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51

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 17, 2023, 10:33:56 am »

Whereas of course "This turn, when you play an Action card, +$1" does not attribute the +$ to the card-play and so would not trigger Harbor Village.

So to try to understand your logic:
CardA: "This turn, when you play an Action card, it also gives you +$1."  ... The card-play of the Action card "gives" you +$1. The card-play of CardA does not.
CardB: "This turn, when you play an Action card, +$1" ... The card-play of the Action card does not "give" you +$1. Neither does the card-play of CardB. So no card "gives" you +$1?

No, I'm pretty sure we know this one: CardB gives you the $1. The existing Priest/Chameleon interaction seems to clarify this; Priest is worded similarly to CardB and Priest/Chameleon causes you to draw 2 cards if you trash later in the turn, meaning that it's Priest that would be giving you the $2 for trashing.

52

Rules Questions / Re: Frigate discarding

« on: January 13, 2023, 08:41:09 am »

It's just, if it's your next turn, that means Frigate is no longer doing anything.

That still means it can't be discarded at the usual time in Cleanup before, as you then may not know what kind of turn by what player will happen next. Island Folk makes that possible, effects like Lich can "eat" a turn. I think it would be counterproductive to try any kind of prediction at discard-during-cleanup time what will happen, even if Island Folk didn't exist.

Sure, by all means. Just like Outpost, I suppose.

53

Rules Questions / Re: Frigate discarding

« on: January 13, 2023, 01:55:37 am »

That's like saying the Bridge has an effect on the turn after I play it: the cost reduction ends. Frigate's Attack effect ending doesn't constitute Frigate doing something on your next turn—that specifically constitutes Frigate not having an effect.

Well no, there’s a difference in timing between “at the end of this turn” and “at the start of next turn”. But I do think you’re right that this is the first card to rely solely on “until your next turn” as a form of “having something to do”.

True, but the end of Frigate's effect doesn't have "at the start of your next turn" timing. If it did, you'd be able to choose the order of it with respect to other "at the start of your next turn" effects. You can't, for example, remodel a card with Enlarge and then end Frigate's effect. It's just, if it's your next turn, that means Frigate is no longer doing anything.

54

Rules Questions / Re: Frigate discarding

« on: January 12, 2023, 09:31:59 pm »

That's like saying the Bridge has an effect on the turn after I play it: the cost reduction ends. Frigate's Attack effect ending doesn't constitute Frigate doing something on your next turn—that specifically constitutes Frigate not having an effect.

55

Rules Questions / Frigate discarding

« on: January 11, 2023, 09:01:32 pm »

This isn't really a rules question, more like a rules observation: Frigate joins Outpost as a card that is not usually actually discarded from play during Cleanup of the last turn on which it does something. If you play Frigate, it has no effect at all on your next turn; the last turn where it does anything is your right-hand opponent's turn. But it stays in play through your turn anyway.

...Right?

56

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 11, 2023, 11:00:59 am »

To me, the simplest technical rules wording is a new term that Harbor Village introduced: "Give". (Though it uses the past tense).

"Give": Playing a card Gives you any resources that the card's instructions tell you take, as well as any resources that a Way's instructions tell you to take if a Way is used to play the card.

(The "as well as" here can't quite be right, since the card gives you one or the other, not both. And, you know, Steward's instructions tell you to take  +$2, and they tell you to take +2 cards, but obviously it doesn't give you both of those at the same time (outside Elder scenarios).)

(So, "resources that you get as a result of following either the card's instructions or a Way used to play the card" would be closer to what you're getting at here, I think. I don't remember whether Enchantress effects need to be included here too.)

57

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 11, 2023, 10:52:42 am »

To me, the simplest technical rules wording is a new term that Harbor Village introduced: "Give". (Though it uses the past tense).

"Give": Playing a card Gives you any resources that the card's instructions tell you take, as well as any resources that a Way's instructions tell you to take if a Way is used to play the card.

(The "as well as" here can't quite be right, since the card gives you one or the other, not both. And, you know, Steward's instructions tell you to take  +$2, and they tell you to take +2 cards, but obviously it doesn't give you both of those at the same time (outside Elder scenarios).)

58

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 11, 2023, 03:16:33 am »

What the Elder FAQ in the rulebook says is, "Elder doesn't affect all choices, just ones that say 'choose' and have a list of options." So since the choice between playing a card normally or using a Way doesn't involve anything being worded in this way, Elder doesn't apply to it. That's all I meant. The reason it doesn't work on Barge really isn't because the choice is a choice of timing, but because the list of options isn't stated with the word "choose".

59

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 10, 2023, 10:48:51 am »

Elder responds specifically to the instruction to "choose one", not to any time you make a choice. For instance, Barge certainly makes you choose one of two effects, but since it doesn't say "choose one", Elder doesn't let you do both.

60

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 09, 2023, 10:20:38 am »

Oooh, I've just thought of another fun Moat v Ways effect. You play an Attack, I Moat it, you then decide to use Way of the Mouse; the Mouse card is Duchess. Do I get to do the deck-inspection thing?

I think yes, for the same as the chained-Cultist reasoning where Moating the first Cultist doesn't protect you against the second Cultist. If you play an Attack as Way of the Mouse in this scenario, Duchess is in a position comparable to that of the second Cultist: a separate card that the first Attack causes you to play.

61

Rules Questions / Re: Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat

« on: January 05, 2023, 06:44:30 pm »

No-one asked if Moat could stop the +$1 token because why would you ask that?

But people should have asked if Moat could stop a Militia that was played using Way of the Chameleon, because it's essentially the same question; I think we just all missed it back then. Because while it seems intuitive and obvious, and people would for sure complain if Chameleon got around the Moat, the technical rules for how Ways and Moat work do in fact make it not so clear how Moat manages to do that, beyond just "it does because it does".

I kind of disagree with this—I don't think anyone should have ever asked if Way of the Chameleon can circumvent Moat. It's obvious that it can't. Your last question is the right one—how or why does Chameleon fail to circumvent Moat.

(And the answer, as always, is that using a Way means that the Way ability is what playing the card does.)

62

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: January 05, 2023, 05:44:58 pm »

Reckless doesn't allow you to use a Way for the repetition of a card, fortunately.

Shuffle.it has been allowing this, though! I assume that's a bug?

63

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: January 05, 2023, 05:37:31 pm »

Scepter (which was Fawning) plus First Mate meant I was playing more Action cards and getting more draw in my Buy phase than in my Action phase:

A starts their turn.
A discards a Duchy and a Province.
  A draws a Scepter and a Grotto. (Grotto)
A discards a Copper and a Province.
  A draws a Scepter and a First Mate. (Grotto)
A plays a First Mate.
  A plays a First Mate.
    A plays a Grotto.
      A gets +1 Action.
      A sets a Silver aside with Grotto.
   A draws a Smugglers and a Magpie.
A plays a Magpie.
  A draws a First Mate.
  A gets +1 Action.
  A reveals a Magpie.
  A puts a Magpie back onto their deck.
A plays a First Mate.
  A plays a Smugglers.
    A gains a Duchy.
  A draws a Magpie and a Barbarian.
A plays a Scepter.
  A plays a First Mate again.
    A plays a Barbarian.
      A gets +$2.
      s trashes a Gold.
      s gains a Silver.
    A draws a Province and a Grotto.
A plays a Scepter.
  A plays a First Mate again.
    A plays a Grotto.
      A gets +1 Action.
      A sets a Province aside with Grotto.
  A draws a Forager, a Guildmaster, and a First Mate.
A plays a Scepter.
  A plays a First Mate again.
    A plays a First Mate.
      A plays a Guildmaster.
        A gets +$3.
      A draws a First Mate.
      A shuffles their deck.
      A draws a Copper and a Province.
    A plays a First Mate.
      A plays a Forager.
        A gets +1 Action.
        A gets +1 Buy.
        A trashes a Copper.
        A gets +$3.
      A draws a Province, a Forager, and a Scepter.
A plays a Scepter.
  A plays a Guildmaster again.
  A gets +$3.
A plays a Scepter.
  A plays a First Mate again.
    A plays a Forager.
      A gets +1 Action.
      A gets +1 Buy.
      A trashes a Magpie.
      A gets +$3.
    A draws 2 Duchies.
A buys and gains a First Mate.
  A gets +2 Favors. (Guildmaster)
A buys and gains a Province.
  A gets +2 Favors. (Guildmaster)
  A gains a Scepter.
    A gets +2 Favors. (Guildmaster)

64

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss- Silver mine

« on: January 05, 2023, 11:32:08 am »

They can't all be the best $5 card ever.

65

Rules Questions / Re: Reckless + Split Piles

« on: January 04, 2023, 07:55:53 pm »

Ooh, Alchemist's ability bypasses Reckless, making that a crazy strong card.

Unless you miss your Potion!

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies

« on: December 25, 2022, 04:17:32 pm »

I'm not sure if this counts as an anti-synergy exactly, but Search/Keep makes endgame unpredictable. If you're going to buy the last Province, you better make sure you already have a pretty big lead! Each Search in play when the Province pile is emptied may or may not mean a 5VP swing in favor of its owner!

67

Rules Questions / Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play

« on: December 25, 2022, 11:23:05 am »

Wait, doesn't "anything playing a card that isn't in play or isn't moving it into play" include Throne Rooms in the Throne–Caravan–Way of the Horse situation? The second time the Caravan gets played by that Throne Room, it's not in play and not moving into play. Does that mean the Throne Room in that scenario stays in play as long as the Caravan would? I think that contradicts previous rulings.

68

Rules Questions / Re: Taskmaster post-gain

« on: December 25, 2022, 12:39:00 am »

There’s a rules clarification on the wiki that if gaining a $5 causes you to play Taskmaster (like with Haggler and Rush), then it will count. I assume based on that that the answer is no (because otherwise you wouldn’t need the example of a gain causing you to play it). The wording refers only to “if you gain”; which is not including past tense.

Yeah, seeing that rules clarification appear on the wiki is what made me ask the question. I agree that the line on the wiki seems to presuppose that the answer is no, but since that hasn't actually been explicitly clarified yet I figured I should actually ask.

69

Rules Questions / Taskmaster post-gain

« on: December 24, 2022, 10:15:02 pm »

If you gain a $5 card before you play a Taskmaster, does the Taskmaster stay in play? Or is its ability only triggered by gains after it's been activated?

70

Rules Questions / Re: Replaying Durations that aren't in play

« on: December 24, 2022, 10:13:37 pm »

I believe the rule is that Throne Room variants stay in play as long as the card they play actually remains in play, whereas Misfits variants stay in play as long as the card they play would have remained in play. Since Flagship is a Throne variant (i.e., it causes a card to be replayed), it should be subject to the Throne rules, and since the card it played was Caravan and the Caravan isn't in play, it shouldn't stay in play. That's my reading of the rules, anyway.

71

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: December 24, 2022, 08:08:33 pm »

Reckless Underling was the only village on the board; fortunately the Ally was Crafter's Guild, so the Favors from playing the Underlings could be used to gain the Underlings back after they'd returned to the supply.

72

Dominion General Discussion / Words in card names

« on: December 19, 2022, 10:19:09 pm »

This business again, updated for Plunder!

A few words debut right at 2 this year—that is, they have two appearances in Plunder after not appearing at all in any previous cards or card-shaped things: bury, figure, jewel, and of course loot. Ship, master, mine, and village all go up by 2 as well; and silver appears on the list for the first time, as Silver Mine is the first card with silver in its name since Silver itself.


24:
way (25 if you count "stowaway")

17:
village (18 if you count "villa")

12:
gift

8:
castle
hunt
treasure

7:
market
merchant

6:
city
guild
man
ship
trade
witch
work

5:
dame
keep
master
mine
sea
sir
town

4:
black
camp
curse
fair
goat
gold
haunt
house
mountain
road
royal
sheep
smith
war
wood

3:
art (if you count "artificer" and "artisan")
bandit
capital
court
cut
duke (if you count "duchy" and "duchess")
farm
flag
fort (if you count "fortress")
fortune
ghost
ground
guard
herd
horse
king
land
lose
make
map
mason
misery (4 if you count "miser")
nomad
old (if you count "elder")
party
port
rat
room
ruin
secret
shop
swamp
zombie

2:
apprentice
astro
ball (not really, they're two different words)
bank
band
battle
border
bridge
bury
cache
camel
caravan
cave
chart
chest
coin
copper
count (also two different words)
cult
delude
den
distant
dog
dwell
earth
envy
estate
explore
field
figure
fish
folk
fool
forest
gate
grand
guide
hag
hall
haven
herb
hero
high
horn
inherit
inn
invent
invest
iron
island
jewel
journey
league
library
lodge
loot
lord
mill
mirror
monkey
necro
noble
order
pass
pick
pilgrim
pirate
place
plan
pool
post
prince
quarter
raid
scout
seal (not really; notwithstanding the pun, they're different words)
search
shrine
silk
silver
sorcery
spice
spy
stone
tax
tell
tower
train
triumph
wall
watch
wind
wish
wolf
yard

function words
36: the
35: of
3: out
2: over

73

Rules Questions / Re: Harbor Village and Ways

« on: December 19, 2022, 03:54:07 pm »

Oh hey, how does Harbor Village interact with the –$1 Adventures token?

74

Rules Questions / Re: Harbor Village and Ways

« on: December 19, 2022, 03:53:17 pm »

The Menagerie rules say, exact quote: "Enchantress from Empires also changes what an Action card does when played." "Also", in this context, means in addition to Ways—so this sentence presupposes that what Ways do is, in fact, changing what an Action card does when played.

And yet, neither Enchantress nor Ways entail shape-shifting, for the reason you state. So, "changing what a card does when played" isn't shape-shifting. The instructions on the card don't change; just what the card does when played changes. Ordinarily when you play a card, what the card does is what is detailed in its instructions; when you use a Way or are under the influence of Enchantress what the card does is something else.

I take that as short-hand for "makes you change what instructions you follow when you play the card", which we know is exactly what happens with both Enchantress and Ways. As I'm sure you know, the rules in the rulebooks use shorthand that is understandable for casual players and also usually accurate in the majority of situations, but not always technically accurate in all situations.

If what literally happens is that Ways change what a card does, what does that mean? How is "what a card does" different from the card's instructions? How are "the card's instructions" defined if not "what the card does when played"? This is what I asked a couple of posts up.

Yes, I agree, "changes what a card does" does mean "makes you change what instructions you follow when you play the card". So, to answer your question, how is "what a card does" different from the card's instructions?, well, as a first draft here, "what a card does" is the instructions you follow when you play the card, which may or may not be the instructions actually printed on the card (i.e., the card's instructions).

Or actually, let me revise that a bit: what the card does isn't quite the instructions you follow when you play the card, but perhaps it's actually the sequence of game moves players take as a result of following instructions upon playing a card. For instance, Steward's instructions are:

Choose one: +2 Cards; or +$2; or trash 2 cards from your hand.

And if I play a Steward and choose +$2, what Steward did was (1) caused me to make a choice and (2) gave me $2.

If I play Harbor Village and then Steward, choosing +$2, I get +$1 from Harbor Village because giving me coin is something the Steward did. If I play Harbor Village and then Steward, choosing +Cards, I get no coin from Harbor Village because Steward didn't give me any coin (even though +$2 is apparently part of Steward's instructions). And if I play Harbor Village and then Smithy, choosing to play Smithy according to the Way of the Sheep, Harbor Village gives me +$1 because giving me coin is something the Smithy did.

75

Rules Questions / Re: Harbor Village and Ways

« on: December 19, 2022, 02:56:33 pm »

This is because Reckless"s text is specifically about following a card's instructions. If you're using a Way, you're not following the card's instructions at all (modulo Chameleon), so the Trait's instruction to follow them twice doesn't kick in. Harbor Village's text isn't about whether a card's instructions gave you +$; it's about whether the card did. When you play a card according to a Way, the card is what's giving you that effect, even though the card's instructions are not being followed.

But it seems a bit arbitrary about when a card is giving you something or not. If a card can give you something outside of just its own instructions giving it to you, then what about Adventures tokens? If you have the + token on a card, does Harbor Village count that? The token gave you the money, not the card (technically I think the effect that put that token on the pile did). But playing the card resulted in you getting money. Taking that even further, playing Throne Room and choosing Market gives you money too, but we don't say the card Throne Room gave you .

I agree that it's arbitrary, but it's consistent with the rules text, the text on the card-shaped things, and the rulings about interactions that Donald X. has made. (For instance, the Adventures rules booklet frames the effects of Adventures tokens as something that happens in addition to what the card does, whereas the Menagerie rules booklet frames the effects of Ways as changing what the card does.)

The rules specifically say the opposite, that the Ways do not change what the card does. If it did, then it would be "shape-shifting", and replaying it with Royal Carriage would force you to use the Way again.

The Menagerie rules say, exact quote: "Enchantress from Empires also changes what an Action card does when played." "Also", in this context, means in addition to Ways—so this sentence presupposes that what Ways do is, in fact, changing what an Action card does when played.

And yet, neither Enchantress nor Ways entail shape-shifting, for the reason you state. So, "changing what a card does when played" isn't shape-shifting. The instructions on the card don't change; just what the card does when played changes. Ordinarily when you play a card, what the card does is what is detailed in its instructions; when you use a Way or are under the influence of Enchantress what the card does is something else.