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Messages - Minotaur

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2151
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 11:39:06 pm »
I doubt it...  Expand loses games.

Except Expand doesn't have a sum of parts to be better than.  All it grants is a little flexibility that can hardly ever justify buying it over a Gold.  There are times I'd pay $4 or $5 for one or two things Expand can do (and more), but there's no way I'd pay $7 to have all of them (and no more).  If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.

I cannot be sure if you are trolling, or if you really are terribly misinformed.

I really didn't think that there was likely to be a reason to buy it over a Gold.  I guess I'll have to look at those game logs, because apparently stronger players have found acceptable use cases.  In my games, it's always been a 3-for-1 really bad Mine taped to a really unreliable terminal Rebuild taped to a really overpriced Upgrade.

2152
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:58:51 pm »
expand is worth buying on boards where it is the only TfB and you want a TfB. This is a fairly large fraction of board with expand in it, but that doesn't make it good. If you disregard Expand on every board with another TfB, you can expect good things generally. Scout is the scout of all cards, e.i., ignore it if there are other cards, so Expand being the scout of TfB means ignore it if there are other TfB

Transmute gets a lot of hate, but you can throw a Potion and an extra buy at it for the lulz and maybe pick up some Golds and lose some Curses eventually.  Expand is so maddening because it *could* be a decent card, but the cost is insane.

2153
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:52:02 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.

Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark, though.  None of those cards can do what Masquerade is good at, though Ambassador is a close call - all it's missing is a two-card draw to filter through stuff.  And Ambassador is a strong $3 card.  Mine costs $5, and is usually sort of weak - mind you, Expand costs $7.

Mine is a lot better than Expand if you want treasure -> treasure.  There is no reason you'd want Expand if Mine is on the board for this, and "Mine might not be on the board" doesn't make Expand not suck.  Similarly, Rebuild blows Expand out of the water if you're going for VP - it's non-terminal, and it finds the VP for you (unless you drew them all, but ok).  Want to trash junk cards?  Altar still costs less, ties when trashing Estates, and is strictly better at trashing coppers and curses - like, by a lot.  Half the time, Expand is just a regrettable Upgrade in my hand that should've been a Gold.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

I think you missed my point.  The Masquerade example is meant to show that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  You can't just focus on any one specific effect.  With Masq, it's strong because all of those parts have synergy.  With Expand, it can sometimes be strong because it gives flexibility.

If you pick one specific function, sure, another card will beat it, but Expand lets you do more than any one of those cards.  You can go Curse->Silver or Estate->$5 action.  OK, Altar can do the same (and better with the Curse), but Expand provides additional utility in letting you trash into Province, among other things.

Again, yes, Expand is not great.  But it isn't Scout-tier.

Except Expand doesn't have a sum of parts to be better than.  All it grants is a little flexibility that can hardly ever justify buying it over a Gold.  There are times I'd pay $4 or $5 for one or two things Expand can do (and more), but there's no way I'd pay $7 to have all of them (and no more).  If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.

2154
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:48:44 pm »
I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

If you disregard Expand on every board because you think it's the Scout of TfB cards, you can expect to lose a lot of games.

I doubt it...  Expand loses games.

2155
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:31:29 pm »
Also, Expand sucks.

But it is strictly better than remodel

Not really, because you have to pay way more than it's worth and you're probably going to use it as a Remodel more often than not anyway.

2156
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:30:44 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.

Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark, though.  None of those cards can do what Masquerade is good at, though Ambassador is a close call - all it's missing is a two-card draw to filter through stuff.  And Ambassador is a strong $3 card.  Mine costs $5, and is usually sort of weak - mind you, Expand costs $7.

Mine is a lot better than Expand if you want treasure -> treasure.  There is no reason you'd want Expand if Mine is on the board for this, and "Mine might not be on the board" doesn't make Expand not suck.  Similarly, Rebuild blows Expand out of the water if you're going for VP - it's non-terminal, and it finds the VP for you (unless you drew them all, but ok).  Want to trash junk cards?  Altar still costs less, ties when trashing Estates, and is strictly better at trashing coppers and curses - like, by a lot.  Half the time, Expand is just a regrettable Upgrade in my hand that should've been a Gold.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

2157
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 09:06:00 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

2158
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 08:13:28 pm »
So KC KC Bridge Bridge Highway, draw KC Upgrade, KC Upgrade to get three Provinces

Oh, right.  That's the upside.  You can draw cards with the Highway without devaluing too many times.

2159
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 08:06:10 pm »
Oh, I missed the first Highway on the list. My bad.

But KC-Highway only reduces by 1.

Ugh, it's worded like that, isn't it?  :(

Ok, they are all bridges then.  I just don't like terminals if I don't have to use them.  :(

Also, Expand sucks.

2160
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 08:00:45 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.
No. You see, you can't upgrade any of the other ones into a province.

What, your KC KC Highway Highway Bridge engine is acting up again?

Yes, because there isn't an Upgrade.

Ok, so it probably should have been Highway, KC-KC-Highway-Bridge-Upgrade.  My bad.

Expand still sucks.

That doesn't work :P. Only makes Provinces cost 4

1x Highway, then 3x Highway and 3x Bridge, followed by 3x Upgrade.  Provinces now cost 1, everything else now costs 0.  Unless it's a Colony game, but then you just need your last KC to hit a Bridge or Highway instead.

2161
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 07:53:01 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.
No. You see, you can't upgrade any of the other ones into a province.

What, your KC KC Highway Highway Bridge engine is acting up again?

Yes, because there isn't an Upgrade.

Ok, so it probably should have been Highway, KC-KC-Highway-Bridge-Upgrade.  My bad.

Expand still sucks.

2162
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 07:48:11 pm »
No you can't!

Yes they can.
No. You see, you can't upgrade any of the other ones into a province.

What, your KC KC Highway Highway Bridge engine is acting up again?

2163
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 06:31:47 pm »

2164
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 01:58:02 pm »

2165
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 01:07:16 pm »

2166
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 03, 2014, 08:21:28 pm »
Pedant
Cost: 4
Action-Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player must give a working definition of a thing of your choice.  If the rigor of the given definition does not unanimously satisfy the experts at f.ds, that player gains a Curse (and presumably doesn't deserve to live).

2167
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 03, 2014, 10:31:13 am »


KC KC Procession Rats.

or

KC KC Scout Scout Scout

2168
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 01, 2014, 05:50:50 pm »
F sharp or G flat (which are different notes here!)
They are always different notes.

I had a hard time recently explaining to someone why you would ever want a Cb.
Really? Isn't that like the most basic thing in music theory?

Not everyone geeks out over theory, or even plays a musical instrument more than twice in the fourth grade, or edge cases people on the internet as a hobby.  A lot of people only know that there is this notation, and that putting a sharp or flat on a white note gets you the black note next to it, and this is a good thing because the C scale
But knowing what a scale is already requires deeper understanding of music theory than knowing why you sometimes want a Cb.

Sure, if you're a relentless internet pedant.
Even if you're not, how can you know what a scale is without knowing why you sometimes want a Cb?

Because it's Joy To The World.  An eight-year-old can sing it within a reasonable accuracy tolerance by most standards.

2169
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 01, 2014, 05:45:47 pm »
F sharp or G flat (which are different notes here!)
They are always different notes.

I had a hard time recently explaining to someone why you would ever want a Cb.
Really? Isn't that like the most basic thing in music theory?

Not everyone geeks out over theory, or even plays a musical instrument more than twice in the fourth grade, or edge cases people on the internet as a hobby.  A lot of people only know that there is this notation, and that putting a sharp or flat on a white note gets you the black note next to it, and this is a good thing because the C scale
But knowing what a scale is already requires deeper understanding of music theory than knowing why you sometimes want a Cb.

Sure, if you're a relentless internet pedant.

2170
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 01, 2014, 03:22:42 pm »
F sharp or G flat (which are different notes here!)
They are always different notes.

I had a hard time recently explaining to someone why you would ever want a Cb.
Really? Isn't that like the most basic thing in music theory?

Not everyone geeks out over theory, or even plays a musical instrument more than twice in the fourth grade, or edge cases people on the internet as a hobby.  A lot of people only know that there is this notation, and that putting a sharp or flat on a white note gets you the black note next to it, and this is a good thing because the C scale sounds nice and all white notes would be disorienting anyway.  It's not the worst thing someone could be.

2171
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 01, 2014, 03:14:46 pm »
F sharp or G flat (which are different notes here!)
They are always different notes.

I had a hard time recently explaining to someone why you would ever want a Cb.

It's close enough to a G quadruple sharp for jazz...

2172
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 01, 2014, 01:50:43 pm »
Pianos are slightly out of tune because it is literally impossible to be in tune.  A pure major 3rd interval is multiplying the frequency by 1.25.  Three thirds should take you to an octave, right?  1.25^3 = 1.953125.  All the notes of a piano are off because of that.

There is such a thing as 2^(1/12), though...

2173
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: May 30, 2014, 01:33:06 am »
Pretty sure I can win every time just by naming 100 numbers......at no point does it say they have to be the ones at the beginning....

Unfortunately it is not yet proven that pi contains all sequences of digits.
Just wondering, are there numbers that have been proven to be normal? Is normal the right term here?

And although it has not been proven, it is considered exceedingly likely, yes? (not that you can use that for anything of course)

It's easy to make numbers like that just by choosing the digits as you go along, but I have no idea if any famous or typically encountered numbers are like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champernowne_constant

That's one example of such a number, but it's not like sqrt(3) or e or pi have the property (that I know of).  It's not something I know a lot about, but basically you can build a number to be like that, but it's hard for me to say whether your "favorite" numbers like e, pi, or sin(1) have the property we're looking for.  Someone might be able to answer that more complicated question, but this one is a bit more down-to-earth.  (And apparently the constant in this article has some long-term stability in how often strings occur beyond the original question, so I guess that's nice).

2174
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: May 29, 2014, 07:56:36 pm »
Pretty sure I can win every time just by naming 100 numbers......at no point does it say they have to be the ones at the beginning....

Unfortunately it is not yet proven that pi contains all sequences of digits.
Just wondering, are there numbers that have been proven to be normal? Is normal the right term here?

And although it has not been proven, it is considered exceedingly likely, yes? (not that you can use that for anything of course)

It's easy to make numbers like that just by choosing the digits as you go along, but I have no idea if any famous or typically encountered numbers are like that.

2175
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: May 29, 2014, 04:50:02 pm »
He could name "0" 100 times and be right.  There are 100 zeros.

So "until you name one incorrectly" means until you feel like not saying whole numbers 0-9 anymore? :-/

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