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26
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Citadel errata?
« on: June 20, 2021, 10:57:12 am »
Thanks!

(...Huh, I wonder how I missed that post from Donald X.; the Rules forum wasn't highlighted for me as having unread posts.)

27
Dominion General Discussion / Citadel errata?
« on: June 20, 2021, 03:42:43 am »
On the wiki, someone wrote:

Quote
Citadel is getting errata to "The first time you play an Action card during each of your turns, play it twice instead," because the current wording isn't actually playing the card twice. In other words, the current Citadel is less like Throne Room and more like Royal Carriage, and it is getting errata to be the former.

Can someone explain the difference in meaning between the two wordings ("play it twice instead" vs. "play it again afterward")? How is acting like Throne Room different from acting like Royal Carriage?

28
My opponent bought Dame Natalie, then put the Ferry token on Knights and then just started snarfing up additional Knights every time they played Natalie.

I still won the game, though

29
Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: June 14, 2021, 01:31:48 pm »
Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?
I think I'd rule that the Barge loses track of itself as soon as you Bonfire it.

Sure, but the current version of the lose-track rule, i.e. the stop-moving rule, just stops something from moving. The stop-moving rule can't cause something to move at a specific time (i.e., being discarded at the end of this turn.

30
Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: June 14, 2021, 12:58:05 pm »
Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?

31
Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: June 14, 2021, 10:59:58 am »
Also, calling them emulators is misleading. Old BoM/Overlord could be called that. But the new versions, along with Necromancer, Captain, Way of the Mouse and Inherited Estates, are not emulating, they are merely playing a card.

Granted, but at least "emulator" is an informal term that already exists and has an article on the wiki and everything, so I didn't have to make up a new term.

Quote
To answer the question, it might help to look at how abilities track cards in Dominion. A card is tracked only if referred to as a card.

I'm not sure what you mean by "only if referred to as a card". The instructions on Way of the Mouse ("play the set-aside card") and the rules for emulators ("as long as you would have left the card it plays") both refer to the emulated card as a "card". The instructions on Throne Room also refer to a "card", of course. But your discussion seems to imply you're considering these as examples of cards not being "referred to as a card".

Quote
A played ability is not tied to its card. Old example: Throne Room + Mining Village. The play ability on MV moves the MV to trash on first play. Then you play the MV again. The play ability on MV doesn't remember that it was moved to trash; otherwise it would move the MV from trash to play. Even though it was the same printed ability that moved it to trash, it's "loaded" as a completely new ability once it's played again.

I don't understand how this is relevant; this is just because of the stop-moving rule. The play ability on MV isn't what would (but doesn't) move the MV from trash to play; it's the play ability on Throne Room that would do that.

Quote
Each time a Pawn (via Mouse) plays the Cargo Ship, the Cargo Ship's play ability is "loaded" as a new ability. However, since it's a Duration, the rules (for determining which cards are discarded in Clean-up) tie this ability to the card: If, when we get to Clean-up, the ability has set something up for later, we leave the card in play. But in this case the card we're leaving in play is the "play but leave it there" card (the Mouse'd Pawn): We're following the rule "leave [the Pawn] in play as long as you would have left [the Cargo Ship] in play". Since we have played two Pawns, each playing Cargo Ship with a separate play ability, each of them is evalueted separately in Clean-up: Did we set something up for later, thereby causing the Cargo Ship to "would be" left in play? The answer is yes for one Pawn, no for the other.

Everybody agrees this is the right behavior, but it seems like you're just stating the behavior; I don't think you've got a justification for how we know it's right based on the rules.

32
Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: June 13, 2021, 11:06:17 pm »
Isn't it true now that Throne Room stays in play even if it plays a Duration that stays in play only once? E.g. from http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room: "Even if only one play of the Duration card is keeping it in play, such as using Throne Room on Gear and only setting aside cards one of the times, Throne Room stays in play with it." (The same would apply presumably if you Throne Roomed Gear, set aside cards on it the first time and played it as a Way the second time.)

Yes, that's true; but playing a Throne Room on a non-Duration card and then playing the non-Duration card as a Duration card (via Command or via Way of the Mouse) isn't technically playing Throne Room on a Duration card, so the Throne doesn't stay in play.

Quote
I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?

Oh... huh. The rule is, "When you play [an emulator], leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play." There are two different ways of interpreting this:

(1) These Pawns are emulating a Cargo Ship—specifically, they are emulating the copy of Cargo Ship that's set aside with Way of the Mouse. They're emulating the same individual card. However long that Cargo Ship would stay in play, both Pawns should stay in play that long. Since that Cargo Ship is doing something next turn, it would stay in play till then, and so both Pawns stay in play till then.
(2) Each Pawn is playing a Cargo Ship. You should leave each one in play as long as it would if it were a copy of Cargo Ship, instead of some other card playing a Cargo Ship. If the first Pawn were an actual Cargo Ship it would stay in play till next turn, but if the second Pawn were a Cargo Ship it would be discarded this turn. Therefore you discard one Pawn this turn and one Pawn next turn.

I bet that (2) is how Donald X. intended the rule to work, but I think the actual statement of the rule is ambiguous.

33
Rules Questions / Re: Someone else's Inheritance
« on: June 12, 2021, 11:37:44 am »
If they haven't Inherited anything, they still play their Estate, it just has no effect when played.

The only effect would be that they played one more Action card, which I don't think could ever matter for Conspirator, but it could matter with Champion if they ended up playing Diadem later in your turn. Another extreme corner case.

They could end up playing Conspirator this turn just as well as ending up playing Diadem this turn couldn’t they?

I think what Jeebus means is there's no way for playing a do-nothing Action Estate to make the difference between Conspirator being the second and third card played. (Conspirator is already the third Action just by virtue of playing Caravan Guard as Mouse, playing Vassal, finding Conspirator.) So whether or not the Estate is an Action doesn't matter for Conspirator.

34
Rules Questions / Someone else's Inheritance
« on: June 11, 2021, 03:31:51 am »
Okay okay so. I buy Inheritance. On my turn, Estates are Actions.

So on my turn, I play an Attack; my opponent plays Caravan Guard, but for whatever reason they play it according to Way of the Mouse as Vassal and hit Estate. The Estate is an Action, since it's my turn; what happens when they play it?

(a) they play the card with my Estate token on it.
(b) they play the card with their Estate token on it, if any.
(c) nothing happens (even if they've bought Inheritance).

I really can't figure this one out.

35
Rules Questions / Re: Throne/Duration redux
« on: June 02, 2021, 12:31:10 pm »
Thank you!

36
Rules Questions / Throne/Duration redux
« on: June 02, 2021, 10:27:00 am »
We keep saying "if you use Throne Room on a Duration card, the Throne Room stays in play as long as the Duration does."

Does that literally mean "as long" as the Duration does, or is "until Cleanup" implied? That is, if you Throne Room –> Haven / Way of the Horse, Haven leaves play immediately. Does Throne Room therefore also get discarded immediately, in the middle of your Action phase, or does it stick around till the Cleanup phase the way it would if you just Throned a Horse?

37
Rules Questions / Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« on: May 30, 2021, 03:30:00 am »
The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?

Yeah I can't see any possible reason that you can't still use the reaction and at least discard Sleigh. By the rules, when you discard a Sleigh after gaining a Sleigh, it is impossible to know if the Sleigh you discarded was the same one or not. So it must be the first one; you can discard it but it will fail to go onto your deck. This makes sense with stop-moving; the effect is expecting the card to be wherever it was gained to, but it has moved from there so the effect cannot move it.

By contrast, if you gain a Watchtower to hand, then you definitely should be able to reveal that same Watchtower to topdeck or trash it, because Watchtower's reaction doesn't require you to move it.

I think these are both correct--I just tested online and do see both of these behaviors.

Also, the online version does something else (may be a bug, but I think it makes sense according to the stop-moving rule)--I also tested using Sculptor to gain a Sleigh when I already had a Sleigh in hand. It didn't let me discard one Sleigh to topdeck the other Sleigh. It just discarded one Sleigh, and the other Sleigh stayed in my hand. I think this may be the stop-moving rule again--it's expecting to find the gained Sleigh in the discard pile and then topdeck that one, but because the Sleigh goes to hand when using Sculptor, the Sleigh you discard doesn't find the other Sleigh in the expected place.

No, that seems to be a bug—the fact that the Sleigh is gained directly to hand shouldn't invoke the stop-moving rule; when something is gained to a nonstandard location (via the No Visiting rule), effects that move the gained card should still be able to find it. Maybe what you did was try to discard the gained Sleigh to top-deck the other Sleigh (shouldn't work), instead of discarding the original Sleigh to top-deck the gained Sleigh (should work)?

38
Rules Questions / Sleigh gained to hand
« on: May 29, 2021, 11:20:51 am »
The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?

39
Rules Questions / Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: May 14, 2021, 04:46:45 am »
I'm not sure if this has come up before. Let us suppose Way of the Mouse has Fishing Village. Here goes.

We know this:

Throne Room -> Necropolis. Both cards discarded at Cleanup this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf. Wharf does something next turn, stays in play. Throne played a Duration, stays in play till Wharf leaves play.

Overlord -> Wharf. Wharf doesn't enter play. Wharf does something next turn, would stay in play if it were in play. Overlord played a Duration, stays in play until Wharf would have been discarded.

Throne Room -> Overlord -> Wharf. Overlord played a Duration, stays in play until Wharf would have been discarded next turn. Throne Room didn't play a Duration, discarded from play this turn.

Wharf / Way of the Otter. Not scheduled to do anything next turn, Wharf discarded from play this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Otter. Throne played a Duration, is discarded from play when the Duration is. Wharf is discarded from play this turn; so is Throne Room.

Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration, remains in play until Duration would have left play next turn.

Okay, so here's the question:

Throne Room -> Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration card which acts next turn; Necropolis stays in play. Throne did not play a Duration card, is discarded this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Wharf played a Duration card which acts next turn; Wharf stays in play. Throne did play a Duration card (Wharf), stays in play until Wharf is discarded, next turn.

...Right?

In other words, Throne on a Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse behaves differently than Throne on a non-Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse.

40
Dominion General Discussion / Card types and Hinterlands
« on: May 12, 2021, 12:58:06 am »
To my surprise, this sentence I wrote in 2013 appears to still be true:

Quote
Hinterlands... is the only expansion to contain more than one Treasure, more than one Reaction, and more than one Victory card among its Kingdom cards.

To wit:

Base: 0 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 1 Victory
Intrigue: 1 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 4 Victory
Seaside: 0 Treasure, 0 Reaction, 1 Victory
Alchemy: 1 Treasure, 0 Reaction, 1 Victory
Prosperity: 8 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 0 Victory
Cornucopia: 1 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 1 Victory
Hinterlands: 3 Treasure, 3 Reaction, 3 Victory
Dark Ages: 1 Treasure, 2 Reaction, 2 Victory
Guilds: 1 Treasure, 0 Reaction, 0 Victory
Adventures: 3 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 1 Victory
Empires: 7 Treasure, 0 Reaction, 8 Victory (counting the Castles separately)
Nocturne: 1 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 1 Victory
Renaissance: 3 Treasure, 1 Reaction, 0 Victory
Menagerie: 2 Treasure, 5 Reaction, 0 Victory

...and even if we include non-Kingdom cards I think Dark Ages is the only other one to have more than one of each.

41
Dominion Strategy Wiki Feedback / Wiki update project
« on: April 22, 2021, 02:31:58 am »
The folks at the Dominion Discord have undertaken a major project to revamp the Dominion Strategy Wiki. A lot of this is really beneficial—providing updated strategy outlines for cards which don't have strategy advice already in the wiki, or about which the existing strategy advice is out of date because our thinking about strategy has evolved; adding new articles for strategic concepts that didn't have in-depth articles before; etc. Other changes planned may be more controversial, such as deleting the existing articles for combos and synergies of specific cards.  Once a page has been updated, it's semi-protected so new accounts can't edit it, with the note "this page has been edited to the satisfaction of the dominion discord. please come engage with us before editing this page!"

I have mixed feelings about this project, personally (and I'm not involved in it, not being a Discord user); but I certainly think the Dominion Strategy Forum should at least be notified about the ongoing renovation of the Dominion Strategy Wiki.

42
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles
« on: April 19, 2021, 02:49:34 am »
How do you gain a Fortune during your Cleanup phase?

43
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: New Dawn (a fan expansion)
« on: April 18, 2021, 04:11:00 pm »
You could say Dawn is part of your Action phase (but you're allowed to do different things in it), in the same way "play treasures" and "buy things" are both part of your Buy phase even though you do different things in those subphases.

44
Rules Questions / Duration draw with no draw
« on: April 15, 2021, 11:39:56 am »
Okay so we all know that if you have only five cards in your entire deck, and one of them is a Caravan, then when you play the Caravan it stays in play till the next turn even though there won't be any cards in your deck to draw when your next turn comes around. And I know the intuitive reason for that—anything can happen, maybe by the time you get to your next turn you'll have gained more cards and have something to draw. But I can't figure out how this is compatible with the rules as stated: if the card can't do anything on the next turn, it's not supposed to stay in play. We could say "trying to give you +Cards (and not finding any)" still counts as the card doing something, but then why isn't "trying to give you the set-aside cards (and not finding any)" enough to keep a Gear in play with nothing set aside?

Maybe I'm overthinking this.

45
Captain/Ranger! End your turn with a Captain playing Ranger for +0 cards to begin your next turn with Captain playing Ranger for +5 cards.

46
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: A Dominion Best-of Fancards
« on: March 28, 2021, 03:35:47 pm »
Is Lunar Ritual basically a more expensive version of Toil? I guess if you have more than 2 Actions you want to play you'd rather have Lunar Ritual, but.

47
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Actually Passable Card Ideas
« on: January 31, 2021, 03:34:25 am »
Way Of The Beaver
+$2
+1 Buy

Appearing alongside Monkey or Sheep is the only real problem with it.

That's not really a problem, as it's not recommended to have several Ways in one game. ;)

However, Beaver's effect is identical to playing Woodcutter, which while weak for a $3 card is rather too strong for a Way. Most of the Ways which have an effect that's independent of the card on which they are used would be too weak as a $2 kingdom card. (Mouse and Worm are the only real exceptions to this rule IMO.)
And I think that's a sensible design decision, so that you don't buy a random $2 kingdom card solely to use it as the Way.

I think Way of the Horse is an obvious exception here—the existence of Ride suggests Horse is not too weak for a $2 kingdom card. (And I've definitely bought Poor Houses just so I could use them according to the Way of the Horse.)

And Worm is definitely too weak for a $2 kingdom card. Way of the Worm is to Monument roughly as Ruined Market is to Woodcutter.

48
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Boon Power Level Comparison
« on: January 31, 2021, 03:27:36 am »
none of the Boon-givers are cantrips, what's up with that?
hmmm...

Pixie is a cantrip though????

I mean I realize this isn't a counterexample to the argument against cantrips as Boon-givers, since you have to trash the Pixie to get the Boons, but it's just not factually  true that none of the Boon-givers are cantrips.

49
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Boon Power Level Comparison
« on: January 31, 2021, 03:24:06 am »
none of the Boon-givers are cantrips, what's up with that?
hmmm...

Pixie is a cantrip though????

50
The other day I won a game on a 3-pile with Dame Josephine as my only VP.

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