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1126
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« on: October 13, 2021, 04:19:16 am »
I’m still leaning Swowl, although his contributions today have been quality.
Is this the quality contribution?

So EOD1 makes me feel like Jimm is a either a white knight situation or a partner, math is either a hard bus or a push, and Joth is somewhere in the middle.

"My conclusion is that all of these people are either town or scum"

What a revelation.

1127
General Discussion / Re: Brag Board
« on: October 13, 2021, 03:56:11 am »
I've taken the gender contiuum test. After the test itself, there was a part where you were given 18 traits and had to predict which 9 of them scored higher for women than men across their dataset.

I got 100% of them correct :-)
Me too  :D

The test also couldn't guess my gender, which I've now decided is brag-worthy.

1128
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« on: October 13, 2021, 02:55:44 am »
Well yeah that's a point. He did explain his change of reads.
With no reason that would justify such a strong turnaround. And why he would reread EFHW at Night anyways. Personally I think that should always be scrutinized; town doesn't usually bother to reread at Night because that effort is wasted if you're killed.

1129
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 3)
« on: October 13, 2021, 02:22:03 am »
I think it's pretty likely that Swowl didn't intend them as breadcrumbs.
I mean, he couldn't even answer your question:
Swowl, why didn't you give reasons for your changed EFHW read when asked?

He can't provide a town narrative for his actions, you can't provide a town narrative for his actions, I fail to see how there is any reason to not exile him.

1130
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« on: October 13, 2021, 12:27:44 am »
We have 4 days until deadline, I ask for half that time (2 days) to deep dive and get thoughts out based on this.
This time has passed now, can we finally do the exile please?

1131
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Anti-Necro Games II
« on: October 12, 2021, 11:04:43 am »
Eh, whatever. I'm going to win game 29!
That is a bold prediction, I am not sure the forum can support threads with 8.8 x 10^30 posts in them...

1132
I hope this qualifies:



Quote from: Strongroom
+$2
Discard any number of cards for +1 Coffers each.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it with Coffers.  For each Coffers you overpaid, +1 Card at the start of your next turn.

Rules clarification: Strongroom breaks the rule about having to spend your Coffers at the start of your Buy phase.  So for example if you have Merchant Guild(s) in play and bought cards before buying Strongroom, any Coffers gained from the previous buys can be used to overpay for Strongroom.  However, you cannot spend Coffers for anything other than overpaying (so for instance, if you only have $3 left, you cannot spend a Coffer to be able to afford Strongroom).

The idea here is to be able to convert Coffers into draw using the overpay ability.  The card itself is a terminal Silver that can be useful for hitting certain price points early in the game, since you are likely to collide it with your starting Estates.  Strongroom is a stop card, so you probably don't want to buy it too often or else you could clog up your engine.  Stocking up on Coffers to get the most use out of the overpay ability might be wise (or just spend those Coffers on buying good draw cards).  There are good synergies with other cards that give you +Coffers, and especially with Swashbuckler.
This doesn't really need overpay wording, and would be shorter if it just said "when you buy this, return any number of Coffers for +1 card each at the start of your next turn". It also has tracking issues, as there's nothing to remind you of the card draw, so it should either draw at the end of the turn you bought it, or gain Horses.

Finally, the on-play ability is too strong, being able to gain 4 Coffers per play. Imagine a Strongroom-only play:
T1/T2: Open Strongroom/Silve.
T3/T4: Buy another Strongroom, use Strongroom to gain 4 Coffers.
T5-T7: Use both Strongrooms to now have 12 Coffers.
From here on out, discard 4 if you have Strongroom in hand, otherwise buy Province. You should have 4 Provinces by turn 12-13.

1133
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Signups)
« on: October 12, 2021, 09:42:56 am »
If I was scum, would I do something like that, in a setup like this (I've never played this dice-rolled setup before)? Probably.
I think this is the crux of where your approach to this game fails. The question is not whether you would do something like that as scum, the question is whether e did.

1134
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Anti-Necro Games II
« on: October 12, 2021, 08:15:29 am »
It not the shortest necro that wins though.

1135
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Anti-Necro Games II
« on: October 12, 2021, 08:11:40 am »
The only tricky part is the the last post of a game is also the first post of the next one.

1136
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Signups)
« on: October 12, 2021, 03:53:10 am »
Long term thinking, bus Swowl (whichever one of them it is).  Yes, only 1 scum left, and need 2 misexiles.  But by being the one that drives the wagon, rather than jumping on at optimal bussing time, they are much less likely to be suspected.
Or maybe this is your long-term strategy to get two more misexiles :)

1137

Quote
Séance - $P+
Night/Duration

You may reveal a hand without Treasures. If you did, and you have exactly $0, +3 Cards at the start of your next turn.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it.

Unfortunately, the card generator does not seem to support Potions with the overpay symbol.

Clarification: "exactly $0" means that it won't trigger if you have unspent P.

1138
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion Card Image Generator
« on: October 12, 2021, 02:13:24 am »
Random complaint: The Potion symbol for cost doesn't mix well with the overpay +.

It's a very specific interaction of course.

1139
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« on: October 12, 2021, 12:36:02 am »
I'm here, just waiting until we exile Swowl.

1140
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Anti-Necro Games II
« on: October 11, 2021, 12:17:35 pm »
Looks like I'm winning  8)

1141
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Anti-Necro Games II
« on: October 11, 2021, 10:55:13 am »
Reigning champ checking in.
It is only now that you are the reigning champ.

1142
Forum Games / Re: M137: Dungeon Crawl Mafia (signups)
« on: October 11, 2021, 05:34:17 am »
/in

I should set aside some time to finish BSG: Season 3 some time... not today though.

I'd be happy to let that run first.

^
It's not ready though  :-[

1143
Forum Games / Re: M137: Dungeon Crawl Mafia (signups)
« on: October 10, 2021, 12:28:07 pm »
/in

I should set aside some time to finish BSG: Season 3 some time... not today though.

1144
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Signups)
« on: October 10, 2021, 12:25:23 pm »
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.
How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't? :(

Because I think you're scum!

No, maybe I missed it? What's your main concern? Was it the bussing?
Yes, it's here:
The flip that should have happened D1
You realize that iguana was on that wagon?
and then here:

Third vote is scum

Vote: math

I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.

Vote: Mathdude

But really... This is a perfect bus vote. Just made the "mistake" of staying on wagon too long. Except not, because math want exiled
He doubles down on that later though. It's not quite clear cut.

1145
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Signups)
« on: October 10, 2021, 09:52:39 am »
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.
How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't? :(

1146
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: October 09, 2021, 05:18:08 pm »
So you disagree with conflict theory how? Conflict theory just means that achieving good outcomes is done by winning against people who want the wrong thing.
Oh well this is going to take some time isn't it?

Quote
Mistake theorists treat politics as science, engineering, or medicine. The State is diseased. We’re all doctors, standing around arguing over the best diagnosis and cure. Some of us have good ideas, others have bad ideas that wouldn’t help, or that would cause too many side effects.

Conflict theorists treat politics as war. Different blocs with different interests are forever fighting to determine whether the State exists to enrich the Elites or to help the People.
I do not identify with either of these beliefs. I think it's silly to act as though there is an objective best way to run the government. I also don't think politics is war. There are systemic structures that work against people finding consensus, but ideally politics should be consensus-based. That also means giving everyone an equal say, which is not the case right now.

Quote
Mistake theorists view debate as essential. We all bring different forms of expertise to the table, and once we all understand the whole situation, we can use wisdom-of-crowds to converge on the treatment plan that best fits the need of our mutual patient, the State. Who wins on any particular issue is less important creating an environment where truth can generally prevail over the long term.

Conflict theorists view debate as having a minor clarifying role at best. You can “debate” with your boss over whether or not you get a raise, but only with the shared understanding that you’re naturally on opposite sides, and the “winner” will be based less on objective moral principles than on how much power each of you has. If your boss appeals too many times to objective moral principles, he’s probably offering you a crappy deal.
I mean clearly in the example of debating with a boss there is some issue of power differential, but that doesn't mean that debate has no use. I don't actually understand what the author thinks the "conflict theory" position is here anyway.

Quote
Mistake theorists treat different sides as symmetrical. There’s the side that wants to increase the interest rate, and the side that wants to decrease it. Both sides have about the same number of people. Both sides include some trustworthy experts and some loudmouth trolls. Both sides are equally motivated by trying to get a good economy. The only interesting difference is which one turns out (after all the statistics have been double-checked and all the relevant points have been debated) to be right about the matter at hand.

Conflict theorists treat the asymmetry of sides as their first and most important principle. The Elites are few in number, but have lots of money and influence. The People are many but poor – yet their spirit is indomitable and their hearts are true. The Elites’ strategy will always be to sow dissent and confusion; the People’s strategy must be to remain united. Politics is won or lost by how well each side plays its respective hand.
I don't even think there is a dichotomy here. Some conflicts are symmetrical and some aren't, and how they are analysed should probably take note of that. I do take issue with the idea that there is always a "right" answer.

Quote
Mistake theorists think you can save the world by increasing intelligence. You make technocrats smart enough to determine the best policy. You make politicians smart enough to choose the right technocrats and implement their advice effectively. And you make voters smart enough to recognize the smartest politicians and sweep them into office.

Conflict theorists think you can save the world by increasing passion. The rich and powerful win because they already work together effectively; the poor and powerless will win only once they unite and stand up for themselves. You want activists tirelessly informing everybody of the important causes that they need to fight for. You want community organizers forming labor unions or youth groups. You want protesters ready on short notice whenever the enemy tries to pull a fast one. And you want voters show up every time, and who know which candidates are really fighting for the people vs. just astroturfed shills.
The concept of intelligence is vague and ill-defined. And don't believe passion is inherently good or bad. I think the way to save the world is to increase compassion.

Quote
Mistake theorists think that free speech and open debate are vital, the most important things. Imagine if your doctor said you needed a medication from Pfizer – but later you learned that Pfizer owned the hospital, and fired doctors who prescribed other companies’ drugs, and that the local medical school refused to teach anything about non-Pfizer medications, and studies claiming Pfizer medications had side effects were ruthlessly suppressed. It would be a total farce, and you’d get out of that hospital as soon as possible into one that allowed all viewpoints.

Conflict theorists think of free speech and open debate about the same way a 1950s Bircher would treat avowed Soviet agents coming into neighborhoods and trying to convince people of the merits of Communism. Or the way the average infantryman would think of enemy planes dropping pamphlets saying “YOU CANNOT WIN, SURRENDER NOW”. Anybody who says it’s good to let the enemy walk in and promote enemy ideas is probably an enemy agent.
I think free speech and open debate are vital. I also think many of the people advocating for so-called "free speech" do not really want free speech, but rather immunity from criticism.

Quote
Mistake theorists think it’s silly to complain about George Soros, or the Koch brothers. The important thing is to evaluate the arguments; it doesn’t matter who developed them.

Conflict theorists think that stopping George Soros / the Koch brothers is the most important thing in the world. Also, they’re going to send me angry messages saying I’m totally unfair to equate righteous crusaders for the People like George Soros / the Koch brothers with evil selfish arch-Elites like the Koch brothers / George Soros.
Again, I do not believe worrying about individual people is all that helpful. So long as a hierarchy-enforcing system is in place, it will always produce new Koch brothers, so fighting against them personally is pretty much pointless.

Quote
Mistake theorists think racism is a cognitive bias. White racists have mistakenly inferred that black people are dumber or more criminal. Mistake theorists find narratives about racism useful because they’re a sort of ur-mistake that helps explain how people could make otherwise inexplicable mistakes, like electing Donald Trump or opposing [preferred policy].

Conflict theorists think racism is a conflict between races. White racists aren’t suffering from a cognitive bias, and they’re not mistaken about anything: they’re correct that white supremacy puts them on top, and hoping to stay there. Conflict theorists find narratives about racism useful because they help explain otherwise inexplicable alliances, like why working-class white people have allied with rich white capitalists.
Again, I don't believe either of these. I believe racism is first and foremost a systemic and institutional bias. People have racist ideas because they grow up in a racist society.

Quote
When mistake theorists criticize democracy, it’s because it gives too much power to the average person – who isn’t very smart, and who tends to do things like vote against carbon taxes because they don’t believe in global warming. They fantasize about a technocracy in which informed experts can pursue policy insulated from the vagaries of the electorate.

When conflict theorists criticize democracy, it’s because it doesn’t give enough power to the average person – special interests can buy elections, or convince representatives to betray campaign promises in exchange for cash. They fantasize about a Revolution in which their side rises up, destroys the power of the other side, and wins once and for all.
Here i do sympathize more with the side that is ascribed to "conflict theory".

1147
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: October 09, 2021, 04:52:01 pm »
Also, the article doesn't make any claim about marxism
Quote from: article
Also why, whenever existing governments are bad, Marxists immediately jump to the conclusion that they must be run by evil people who want them to be bad on purpose.

1148
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« on: October 09, 2021, 01:32:33 pm »
People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.

This seems wrong. Of course rereads can change reads, but wouldn't Town faust want scum to have to give some reads at this point? Why is faust only concerned with the reads of Townies?

Yeah, this runs me the wrong way. I would rather talk about perceptions and think they could generate an interesting data point. But since reads are non-binding, I think faust finds them irrelevant. Still, it is helpful to me to see where my town friends are standing.

One good reason to flip Swowl today is that it reveals something about faust. I told mix that I thought that is Swowl was red, faust was an MIC.
Scum's reads are fairly simple at this point; there are only so many non-IC town left and they have to exile them.

I'm not generally against these lists but I think that asking for them right away discouraged people from rereading and then forming their reads.

1149
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: October 09, 2021, 01:25:09 pm »
I think the central post to read to understand the  faust / me disagreement (which is just a classification, not an argument for either sided) is [conflict vs. mistake theory](https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/24/conflict-vs-mistake/) from now Astral Codex Tan. The observation is that most people have one of two world views, either...

(@faust, correct me if this doesn't describe you fairly)

- Conflict theory (faust): Many people are generally bad people, and making the world a better place is about beating the people who are pushing into the wrong thing
- Mistake theory (me): Almost all people (or at least, almost all people who matter) are generally good but make mistakes, and making the world a better place is about collectively fixing mistakes

As a mistake theorist (not categorically, but as a broad description of how the world works), the most difficult thing to cope with is how systems full of well-intentioned people produce bad results, like Elon and the billionaires he called to found OpenAI if that take is true, or the FDA, or the people who let Covid escape from a lab if the lab leak hypothesis is true, or many political systems
This doesn't describe me at all. I skimmed the linked article and as far as I can tell the author doesn't understand Marxism. It seems that this so-called "conflict theory" is little more than a convenient strawman. Maybe it describes far-right ideology better but I doubt it.

But I also don't ascribe to the view that any conflict can be resolved through civilised debate. The idea that people are rational actors in politics is fairly ridiculous to me. People are formed through their circumstances. The current capitalist system enforces hierarchy and self-indulgence, so people growing up under that system tend to think that their needs are more important than those of others, and that they are better than others. This is not because people are intrinsically bad, but because they grow up in a terrible system.

The people that are rewarded in capitalism are people who adhere to the system, and this is why people who expose the worst tendencies tend to rise to the top.

1150
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: October 08, 2021, 05:27:32 pm »
And surely if you pick and choose what you want to consider you can fit it to your simple model, but I'm not sure how sending a giant 2 to Jeffrey Bezos or accusing random strangers of pedophilia are done because he thinks they have the greatest positive impact for humanity. Or the Boring Company for that matter.

My simple model is that no person can be good and also own a billion dollars, and all observed data fits with it.

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