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Messages - Donald X.

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4601
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: December 05, 2011, 11:22:00 am »
I guess the answer was that this only applies to cards you reveal from your hand, as a special rule. Although I was slightly confused as to why Donald didn't give a clear "yes" to AJD's post.
I addressed this already.

Does it only apply to Secret Chamber and Moat? I thought it also applied to Trader and Watchtower? As of now I take it Secret Chamber is the only one where it would have a point. But there could be future cards.
In games, when you have a rule like "when x happens, do y," y only happens once per time that x happens. If y is optional, that doesn't change things.

Dominion has a special case for reactions revealed from your hand, for reasons having to do with how best to handle Secret Chamber. To be precise and clear then these reactions should be phrased differently; they aren't.

4602
2011 / Re: Schedule and Results: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships
« on: December 05, 2011, 09:13:10 am »
In this last game, there was a bug. Now that I see the log, I played no Potion turn 9, but isotropic offered me to put back Alchemist, two Treasuries, Herbalist (what the?) and Treasure.
I suspect this wasn't a bug, just the program not explaining everything in detail.

On the turn in question you played Treasuries, Alchemist, and Herbalist. All three cards do something when discarded from play; so, you have to order those effects, and the program lets you. In practice you would always put Alchemist ahead of Herbalist (that way you can use Herbalist to put a Potion on top if you have one while still putting Alchemist on top, and hey if you don't want Alchemist on top that's still optional). The program asks though, and the resolution is potentially different based on your decision in the case where you have a Potion in play.

4603
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 26, 2011, 05:47:02 am »
Wasn't there a rule for "when gain", one must gain to trigger it? Need to gain Cache for Trader changing Copper - if Trader changed Cache then no Copper?
Yes, but Watchtower does not stop you from gaining a card (though Trader does); you gain the card, then do something with it with Watchtower.

OK we know it now, the Watchtower lose track of it, but is the losed track a then aquired general state for that card, so any further "when gain" also could not find it? From Donald's last post i assume so!
I'm not sure I understand your question. The lose-track rule doesn't stop things from happening that don't involve moving cards-lost-track-of. If you buy Cache and use Watchtower to put it on your deck, you still have those two Coppers incoming because that rule doesn't care where Cache is. The only thing you can't do once you've moved Cache is move that Cache again.

Example: One has to use Trader first on curse and then Watchtower on the Silver. If one use Watchtower first, one can't react with Trader as second reaction and then again Watchtower.
Trader and Watchtower trigger at different times - Trader is "when you would gain" and Watchtower is "when you gain." You have to use Trader first because its trigger comes first!

4604
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 25, 2011, 06:15:50 pm »
Another thorny interaction occurs to me, since I enjoy thinking about these bizarre edge cases: Border Village + Watchtower. I gain a BV and put it on my discard pile, I gain another card from BV's when-gain effect and put it on my discard pile, and then I want to reveal my Watchtower to put the 2nd card on top of my deck followed by the BV on top of that. Has Watchtower lost track of BV since it got covered up by the 2nd gained card? I wouldn't feel confident making a ruling on this myself without appealing to Donald, but if I was forced to decide in a FtF game I would probably say Watchtower has indeed lost track of BV and cannot move it. I could have revealed Watchtower to put BV on my deck before gaining the 2nd card, but not after.

Inn + Watchtower is maybe an even weirder case. I gain the Inn and put it on my discard, then dig through and reveal some other action cards to shuffle into the deck but not the gained Inn. Now I want to reveal Watchtower to put the gained Inn on top of my deck after shuffling. Did digging through my discard make Watchtower lose track of the Inn, even though it never moved from the top of the discard pile during that process? I'd be inclined to say Watchtower can find the Inn, but again I'm not confident.
Until there's a published rule, let's say that Watchtower works in those two cases, because man everyone is going to think it does. And I think I already ruled somewhere that Watchtower/Border Village worked either way.

The lose-track rule doesn't have a special case for really losing track; that's just something I mention when discussing it. The rule can't be "you don't lose track" because you could really lose track, and Inn at last provides an example.

For the basic Watchtower question people were discussing, the trick is, lose-track only stops you from moving cards that have been lost track of. If you had a card Throw in a Silver, "you may reveal this when you gain a card other than Silver, to also gain a Silver," you could buy Curse, reveal Watchtower to trash it, then reveal Throw in a Silver to also gain a Silver. Throw in a Silver isn't trying to move the Curse, so using Watchtower first doesn't bother it.

4605
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Leaderboard change
« on: November 25, 2011, 06:02:27 pm »
Can the TrueSkill algorithm get enhanced with a factor for number of opponents? Or that the second - third - fourth ... game against same opponent changes less?
The simplest thing to do here would be to only rank games played against random opponents. If you pick your opponent, that game doesn't count. I don't know if this would bother people or what.

TrueSkill can only rank you within a community of players. If you just play one person then it's only ranking you vs. them. And other than the "look at me" guy, there are no doubt people who just/mostly go on isotropic to play friends who then get inaccurately ranked.

The most accurate thing would be to only show a list of you and the people you've played. Then you don't get a single leaderboard though. You could instead only rank people who have played against N people who have played against N people, as a way to guess whether you're really part of the community or not. You could still beat that approach by making tons of dummy accounts and having them all play each other, and maybe this is a community where it's hard to get your first N games because people want to know your ranking in order to play you; dunno there.

4606
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 23, 2011, 06:54:14 pm »
I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.

Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
Donald, can we get a ruling on this? I know that it doesn't actually make a difference currently (other than letting you trash a card, and then quickly change your mind and top-deck it instead... something that would protect against misclicks in ISO, but nothing else), but it would be nice to know for a good understanding of the rules in play. Could I trash a card, and then reveal the same Watchtower again, and top-deck it? What about 2 different Watchtowers?
Watchtower can't find the card once a Watchtower has trashed/topped it, so no, a 2nd Watchtower can't do anything. The as-yet unpublished "lose track" rule.

4607
FYI my understanding is that Doug does not read this forum.

So, hey, Zongker, that's a funny name, isn't it. Zongker.

4608
Rules Questions / Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« on: November 22, 2011, 04:12:11 pm »
Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm not sure you can logically do what you're saying here. Do you discard them in some order, or as a lump?
You do discard them in some order in a lump. The lump has an order.

Based on the strictest interpretation of the "follow as many of the instructions on the card as you can" rule, one could argue that in this situation you would not discard the card: the instruction said to discard two cards, which you cannot do, so you ignore the instruction.
I see, and have seen, how that could be read that way. But this does not confuse anyone ever, and the rulebooks repeat it over and over; "do as much as you can" when applied to "discard 2 cards" specifically means "if you only have one, discard it."

I know that's not the rule as you have declared it, but then I think you've got to explain why the same phrase "discard two cards" is interpreted differently on Torturer and Horse Traders.
They are not interpreted differently!

One final point: Tunnel reacts "when you discard," not "after you have discarded." So I don't understand why you keep saying that you first discard everything and only then check for reactions. If Tunnel has been discarded, technically the time has already passed in which you can reveal Tunnel.
This is the way triggered effects work in almost all games. "When X happens, do Y" means "directly *after* X happens, do Y."

4609
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 21, 2011, 10:12:15 pm »
All right, I mean, I'm justó the rules for reactions are confusing, man, that's all. And not fully explained in the rulebooks, as far as I can tell.
It would have been nice to have a section in the main set rulebook that explained the types, for sure.

4610
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 21, 2011, 09:07:24 pm »
I'll take that as a yes?
You did not get a "yes" because I wanted to be more accurate than you had been.

4611
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 21, 2011, 08:05:00 pm »
So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
The reason that we let you reveal Moat / Secret Chamber twice is because we can't tell if you had multiples or what.

4612
Rules Questions / Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 21, 2011, 04:40:48 pm »
Border Village causes something else to happen when you gain it (and Tunnel optionally does when it's discarded). You only gain it once so it only causes that thing to happen once.

The reason "when an opponent plays an attack card" is an exception to this is because we can't tell if you drew that Moat off of Secret Chamber or had it in your hand already, and if you had it in your hand you could use it, because you would just be picking the order to do two things you wanted to do at the same time. So we let you use it whether it was in your hand or not, and ditto a second Secret Chamber.

4613
Rules Questions / Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« on: November 20, 2011, 04:24:39 pm »
@Kirian: Tunnel's trigger resolves directly after it's discarded. It's in your discard pile then.

@tlloyd: Followers first gives out Curse, then causes discarding, since they are listed in that order. So you can use a Watchtower to trash the Curse, then discard the Watchtower (I recommend keeping it though, since it will draw you up to six).

@tlloyd: We have to pick an order to discard cards - you end up with a particular card on top of your discard pile, if nothing else. However the main set rulebook is clear that you don't get to see all of the cards they discarded to Cellar - which saves us a little time if someone would otherwise stare at the them. So you don't just discard one, discard one, discard one. You pick the cards to discard, you discard them all in some order as a lump. Then Tunnel can trigger and you reveal the Tunnels. Tunnel explicitly makes you reveal it because it might be hidden in cases like these, and hey we have to know you really have a Tunnel there.

@Lhurgoyf: No, in both cases you should discard Watchtower and Tunnel together, then be unable to use Watchtower. I don't know how isotropic handles it but Militia and Minion should not be different there (although of course you can keep Watchtower in hand for Militia since you get to keep 3 cards, but can't keep it for Minion since you discard your whole hand).

4614
Rules Questions / Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« on: November 20, 2011, 12:10:37 am »
Let's assume, that my opponent plays a Minion and makes me discard a Tunnel, which I reveal to gain a Gold.
In my newly drawn 4 cards I have a Watchtower and a Trader.

Here are the questions:

Can I reveal the Trader to gain a Silver instead?
Can I reveal the Watchtower to trash the Silver?
You can't use the Watchtower or Trader there. You finish resolving Tunnel before you draw your new hand, so for any reactions in your new hand, it's too late.

When you discard cards from your hand, you pick the order to discard them, which matters (albeit not very much) because the top card of your discard pile is revealed. However you discard them all, then check for reactions. So if you had to discard a reaction, you no longer have it in hand to trigger off of the discard. This only applies if multiple cards are discarded to the same uh effect. You discard them all at once. This is in line with the main rulebook's ruling that you don't have to show all of the cards to the other players when you discard to Cellar - just the one that ends up on top.

However if you play Hamlet and discard Tunnel for +1 Action, that would resolve before you decided whether or not to discard a card for +1 Buy.

4615
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug with Scheme and with Inn
« on: November 12, 2011, 02:38:44 pm »
More importantly, will it also irritate me on my way to doing something I really meant to do even though it's abnormal, like passing when I could have bought something because I don't actually want an Estate yet.
That would certainly be ideal for me.

4616
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug with Scheme and with Inn
« on: November 12, 2011, 01:57:01 pm »
I'm aware of TR/KC, I just lumped those in with durations that won't discarded in order to not make my posts even longer. (Since nobody brought them up after that one time, I assumed everybody else did this too.) I just assumed those would be marked "new" and "old" as well.
Well 1) perhaps you can understand why making an absolute statement, having it be corrected and saying no really you're right, and then saying "oh yeah I also meant something else too" is not the height of clear communication; and 2) in fact as has been pointed out in this thread already, you can also have a duration card that does not stick around (Tactician played with no cards to discard), and for those situations you easily might want to play and pick one of them (buying Peddler). Hooray for isotropic not doing something stupid like not letting you pick duration cards played this turn!

(Interestingly, you're kinda saying what I've been saying: Clicking the new durations would be a mistake. So we're talking about an option that should be there for the only practical purpose of maybe making the user make a mistake.)
A good first guess is that we two are not saying the same thing about anything! The ?! that stops you from making a mistake may also just irritate you on your way to doing something you really meant to do even though it's abnormal, like passing when you could have bought something because you don't actually want an Estate yet.

The point to letting you click on any action is and has always been the accurate implementation of the card.

As for the argument that it's strictly correct the way it is now, and that's why it has to be that way. Why?
Again, an excellent answer is, because that is the way Doug Z. did it, a man who pays for a server so that people can complain about his free implementation of Dominion.

You should switch to complaining about how the commercial version will work. I am betting it will let you pick an action that won't actually be discarded.

4617
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug with Scheme and with Inn
« on: November 11, 2011, 09:55:58 pm »
Incorrect! In fact there is no simpler way to describe the set of cards that are discarded than those words I just used to describe it in this sentence.
I now realize that Treasures can also not be discarded after playing Herbalist. I do think that when it comes to actions, there are only durations played this turn, as of now.
In fact that is not the case. I will just tell you, Throne Room and King's Court stay in play with the duration cards they were used on. They are not duration cards. This has been brought up in this thread already but there you go. I could not consider a phrasing like "choose a non-duration card" for Scheme because it would have done bad and confusing things with Throne Rooms.

It also seems very weird to me that the ones who are saying isotropic should not behave differently on this, because it would add overhead and it's not isotropic's job to make that call for you, are all okay with adding the the "?!" warning..? This would also involve changing isotropic in a similar way, and most certainly add overhead. And then isotropic would pretty much make that judgment call for you anyway.
A ?! would be a way to help players not make a mistake. Not listing cards that Scheme irl actually lets you pick would be depriving you of an option the real game gives you. That is how those things are different. One follows the rules and one does not.

This is not the only pointless yet accurate option Isotropic gives you. For example, when you play Oracle and decide not to discard the cards, you pick what order to put them back. Then you draw them. There could conceivably be a card that made this matter of course.

4618
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug with Scheme and with Inn
« on: November 11, 2011, 07:15:35 pm »
The players know which cards will be discarded, and so does isotropic. It's all cards except the durations played this turn. That's the only exception to the rule.
Incorrect! In fact there is no simpler way to describe the set of cards that are discarded than those words I just used to describe it in this sentence.

Here's a good way to think about this important issue.

Some guy made an online version of Dominion, in his free time, for fun.

He owes you zilch. Try not to piss him off, that's my advice.

4619
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug with Scheme and with Inn
« on: November 11, 2011, 02:49:19 pm »
(Actually, this is not strictly true.  Wishing Well and Contraband ought to allow you to name ANY card, not just cards in the supply, but that's the only example I can think of, and let's be honest, Contrabanding Black Lotus is only funny the first time.)
Well it does let you name non-supply cards being used this game, e.g. prizes.

Scheme has the wording it does in order to behave understandably with one-shots / duration cards / throne rooms, and to be printable at all. Scheme also lets you use it on itself for exactly the same reason - the best phrasing happened to let you use it on itself.

It should be clear from the Trader fallout that a "would" phrasing would not have been preferable. And in general the possibility of a new way to misclick in isotropic due to its strict adherence to the rules is not going to get me to make a printed card's phrasing worse.

4620
Rules Questions / Re: Ironworks + Trader
« on: November 10, 2011, 04:25:43 pm »
If I play Goons, buy a copper, then reveal Trader and gain a silver instead, do I still get the VP? Or does the "gain a silver" event replace the "buying a copper" event? I would expect the answer is I do get the VP, since that is triggered by buying the copper, which I've already done before I can gain it. Since the Trader is triggered by "about-to-gain," it only replaces the "gain a copper" event, not the "buy a copper event." Right?
Yes, you get the VP. You bought a Copper.

You could for example play Haggler, buy Mint, trash your treasures from play, gain a card costing less than Mint via Haggler, and still Trader the Mint into a Silver.

4621
Dominion World Masters / Re: Dominion WM Kingdom Sets
« on: November 10, 2011, 01:25:04 pm »
@Donald X. - any particular reason why you had each set as an even split of two expansions?
I didn't! For GenCon, I only had 3 Alchemy cards and 4 Cornucopia cards in those sets, and of course there are sets of 10 from each large expansion.

I went 5 and 5 just to maximize how much I was mixing the expansions. I went 6/4 for Cornucopia because Cornucopia has fewer cards and I didn't want to get the same combinations too much. For Alchemy I went 7/3 because there were some Alchemy cards I was avoiding and so it was the same problem only worse. I didn't combine three sets at once because the games were irl and you know, you have to deal with all of the boxes of cards.

For Essen, Jay specified in advance what the mix of expansions was, including how many cards from each, so I just followed the program. If I had gotten to pick the sets there I would have had Hinterlands in every game, because hey, show what you can do with the new cards.

4622
Dominion World Masters / Re: Dominion WM Kingdom Sets
« on: November 09, 2011, 12:02:18 pm »
Here are the sets-of-10 used at GenCon and Essen.

Tournament sets-of-10 for GenCon:

Dom: Bureaucrat, Council Room, Feast, Laboratory, Market, Moneylender, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Workshop
DomInt: Adventurer, Laboratory, Library, Militia, Throne Room / Bridge, Masquerade, Shanty Town, Steward, Trading Post
DomSea: Cellar, Feast, Gardens, Witch, Workshop / Ambassador, Fishing Village, Lighthouse, Merchant Ship, Treasury
DomPro: Adventurer, Council Room, Mine, Moneylender, Village / Expand, Loan, Quarry, Vault, Venture
DomAlc: Cellar, Gardens, Market, Militia, Mine, Remodel, Throne Room / Alchemist, Apothecary, Herbalist
DomCor: Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Chapel, Festival, Library, Moat / Hamlet, Horse Traders, Jester, Remake
Int: Conspirator, Coppersmith, Courtyard, Duke, Harem, Nobles, Scout, Trading Post, Upgrade, Wishing Well
IntSea: Conspirator, Coppersmith, Harem, Masquerade, Mining Village / Ambassador, Caravan, Merchant Ship, Native Village, Tactician
IntPro: Great Hall, Ironworks, Masquerade, Mining Village, Upgrade / City, Grand Market, Royal Seal, Talisman, Trade Route
IntAlc: Courtyard, Duke, Great Hall, Minion, Nobles, Scout, Wishing Well / Herbalist, Transmute, Vineyard
IntCor: Bridge, Ironworks, Minion, Shanty Town, Steward, Upgrade / Fairgrounds, Harvest, Horse Traders, Young Witch / Bane is Courtyard
Sea: Caravan, Embargo, Explorer, Fishing Village, Ghost Ship, Island, Lighthouse, Salvager, Treasury, Warehouse
SeaPro: Ghost Ship, Haven, Island, Lookout, Tactician / Bishop, Trade Route, Venture, Watchtower, Worker's Village
SeaAlc: Bazaar, Cutpurse, Lookout, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Warehouse, Wharf / Apprentice, University, Vineyard
SeaCor: Bazaar, Embargo, Haven, Navigator, Warehouse, Wharf / Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Party
Pro: Bank, Expand, Goons, Hoard, Mint, Monument, Peddler, Royal Seal, Talisman, Worker's Village
ProAlc: Bank, Goons, Hoard, Mint, Quarry, Vault, Watchtower / Apothecary, Apprentice, Transmute
ProCor: Bishop, Grand Market, Loan, Monument, Peddler, Rabble / Farming Village, Horn of Plenty, Menagerie, Tournament

Essen Tournament sets-of-10:

Dom: Cellar, Festival, Library, Market, Militia, Moneylender, Smithy, Thief, Throne Room, Woodcutter
Int: Conspirator, Coppersmith, Duke, Great Hall, Harem, Pawn, Scout, Steward, Torturer, Upgrade
DomSea: Adventurer, Bureaucrat, Council Room, Remodel, Workshop / Caravan, Ghost Ship, Merchant Ship, Native Village, Outpost
DomAlc: Chancellor, Festival, Moat, Witch, Woodcutter / Apprentice, Golem, Philosopher's Stone, University, Vineyard
DomPro: Cellar, Council Room, Gardens, Thief, Village / Forge, Hoard, Loan, Rabble, Venture
DomCor: Cellar, Feast, Laboratory, Mine, Workshop / Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Horn of Plenty, Menagerie

4623
Rules Questions / Re: Ironworks + Trader
« on: November 05, 2011, 10:14:58 pm »
In MtG, I might have a creature that says "tap: Gain an amount of life equal to this creature's power". I could use that ability, and with MtG's stack you could kill that creature before the ability happens.  So then the question of how much life I need to gain comes up.
As it happens, I am the person who suggested that rule for Magic. Which is to say, as with anything I suggested, I don't know if they got it from me or from someone else with the same suggestion, since I never saw what went on internally; but there was a point when they needed a good rule here and I proposed last known information.

I dodged LKI in Dominion by having cost be the only card stat that can change, and changing it everywhere whenever it changes. If you need to know what types a card has, you always know, because it never changes. If all copies of the card are hidden away in decks, look at the randomizer.

We can't really evaluate how the corresponding situation would go in Magic, without picking a precise phrasing for a Magic card, and you know, it's always going to come down to stuff that isn't part of the actual Dominion question. But I mean, if you have a Demonic Tutor-like card that says "then gain life equal to its CMC" or some such, and Shadow of Doubt stops you from searching, there's no card to refer to the CMC of. For example. Even if Shadow of Doubt also gave you a Silver.

4624
Rules Questions / Re: Throne room/king's court
« on: November 04, 2011, 05:04:37 pm »
Donald made a different ruling back in the day that was quite difficult to adjudicate, but his latest ruling is that you only keep TR & KC cards that are directly modifying an in-play Duration card.

Is there a link to the latest ruling?
I will go you one better and repeat the ruling, making this post itself the latest ruling.

You only keep TR and KC in play if they directly played a duration card. If you KC a KC a duration card, the first KC is discarded, the second stays in play.

This is just the most direct interpretation of the rulebook. Briefly I said both stayed out, but the way of specifying that is convoluted and anyway did not match the rulebook.

4625
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite thematic cards
« on: November 04, 2011, 09:23:30 am »
So there are several cards in Dominion where the relationship between the name of the card and what it does in the game (or its relationship to other cards) is obscure at best: What does a throne room have to do with doing something twice?
The idea behind Throne Room is, that when the king gives you an order directly, man, you hop to it.

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