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26

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: August 19, 2011, 01:37:48 pm »

Armageddon:
$7
Reaction

Play this reaction only to an opponent playing either an action or a treasure. Drop this card from at least 3 feet above the playing surface. Once Armageddon lands, the opponent trashes all cards in contact with it, exluding cards from his deck or discard pile. Discard this card from your hand once you play it as a reaction.

If armageddon is in your hand at the start of your turn, place your hand, deck and discard pile into the trash pile.

27

Rules Questions / Re: New to the game

« on: August 19, 2011, 01:16:55 pm »

I have to second (or third?) this:  Just tell the guy what it does next time.

Replying back with something along the lines of "figure it out yourself" is not helping anyone.

Games like this live and die based on the playerbase, and alienating someone by acting like an elitist jerk is not appropriate whatsoever. I've found guided to be an MVP on these forums, for various reasons - his posts are always value-added. But this thread's responses are just out of line (my opinion).

It's a lot different saying: Here's what it does. Here's why.

Than saying: Here's a clue, now go figure it out yourself.

The former comes across as being enlightening and inclusive. The latter comes across as dismissive and exclusive (kind of a "shoo gnat" - especially when the answer, even given the "clue" is still potentially elusive).

At least that's how I interpreted it.

The actual specific answers in this thread are correct. I'm only posting this to hopefully aid all of us to responding in a positive way to these kind of questions in the future. Growing the community is more important than teaching someone to fish. They'll learn to fish if they like fishing. if you make them hate fishing, they'll just bugger-off.

28

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Meta Cards

« on: August 19, 2011, 09:16:33 am »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as it is currently worded, I don't think sewers would stack. They would both allow you to set aside an estate and draw 2 cards, but the effect wouldn't stack, because you have to pay the cost first (set aside the card) to get the benefit (2 cards).

I think of this as two enchantments in Magic the Gathering that read "Discard an estate: draw 2 cards". Such an enchantment would not stack with itself.

It would stack if it instead read as such: 
While this is in play, you may set aside an estate or curse at anytime in your action phase. While this card is in play, if a curse or estate is set aside this turn: +2 cards.




Similarly, I believe two smelters would stack with the current wording, even though it looks to me like the current wording was designed specifically so that they don't stack.

Both smelters would exist in play and the condition of "if at least one smelter is in play" would trigger on each card, and each card would trigger the benefit, thus stacking.

If you did *not* want this to stack, the wording could be changed to "If only 1 smelter is in play: ______". However, I don't see a problem with this card stacking. I actually really like this card, I think it is quite a fun design.

29

Dominion General Discussion / Re: King's Court purchase timing

« on: August 19, 2011, 08:52:48 am »

Yes of course this discussion only exists if you actually want a KC in your deck. If there's nothing good to KC, you obviously take gold with your $7. But I would posit that if you have a terminal silver action, you'd still take the KC here - provided you are going to get more KC later in the game, and there are other actions to take later to compliment the KC.

My interpretation of the question was that he was looking if it was better to get KC with low action count, or if he should get more actions first. I would always take the KC here, provided I was going for a KC deck, even if I had a decent chance of it being blank on the next shuffle. It's a lot easier to pick up lower-cost actions on subsequent turns than it is to pick up a quick KC. And while a blank KC stinks, it's not THAT bad, and if you get the chance to get an early KC'd action (like say turn 4 or 5), that has the potential to instantly win the game for you (pretty much).

For example, for the Swindler/Silver opening on a kingdom with Lab/KC. Buying a lab with $7 will help you draw your actions more, and could help you get a KC again. But I'd personally rather get the quick KC. If I miss the KC/Swindler on the next shuffle, no biggie, I can grab another swindler at the very least (I could get EEECC, but still...). However, if I hit a turn 4, 5 or 6 KC'd swindler, it puts my opponent in a really bad place. 

Picking up a Lab in that spot, I could definitely hit a bunch of $6's in the next turns, which isn't terrible, but I think I'd rather the KC here. Also, I think KC and any terminal silver is pretty solid, because all you need is a copper in the same hand and you get a 2nd KC.

Now I think that's a more interesting question. Suppose you do pick up the KC on turn 3 with $7 and a terminal silver action in your deck. If you hit $7 again, do you pick up a 2nd KC with only one other action in your deck or do you get another action, say the lab. I would pick up the lab on this $7, but I could be wrong there too?

 

30

Dominion General Discussion / Re: King's Court purchase timing

« on: August 18, 2011, 04:18:50 pm »

Yes, but getting back to the point of the thread, I think if you get a lucky 7 early (say open silver/$2 action and get a turn 3 hand with $7), I think you still buy the KC here, don't you?

If you spend the $7 on gold, that's good and all, but it doesn't help your kings court (although it'll help you buy one later, which is why it's "good and all"). If you spend it on a $5 action, you are kinda wasting $2.

I would err towards picking up the KC too early. I would note that it's probably too early, and I consider this "unlucky" but I would still grab it now. I'd hate to pick up a Lab instead (for example) and then spend 4-5 turns getting to $6 but not higher.

If there was a strong action $6 then I'd grab that, but I'd be hesitant to spend $7 on a $5 action that I know I'll get later, but I don't know if I'll get the $7 again too soon. Sure, drawing the KC dead on turn 5 will suck if it happens, but you just use that turn to get a solid $4 or $3 action, so it's not *that* wasted. At least you still have a KC in your deck.

Am I wrong in this?

31

Game Reports / Re: TR/KC/Black Market/Harvest madness

« on: August 16, 2011, 10:29:12 am »

That's a funny game indeed.

I too largely ignore harvest, but I've used it in a few games. If there are a bunch of different "cantrips" or villages, it can generate a surprising amount of money.

A few months ago I played a game with:

Chapel
Pawn
Village
Wishing Well
Warehouse
Workers Village
Laboratory
Harvest
2 others that I can't remember at this moment.

I thought.... why not.. and I went for the harvest deck. It was very rewarding and satisfying.

32

Goko Dominion Online / Re: iPhone App

« on: August 16, 2011, 08:12:57 am »

I was hoping to see an app similar to the Ascension iPhone app.

Good work though.

33

Simulation / Re: Simulating Challenge - Harem

« on: August 12, 2011, 03:12:49 pm »

Actually, it was a busy day at work and I think I was a bit mixed up. I was picturing something high-level, where a different strategy would lose to another strategy (and each option would lose to another one).

Infact, the only thing that matters here is the game-length - that is the only true variable. Once this is decided, only one discrete answer should win.

High-level you can visualize each deck graphed, with the Y-axis being current VP points, X axis is game-turns. Imagine three cases, resulting in different trade-offs for buying power vs Current VP. The three graphs are:

1) Root, ex Y = squareroot of X
2) Linear, say Y = x + 0.000001
3) Square, say Y = X^2

Before X = 1, The Case A wins.
After X = 1, Case C wins
Right on, or very near X = 1, Case B wins.

However, generally there is only 1 winner.


Perhaps the paper/rock/scissors effect only happens when the decks can interact with eachother. And since there is no interaction here, it is actually impossible for paper/rock/scissors to occur?



I actually think the thing I was thinking of is that the results of this simulation will only be valid for the assumptions made in the case to be studied. I.e. Province vs Colony games (as that is really the only variable in terms of game-length parameters).

34

Simulation / Re: Simulating Challenge - Harem

« on: August 09, 2011, 11:44:35 am »

Varying strategies for timing of when to hop into Harem. I.e. varying levels of VP curve/Buying Curve trade-offs.

For example, just for argument sake:

Case A: Buy 2 golds then buy harems with $6.
Case B: Buy 1 gold then buy harems with $6.
Case C: Buy harems with $6 always.


Now, without a doubt, the buying power curves and Vp per turn curves of these three cases are different.

Case A has a more exponential-shaped buying power curve and VP curve.
Case C has a more linear buying power curve, and VP point curve.
Case B is in the middle.

The winner in these games will be determined by the length of the game.

What I'm trying to articulate here is that without a doubt, trading buying power for current VP is what is going on here, and if you graphed these two curves, the linear curve starts out ahead, but the exponential curve surpasses it. When? I'm not sure. It may pass it too late, and thus never win (in province games).

So maybe for province games, there may not exist paper-rock scissors, maybe it does. But, if paper rock scissors doesn't exist for Province games, simply due to the length of the game being short enough that perhaps Case C always wins. But I'm fairly certain that Paper/Rock/Scissors will exist for Colony games.

35

Simulation / Re: Simulating Challenge - Harem

« on: August 09, 2011, 10:53:47 am »

I think this is a perfect case of Paper Rock Scissors. Just from a high-level perspective I don't see how it can be any different.

I have a feeling that we may start out at Case A, then develop Case B that beats Case A. Then Case C that beats Case B. Then we conclude that Case C is optimal, but infact, Case A crushes Case C.

That's my prediction with Harem.

I think that's going to happen in any situation where choosing between two cards (in this case, it's Gold vs Harem) is a sacrifice of buying power for current VP lead.

Then again, it may also be the case that the game will end early enough that the Harem-buying deck can end the game before it is punished for reducing it's buying power for the earlier VP lead. i.e. perhaps we'd see a more interesting Paper/Rock/Scissors playing out if there were 10 provinces in a 2-player game instead of 8.

36

Game Reports / Re: Dear My Opponent: I am Sorry

« on: August 09, 2011, 10:41:22 am »

I come from a very competitive background (Varsity/minor league baseball growing up, competitive cards, and even the competitive workplace)... so the very thought of giving my opponent a break simply does not register to me.

IMO, if it's a "rated" match, it qualifies as a competitive environment. There is nothing I would ever do to reduce my winning percentage (excluding ethics/moral issues, such as declining to abuse some programming bug, etc).

If someone is playing anonymously for a non-rated game, then sure, I'll skip my turn, heck I'd even resign myself and in my head know that I won. But if it's a rated game, even though there's really no money involved... it's rated, it's competitive. 

Someone says they'll resign on their turn? Sure go for it, but first you are going to sit through my turn, because I'm going to quad-province after my 2 min combo. If you don't like it, go take a bio break and resign when you get back, but I'm not giving away any edge. Life is tough. Nut-up Sally.

37

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Rubberbanding cards?

« on: August 09, 2011, 10:08:21 am »

Revolutionary seems like a pile to me. It needs to do something else by itself, like +1 card/+1 action.

On the whole though, I like the idea of cards you can audible to based on the current gamestate.

What about a reverse counting house for opponent VP cards? I.e.

Land Tax
$5
All players take all Victory Cards in their discard pile and place them on the top of their deck in any order.


FWIW, Rabble is a bit of a rubber band card. It is much stronger as your opponent greens.

38

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which cursing card to go for (when 2+ are available)?

« on: August 09, 2011, 09:48:41 am »

That is a very pertinent point Theory. Many of these simulation results are biased in the setup of the simulation (i.e. choosing the opponents to be big money variants will bias the results towards whatever beats big money variants).

That being said, in a curse-heavy game, I would be pretty apprehensive to build a combo engine - although that again obviously depends on the resilience of the combo deck to bloating. For example, something like Worker's Village/Peddler/Bridge will be completely useless when bloated, but something like Kings Court/Warehouse/Remodel could survive it?

/edit, I can't type today

39

Game Reports / Re: Gray's Game Help

« on: August 09, 2011, 09:21:18 am »

There is no way I'd go Sab on a board with peddler That's such a straight up disinsentive to Sab. Then again, it's hard to pick them up without wasting your money, as there are no +buys on the board.

40

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ambassador, not so amazing in > 2p?

« on: August 08, 2011, 01:42:58 pm »

Indeed, I don't think it was so much that you two lost because of Ambassador itself, but rather by overlooking the effect that emptying a pile did to the game (while giving your opponents some quick VP gain).

As long as you keep an eye on how much VP each opponent has, how close the game is to 3-pile end, I think if you adjust your province/duchy buying rules to account for it, you'll still be way ahead using ambassador than not using it. Giving coppers instead of estates is an okay idea, but I would still give estates back for the first few times.

A simply duchy or two (or province or two) should be enough to offset the short-term VP you just gave your opponents. They will then be in the position of catching up to you in VP, but have slower decks than you.

I think the error was likely made in missing the need to buy a province/duchy slightly earlier as the game was not expected to end so early? I could be wrong, I'm only going off my own experience.


I posted this in the other thread as well, but I played a similar game this weekend against some kids I was teaching the game to. It was a 4-player game with pawn/great hall. Mostly being accustomed to 2-P games, I was taken back by how quickly that game 3-piled (10 or 11 turns). Infact, the player that won the game opened Duchy/pawn believe it or not!

41

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Make "Bad" Cards Shine!

« on: August 08, 2011, 10:33:04 am »

Golem works very well with Chancellor/Counting house. Do not buy any other actions besides those three.

Playing Golem will immediately find chancellor/counting house, and put your entire deck in the discard pile. You then pick up every copper and buy a province (get 8 coppers).

As already stated, chancellor/stash is a good combo.

Bureaucrat works well in any game where you don't need to hit $8 as much as you need to hit $5 or $4 (and the opponent will green quickly). i.e. Duke or Gardens games.

42

Tournaments and Events / Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?

« on: August 08, 2011, 09:28:46 am »

As funny as this is, I played a completely relevant-to-this-conversation game against a 4 year old, 6 year old and 8 year old at the cottage this weekend.

I was teaching them the game and we hit our first 10-kindgom set game. In the kingdom was Pawn, and Great hall. For teaching purposes, I opened chapel - to show them why you want to trash your early cards. They all opened stuff like estate/great hall, or estate/duchy, etc.

Hilariously enough, with the buying frenzy for pawn/estate/great hall, the game ended on piles VERY early , and even though my deck was obviously way stronger, the game ended so quickly that I actually finished in second place to an 8 year old that opened duchy/pawn on a 5/2.

It kind of opened my eyes. In 4 player games, I think the largest thing to evaluate is group-think. If everyone is racing cheap cards, the game can pile-end VERY quickly. I mean VERY VERY quickly. I'm talking 10 to 11 turns quick.

43

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Custom Set Challenge #1

« on: August 08, 2011, 08:55:57 am »

I think as part of your challenge, you need to establish a clearer "goal".

For example, (my personal opinion is that) Kirian's "educational set" would be a disaster to teach new players with. So the education part only would be good for players with a few games under their belt.

Whenever I teach someone the game, I actually find the best way is to play with:

Copper
Silver
Gold

Estate
Duchy
Province (only 2 of each per player playing)

Smithy
Woodcutter
Steward
Laboratory


Anything more than that is generally confusing. We'll play a quick intro game, then I'll start adding in more kindgom cards 2 (or so) at a time. First two are usually Witch/Miltia, then Remodel/Village, etc. Once they get the hang of the first set of 4 cards, it's a lot easier to baby-step them into new types of cards (attacks, filter, "remodels", action chains, etc).

I find that teaching too many different aspects of the game at the start is just overwhelming, especially for non "gamers".

I've even managed to teach my 4 year old son how to play dominion. We started with just money (not even point cards). Over a handful of games, he's actually able now to evaluate 10-card kingdoms and play a full game. He actually wins surprisingly often! (he loves himself a montebank/witch!)


I think you started on the right path with defining your goals, but you should elaborate more on what the purpose of the set is... possibly giving consideration to giving out a "rating scheme", such as:

/2 + Multiple Strategic Routes to Victory
/2 + Killer Combos
/2 + Underused / rarely purchased cards more useful
/2 + Overused / frequently purchased cards balanced by other options on the board
/2 + Educational (Playing the set will allow players to better get a grasp of card nuances)

Total /10

The reason I say this is that the above scoring scheme will create kingdoms that are good at lots of stuff, but not extremely good at one.

A better challenge would be to just include one (or maybe two) categories. For example,

/5 Educational
/5 Multiple Strategic routes to victory

/10

I think that "goal" inspires "better" kingdoms for the specific criteria.

44

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your Blind Spot

« on: August 05, 2011, 02:05:36 pm »

1. The point isn't to talisman gardens, it's to talisman other stuff to make gardens fat. It's not so good by itself, but with other stuff... possible.
2. Most boards are faster than that. Heck big money/caravan by itself might be about as fast.
3. Being ahead on Caravans and talismans is not such a great thing - you really don't want to be ahead on talismans after the caravan (or whatever other stack) runs out - would you want to be ahead on copper?

1) Is this still a good idea though? Most turns you'll be buying a gardens, so it doesn't trigger off that. How much excess money is there (in a hand with a "copper") that you can now spend on other cards? Either you are buying a gardens and not triggering the talisman, or you are buying a gardens and two coppers with the talisman provided you have a +buy. I dunno, it seems "okay" at best to me.

2) Sure some are, but some aren't. It's not uncommon to get 6 caravans by turn 7-8, and that's pretty strong and pretty fast, despite the fact that you now have 3 talismans in your deck. This is doubly so if there is a trash for value card that can "upgrade" those talismans after. I do agree with you that most times you want 1 at most... but I think specifically, Caravan is a time when it's okay to pick up three (others likely being stuff like Village/Conspirator, Village/Bishop (lots of food for the bishops), cantrip/peddler - especially a +buy card such as worker's village).

3) I 100% agree with you, and is why I put similar statements into my post (such as "talisman opening will be explosive, but will sacrifice a lot of tempo to get going, and will certainly have a hard time producing $8 any time soon" and " I would lean away from it if there is only one good $4 - at which point I may not even pick up a single talisman though!"


If feels to me like we mostly agree with eachother, and yet are having an argument? haha

45

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your Blind Spot

« on: August 05, 2011, 11:17:02 am »

Talisman doesn't work on Gardens. You'd only get it if there was workshop on the board.

You also don't need to draw triple talisman for it to be strong. Simply drawing them on separate turns will be strong. Going $4 double caravan, $4 double caravan, $4 double caravan is pretty good.

Looking at buying talisman/caravan on your first talisman:

First time through your deck you are down 2 caravans and up 2 talismans.
Second time through your deck you are back to even on caravans and up 2 talismans.
Every time afterwards you are ahead on both.

So I guess it just depends on how fast the board is, and if those talismans are dead cards after the caravan pile is empty. It should be noted that the tempo loss in the first time you buy the talisman is quickly made back up. Note that this is providing you hit $4, so in the event you hit $3 with your talisman the 2nd time through your deck, it is obviously a dangerous play if there are no good $3's to purchase (there's always silver though).

I do think that it's closer than first glance though.

I would lean towards 3 talismans (buying a talisman off your first talisman) if there are good $3's, and/or if there is another good $4. I would lean away from it if there is only one good $4 - at which point I may not even pick up a single talisman though!

46

Game Reports / Re: A game you're proud of, and a game you're not.

« on: August 05, 2011, 11:06:30 am »

The game was won, but I would be hesitant drawing any form of strategical conclusion from that game. It was a complete and utter mess on your opponent's part. The only reason you didn't absolutely crush him from the start was your terrible luck in the early turns - otherwise this game would have been a 50-10 smashing (or therabouts).

47

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your Blind Spot

« on: August 05, 2011, 08:53:01 am »

Actually, on that board, I would suspect that opening talisman is paramount to conceding the tournament game to the opponent. The talisman opening will be explosive, but will sacrifice a lot of tempo to get going, and will certainly have a hard time producing $8 any time soon.

Talisman/Caravan is solid, but I don't think Talisman/Tournament is very good.

Ideally, Talisman decks want to buy another talisman with their first talisman.
For example,
Turn 1, Silver
Turn 2, Talisman
Turn 3,  Play Talisman gaining 2x talisman
Turn 4, Caravan or Silver
Turn 5, Caravan or Silver
Turn 6, Play triple talisman, gaining four caravans

This is cute and all (and likely devastating, especially if there is a +buy somewhere, or a cheap source of +action/$), but the province deck just bought a turn 6 province, making tournaments a very risky buy.

48

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Action Card Equations

« on: August 05, 2011, 08:29:42 am »

6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?

This is essentially Minion if you have only minion in your hand. Three labs functions like +4 card, +1 action, which is what minion's cycle with only minion remaining in your hand does.

That works except that one of the rules I had said that you start with five cards in your hand.  I think perhaps that rule is worth scrapping, though.

Indeed. If you must start with 5 cards, you could always have haven'd 4 times prior.

49

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Action Card Equations

« on: August 04, 2011, 03:18:37 pm »

1. Village + Bazaar + Herbalist = ?
2. Bazaar + Market + Laboratory = ?
3. Native Village + Peddler = ?
4. Laboratory + Village + Chapel + Explorer = ?
5. Trusty Steed + Workshop = ?
6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
7. Village + Village + Spy + Moat + Tournament = ?
8. Laboratory + Village + Village + Steward + Pawn = ?
9. Native Village + Native Village + Native Village + Mine + Mine + Mine + Mine = ?
10. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Village + Village + Village + Village + Bureaucrat + Bureaucrat + Explorer + Explorer + Cellar + Cellar + Chancellor = ?

2. Bazaar + Market + Laboratory = ?

After playing all three you are left with (net):  $2/2 action/1 buy and a 5 card hand. I suspect you wanted this to match Grand Market, but it is 1 action too heavy? This would be grand market if the Bazaar was a peddler instead.

3. Native Village + Peddler = ?

After playing both you are left with 2 actions, $1 and -1 card. So I assume you are looking for fishing village?

6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
This is essentially Minion if you have only minion in your hand. Three labs functions like +4 card, +1 action, which is what minion's cycle with only minion remaining in your hand does.

50

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your Blind Spot

« on: August 04, 2011, 08:54:32 am »

On the topic of blind-spots, I tend to ignore cards like Horn of Plenty and Fairgrounds (possibly to my detriment). For Horn of Plenty, I'm not typically a fan of Workshop-type cards unless there are tons of solid 3/4's to buy and a lack of +buys on the board. I've seen some pretty sick Horn of Plenty decks though.

Beside those, I have a tendency to ignore bad cards that can sometimes be outstanding, such as Coppersmith, Counting House, Chancellor, etc. Then I'll see a Warehouse/Tactician/Coppersmith deck slam down 4 provinces in 10-12 turns. Or a Golem/Chancellor/Counting house deck just wreck face.

My biggest "blind spot" is recognizing when terrible cards are actually very good.