kind of player interaction. Although I'm not sure what kind would work.
A good start might be using attacks and counter-type defences - e.g. a player buying Tunnels might not do well against the Council Room player, but would have a good shot against the militia opponent. Or using cards which turn specific opponent attacks into an advantage.
The main difficulty is probably going to be there NOT being an optimal strategy that beats all three. I reckon finding three strategies in a (rather strong) RPS effect might be a good start, though.

7912
As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.
Silk Road is generally better than Gardens...

Perhaps. Personally I have them right next to each other, and I doubt that'd change, but I'd have thought Gardens, being able to be powered by cards which can help gain more Gardens (treasure & actions) would make up for the fact that Silk Roads require less ammo to use, when that ammo for the most part will cost $4 or more too (there's Estates, Great Hall, Tunnel... any other's at $3 or less?) And building a deck with that many victory cards is going to require a good number of actions and treasures too, as hitting $4 or more consistently isn't too easy.

Of course, you're far more experienced than me and this isn't exactly a rigorous reason. But I'd like to know why you say that - I'd have thought Gardens is better on most boards.

7913
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: 3 Provinces, X Cards
« on: January 15, 2012, 01:06:24 pm »
Might be considered slightly cheating, but I believe this works for 3 cards:
TR ->KC -> Trade Route [In a game with Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony, Nobles, Harem, Gardens, Tunnel, Silk Road]

Obviously, this is just Biderman's solution but with a useless Throne Room at the start. Still, it works. Now, doing it without a useless card might be a littler trickier.


7914
This list is very interesting while looking at mine. I'd say I've overrated a lot of cards, but it's more accurate to say I underrated a good number. In particular, Horse Traders, Monument, Smithy and Envoy, which seem to be shoving everything else up a good 2-4 places. I was also baffled that I placed Mining Village at #10... I know why I did it (because total accuracy is hard, and I kinda just scanned down and found Bridge and probably went 'Mining Village or Bridge... eh, Bridge is often a trap so they're certainly about the same. Above Bridge' and that was it) but still... it's definitely a good 5-10 places too high.

As for Silk Road being where it was while Gardens is so much higher... WHY? Gardens is generally better, but by that much of an edge? I doubt it.

7915
Yeah, I can certainly see what you mean. Most of those times, the risk is offset by the potential to lose your treasures, unless you can build a deck which doesn't really care about that (Library/coin actions maybe?). But occasionally it's clearly overpowered. Other times, it's clearly a bad buy. It also currently has some rule/timing awkwardness attached (it reacts during other actions... how do you resolve them? Thief is a good example, just think about it). So I might change its condition to something more general (along the lines of 'In games using this, any player may do X to make every other player reveal their hand. If they have a Mysterious Gift in hand, do Y')

Also, a possible change to Mystic I may use: "Choose one: each other player gains a curse, placing it on his Mystic Mat. or each other player puts all of the curses from his Mystic Mat onto his discard pile." This obviously makes the card more powerful, but also makes for a potentially interesting negative Native Village style preparation. Maybe.

7916
Other Games / Re: 7 Wonders??
« on: January 13, 2012, 08:12:06 am »
I've played 7 Wonders a bit recently. In fact, it's one of my society's most played games currently (Dominion is still played, but less so).

I've found that, despite people saying it's a 'bit like dominion', it's really the opposite. It's very hard to play strategicially, almost everything in the game comes down to tactics. Okay, you can see your neighbours have lots of military and thus never buy military, and/or try to get the resources for the spies guild, but things like that are both rare AND about the limit of planning. Mostly it comes down to 'I have these 4 cards to choose from, which helps most now, which might help in the future?'

The thing I dislike most though is how military works. I recently had a 7 player game where I came 2nd, by 2 points. The winner was Rhodes, and was sitting next to me. I built two military cards, an age two and an age three mostly to beat (and keep up with) the person on my right. I lost to Rhodes comfortably (he had I think 11 at the end). I scored 5 in military. The person two seats to my right also built two military, an age two and an age three. He scored 15 in military. So he got 10 points more than me, just because he wasn't being squeezed by his neighbours like I was.

It's a solid game, but don't play it thinking it'll be dominion. It isn't.

7917
Card updates. I've done some more thinking and a little playtesting, and the following cards are updated:

Quote
Sect
Action - $1
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand
---
When you buy this card, gain a curse, +1 card. Skip this turn’s cleanup phase. Take another turn after this one.

This is actually quite different in a few ways, and this probably makes it a tad weaker, but nicer rules wise. Firstly, treasures and actions in play won't actually do anything (they don't re-produce money). So don't play your treasures! Also duration cards activate, and you lose excess buys/coin/action etc.

Quote
Ceremony
Action - $3
Look at the top two cards of your deck. Reveal one and put them both into your hand.
If you revealed an:
Action card: +1 actions, discard a card.
Treasure card: +1 buy
Victory card: +1 cards. Put one cards from your hand on top of your deck.
Curse card: Trash a card from your hand.

Having thought about rinkwork's advice, this is a very similar idea but a lot more interesting. Now it's benefits can depend on what you draw: It could be a cantrip sifter, draw+buy, or Courtyard, or if you get multi-type cards, some combination. This might even be too weak now, but at least you get some control over the benefit.

Quote
Community
Action - $3
+2 Actions
+1 coin for every two actions in play, including this.

Not a change, but it got a name. I'm happy with how this played. We ended up building a deck that used these to give like +$6 coin, but it took far too long. And if you use it early for just +2 actions, you aren't getting as much money as you could. It needs some proper playtesting (as in, where we don't go for near identical decks) but I'm pretty sure it's at exactly the right power level.

Quote
Wedding
Action - $4
Trash two cards. If you do, choose one: gain a Duchy, putting it on your deck OR gain a silver.

This card has had a strange development. It started as something like (shortened version) 'reveal 5 cards from your deck and any victory cards in hand. Trash any number of victory cards, gain a victory card giving [restriction on types that basically meant trash 3 estates, gain a Duchy]'. Then it changed to something very similar to the version I posted (I think it allowed the Gold to be top-decked and the Duchy wasn't, which was massively overpowered in many cases). Now it's this. I think this should work better.

Quote
Dowry
Action - $6
+2 Cards
+$2

Just a price increase. A sort of middle ground between rinkwork's thoughts and my own, it could still be adjusted later.

And new cards!

Quote
Mercenary
Action - Attack $5
+$1
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it is an action or treasure card costing $3 or more, they trash that card and may gain a card costing at most $1 less than it. If they do not trash the revealed card, they discard it or put it back, your choice.
Each other player discards down to 4 cards in hand and gains a copper.

The attack version of JoaT. It has a weak saboteur or spy effect, followed by a weak discard, followed by a weak junking. Together it makes a card that's not quite as dominant as JoaT but seemed pretty decent in general. It seemed to be about the right level of power.

Quote
Mysterious Gift
Treasure - $0
$1
---
When this card is trashed or revealed, reveal you hand and discard all the revealed treasure cards.
---
When you buy this card, +$3 and buy an action card.

I love my strange card costs, right? Actually, I was thinking of making Sect cost $2*, costing one less during your buy phase (but not less than 0). But I digress. It's a copper with a penalty. What an amazing idea. But of course it has a powerful benefit as well, letting you grab expensive actions when you otherwise couldn't afford them. Opening Cartographer/Mysterious Gift/Mercenary sure was fun, though. This card is probably at it's strongest in big turn engines, or heavy action engines, as the potential discard effect will hopefully cause little damage, and grabbing power actions early is a big plus. Turn 1 Forge anyone?

7918
Hm, I guess. Good as an opening, weaker after. Maybe I should try it sometimes.

7919
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Promo sales limitations!?
« on: January 12, 2012, 01:14:25 pm »
That's a good idea. Except... I can't really claim to be promoting the game. The tournament assumes you're already familiar with the game (it needs to, otherwise you have to allow slow play, which means you can't schedule games easily, and then people can get frustrated and too few games may be played to determine a winner). Still, I can give it a shot.

7920
So far, this list seems pretty similar to my own. The only surprises I've seen are Cutpurse not being here, I think I had that as about 3rd bottom... but then, despite owning Seaside, I still find I rarely actually buy Cutpuse. Maybe I'm underrating it too much. But I'm surprised a majority of people put it out of the bottom third.

7921
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Promo sales limitations!?
« on: January 11, 2012, 07:36:29 pm »
Hm, this limitation could suddenly be a problem. I'm running a tournament in a few weeks, and we were going to use promo cards as prizes... but if I can only get 1 of each that could end up being a problem. Especially if I decide I want to buy promo cards for myself.

7922
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Copper-scaled victory
« on: January 09, 2012, 01:26:11 pm »
Better yet, have the VP value scale quadratically (1 Copper = 1 VP, 4 Copper = 2 VP, 36 Copper = 6 VP, etc.)  :D

Though 36 Copper is pretty difficult to get to, but 16 Copper for 4 VP isn't so hard.

That's not scaling quadratically, it's scaling with the square root. But I actually think this could work, althogh it does lead to having to do not very easy calculation (you could always have a guide in the rules clarification book though, I guess, since there's only 8 possibilities in a 2-4p game (and one of those requires Ambassador to reach), and well good luck getting to 64+ coppers in a 5-6p game. There's also the problem of needing 2 coppers for them to give 3VPs each, and another 7 for them to give 4VPs... actually, yeah, that seems like it really wouldn't work.

7923
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by 'the effect'. Without having to reveal cards? Well, yeah. Without being able to choose it's type? That's the entire point of the card. The actual effect is just a thing that combos with it. I do need to test it, see exactly how good it is, see how often you can activate it etc.. That's one that hasn't been playtested yet, after all.

7924
Hm. I get what you're saying, I think like with things like cleanup most people would take to saying e.g. 'Playing illusionist as an action-treasure...', which implies it isn't an attack. You'd have to be pretty anal to ask every time.

For visible, it's a term defined seperately in the rules. Like pass, or gain. In your case, I'd also need to add 'about to be played' as you can play it during your buy phase. And to be honest, "when this is in play, about to be played, revealed, or at the end of the game you may choose what type this card has" is a bit long winded. I'd rather use my (what I personally feel is) intuitive shorthand. But we'll have to see.

7925
Thanks for the detailed comments, rinkwork. I'll certainly bear your comments in mind, especially regarding Statue, Merchants, Ceremony, Dowry and Sect.

Oh, and regarding Illusionist: The end of the game DOES count as it being visible (should mention that). So it can be whatever type you want it to be in the endgame. It might make it a bit too powerful with Silk Roads... but I'd have to see.

Sect: I like that idea. It's almost the same as the original card (you lose excess +actions and +buys, and duration cards activate) but it's much cleaner rules-wise, as you said. I might try it out.

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