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Messages - Warfreak2

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1126
Rules Questions / Re: Market Square when-a-card-is-trashed timing
« on: April 16, 2013, 07:50:52 am »
Blue cards like Secret Chamber and Horse Traders definitely resolve before the attack resolves. Moat has no meaning if you resolve it after you already discarded two cards or got a Curse, and you can't reveal a Moat (or anything else) after you draw a new set of four cards from Minion, which is after the attack resolves. You play Minion, I reveal Horse Traders before you even decide whether to attack or take money, set it aside for next turn, and if you choose to attack, I'm not affected because my hand now has only four cards. Trash a Cultist, discard Market Square, gain a Gold, and then draw three cards, possibly drawing your new Gold. Cellar discarding a Tunnel, you reveal the Tunnel before it gets discarded, then gain a Gold before drawing your new card. Talisman doesn't get you a second copy of a card when you buy it; rather, it resolves before the buy resolves, gives you a first copy of the card, and then the buy gets resolved, gaining you the second copy (or possibly nothing!). Beggar topdecks a Silver before Sea Hag discards it and replaces it with a Curse.

Border Village and Haggler, at least in online implementations, gain you another card after you gain them, but that's the only exception I can think of. That would matter when you gain an Inn, because you could shuffle the Border Village into your deck too. But I'm not sure "that's the way Isotropic works" trumps what the rules actually say, and by my understanding it should work the other way round.

I'm not convinced by the idea that when a card refers to "a card", it implicitly doesn't include itself. When scoring Gardens and Silk Road, each includes themselves in the count of your deck, and Secret Chamber can put itself back on your deck as one of the "two cards" it refers to. I'm not sure there's a strong argument that "a card" is semantically different to "cards" in any other way than one is singular and the other is plural.

Trader and Watchtower have to be revealed from your hand, but they aren't there when you gain them, so no problem there. If you had some way to gain a Watchtower in your hand, I am pretty sure you wouldn't then be allowed to reveal and topdeck it - not because it can't refer to itself, but rather because the gain has already happened, and reactions have to resolve first. If you could gain a Trader in hand, you wouldn't be allowed to reveal it in response to gaining it because Trader reacts to would-gain, which happens strictly before when-gain, and may in fact prevent the gain that would have happened.

If Market Square is resolved before whatever trashed it, then it's still in your hand. I didn't see anything in the rulebook explaining whether, or why, when-trash happens after trashing but when-attacked happens before being attacked.

1127
Rules Questions / Market Square when-a-card-is-trashed timing
« on: April 16, 2013, 06:40:39 am »
Premise: when a Reaction card says "when ____", the reaction actually resolves before the ____ resolves. Therefore, isn't it technically within the rules to trash a Market Square from my hand, react to that trashing by discarding it and gaining a Gold, and then not being able to resolve the trashing because whatever card tried to trash it has Lost Track of it (it's now in my discard pile, rather than my hand)? This seems like it's definitely not the intention of the card, as it would be even better than Fortress' invulnerability (keep the card AND get a Gold), but I'm struggling to work out why it's not within the rules.

1128
Rules Questions / Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« on: April 15, 2013, 07:17:49 pm »
I narrate the Cultists in that detail because I find it very amusing! I did only get the cards a few weeks ago, though, and I've been playing mainly with people who I introduced to the game. It would be good to meet up with some other players, but this surely isn't the thread, or the sub-forum, for that.

1129
Rules Questions / Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« on: April 15, 2013, 07:24:06 am »
You guys are schooling me a lot, which I appreciate! We've been revealing the cards gained from the trash, without thinking about it, and generally narrating our turns ("Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist, +2 Cards, each other player gains a ruins, I may play a Cultist from my hand... Cultist," is comedy). Just seemed like that "reveal it" should be on the card text.

1130
Rules Questions / Re: Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« on: April 14, 2013, 07:11:42 pm »
While we're on the subject of Rogue et al. not telling you to reveal the card you gain from the trash, is it really expected that each other player could pause the game when a Rogue is played, look through the trash to memorise it, resume and then pause again after Rogue is resolved, look through the trash, and identify the missing card? In the interests of not wasting everybody's time, it really seems like Rogue should say "reveal it", since omitting it doesn't enable you to hide what card you gained, and it can't improve gameplay.

1131
Rules Questions / Cards that can secretly change deck composition
« on: April 13, 2013, 05:39:28 am »
More of an observation than a question, but it does make me wonder if DXV realised this when he designed the cards: in a 3+ player game, since Masquerade doesn't instruct you to reveal the cards after passing them around, you don't know what cards are in your opponent's decks any more.

Also, theoretically Rogue/etc. can gain from the trash, and don't instruct you to reveal the gained cards, and other players can't normally look through the trash (I think?). Theoretically they can play Rogues themselves in order to look through and therefore find out what card you took, but they don't always have the opportunity, and if two cards are gained from the trash by different players, in between your trash-inspections, it may be impossible to know who has what cards in their deck. (An edge case when the gain-from-the-trash card is from the Black Market so the other players can't inspect the trash at all).

That has implications for counting the score; primarily, Curses and Estates get passed around, but also you might want to pass a Duchy, or another Victory card better than Estate, if the rest of your hand is exactly the right treasures for buying something good. (As an edge case, a lot of Rabbles followed by Minion and then Masquerade may well force you to pass a green card, and maybe you trashed the estates and only bought Provinces...). Good Victory cards are often in the trash because of being Expanded, or even just remodelled into themselves in the endgame, so Rogue/etc. can also secretly change the score. (Edge cases for gaining from the trash include Silver for Feoda, and Action cards for Vineyards).

Mainly just wondering if that effect is deliberate. Isotropic used to have a score counter, which might therefore actually reveal information to you that you couldn't have known just by watching your opponents very closely and having a good memory.

Edit: I should read the rules - "A player is allowed to count how many cards are left in his deck, but not his discard pile. A player may not look through his deck or his discard pile. A player may look through the trash pile, and players may count the number of cards in any pile in the Supply." So Masquerade is the only one, huh?

1132
Rules Questions / Re: Procession -> Throne Room -> Duration
« on: April 08, 2013, 09:17:51 pm »
OK, so the "explain" rule is really just to keep those Throne Rooms out of your discard pile for one extra turn, rather than because they continue to perform some function themselves? That sounds plausible enough, and it's clear that it can sometimes be significant (e.g. just before a reshuffle, or if you're drawing your deck, buying an Inn, playing Scavenger, or, I suppose, Hermit), but it seems a little unmotivated.

1133
Rules Questions / Procession -> Throne Room -> Duration
« on: April 08, 2013, 08:58:44 pm »
When you Throne Room a Duration card, the Throne Room remains in play along with it, to "explain" why the duration effect applies twice next turn. My question is, what if the Throne Room is trashed after being played, because of Procession? For example,
play Procession
-> play Throne Room
 -> play Laboratory
 -> play Laboratory again
-> play Throne Room again
 -> play Lighthouse
 -> play Lighthouse again
-> trash Throne Room

The Lighthouse would still be in play, and you get $1 twice this turn. But do you get $1 twice next turn, even though the Throne Room is no longer there to "explain" it?

This could get more complex if more Throne Rooms are played:
play Procession
-> play TR1
 -> play TR2
  -> play Lighthouse
  -> play Lighthouse again
 -> play TR2 again
  -> play Caravan
  -> play Caravan again
-> play TR1 again
 -> play TR3
  -> play Wharf
  -> play Wharf again
 -> play TR3 again
  -> play Fishing Village
  -> play Fishing Village again
-> trash TR1

Four duration cards are now played twice each, but only two Throne Rooms remain, unable to explain all of them. Are they all doubled next turn? Are only two of them, and if so, which two? Or are none?

(edit: changed Haven to Caravan, because why would Haven need to be explained next turn?)

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