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Messages - Minotaur

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2126
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 17, 2014, 06:56:26 pm »
Obfuscator
Action-Attack-Victory
Cost: $5

+$2
Each other player sets aside the top three cards of their deck face down on their Obfuscation mat.

Setup:  Cards on a player's Obfuscation mat are shuffled back into their deck any time a reshuffle is caused by something other than Obfuscator setting aside cards.  At the end of the game, the cards on the mat are counted before returning to the player's deck.

-------------------------

1 VP for each 5 cards on the Obfuscation mat of the player to your left at the time those cards are counted.

2127
Dominion Articles / Re: Squire
« on: June 17, 2014, 05:12:07 pm »
About trash-to-gain-attack:  Sure, you wouldn't buy a trasher and a Squire *just* to get an attack card.  But Squire is still Squire, and you probably wanted to have a trasher anyway.  In just about any TfB game, your Squire is both a good target *and* a nice way to prevent yourself from running your deck dry of Treasure cards - this is especially something that needs careful attention in Bishop games.  Another plus for Bishop games is that you might be able to trash your Squire on another player's turn (if it's a good idea given the circumstances).

This card does almost everything Pawn does - the only thing it can't do is the +card, and it can't do +action +buy together - big deal.  It's hard to justify Pawn against a Squire, unless you're playing with KC or something, and then it's a better last-resort target.

2128
Dominion Articles / Re: Count
« on: June 17, 2014, 04:52:27 pm »
This should be in the wiki.  Maybe it should be edited for length, but a I agree with most of this post, and a too-long post that's informative would be better than what's there now.  I might just edit out the prologue about how new and exiting Dark Ages is/was, though :-D .  I don't know exactly what the policies or courtesy for edits is.  But I looked at the page the other day, and I wanted to say a lot of what was already in this post.  So I think it's worth a necro to suggest this for the wiki.

(However, the on-buy "penalty" of Mandarin is actually pretty good if you have Gold-Silver or Gold-Gold-Silver+buy.  Buying Mandarin with 3 Copper 1 Silver can be pretty meh.  A Mandarin bought with the right coins can be as good as a Count in some circumstances, but I agree that Count is generically better.)

2129
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 17, 2014, 04:27:58 pm »

2130
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 17, 2014, 04:24:01 pm »
Salvager/Forager?

EDIT: nvm, saw the link.  I was close though!

I hate it when I quote someone to say something to them, then suddenly in the reply quote they edited the post...

Socially awkward penguin.  It's ok - I derped first.

2131
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 17, 2014, 04:03:10 pm »


From GendoIkari

Salvager/Forager?

EDIT: nvm, saw the link.  I was close though!

2132
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 16, 2014, 10:36:08 am »
Iron Throne
Cost: $5

You may play an Action card from your hand twice.  If you do, each other player chooses to either discard two cards or gain a Curse.

------------------------------------------

Setup:  Each player who loses this game dies.

Iron Throne
$5 Action

You may play a card from your hand twice. If you do, if it's an...
Action card, +1 action
Treasure card, +$1
Victory card, +1 card

Iron Bank
$10 Action/Treasure

+1$ per Treasure card you have in play
+1 action per Action card you have in play
+1 card per Victory card you have in play

Iron Prize
$0* Action - Prize

Each opponent reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes one of the revealed cards costing up to $6 that you choose. Gain a card costing up to $6 that shares a type with one of the trashed cards. If it is an
Action card, +2 Actions
Treasure card, +2 coins
Victory card, +2 cards

(This is not in the supply)

Iron Island
Cost: $5
Action-Victory

Place this card and a card from your hand on your Island mat face up.  If the other card is a(n):

Action card, +2 actions
Treasure card, +$2
Victory card, +2 cards

(Cards on your Island mat return to your deck at the end of the game)

------------------------------

2 VP

2133
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 13, 2014, 10:30:44 pm »
Iron Throne
Cost: $5

You may play an Action card from your hand twice.  If you do, each other player chooses to either discard two cards or gain a Curse.

------------------------------------------

Setup:  Each player who loses this game dies.

Iron Throne
$5 Action

You may play a card from your hand twice. If you do, if it's an...
Action card, +1 action
Treasure card, +$1
Victory card, +1 card

Nobles and Great Halls, away!  Also, is this a Black Market variant, i.e., you can play treasures during your Action phase and bypass Tactician downsides?  Is it also possible to play pure Victory cards, so that they just go into play and say hi?

2134
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 13, 2014, 04:22:00 pm »
Game of Thrones
Cost: $4

If there are other cards in play, +1 card, +1 action.  (Note:  This is to prevent the person playing this card from protecting all their good actions by playing them.)

Otherwise:  Trash this card.  Each player counts their hand, discards it, and shuffles their discard pile into their deck, and then reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal an Action card that is not a Game of Thrones, and then trashes it.  Each player who does so may throw up a little.  Each player then draws as many cards as they previously had in hand.

2135
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 13, 2014, 03:42:14 pm »
Iron Throne
Cost: $5

You may play an Action card from your hand twice.  If you do, each other player chooses to either discard two cards or gain a Curse.

------------------------------------------

Setup:  Each player who loses this game dies.

2136
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 13, 2014, 02:42:09 pm »
Varys

Ok, I Googled, and that's the spelling of the Game of Thrones dude I was thinking of.  Yes.

2137
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 12, 2014, 03:45:54 pm »
Beware, the Prince of the Advisor.



Cannot unsee Joffrey and Varus.

2138
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 11, 2014, 05:10:02 am »
Expand is not as bad as Scout.  I guess the biggest thing I've learned about it here is that its strongest use case is probably as a terminal Gold +buy when nothing else is available.

It seems like almost every time one would get an Expand, you'd be at least as happy picking up a Graverobber, Rebuild, Remodel, Wharf, or just a Gold - but only the last of these is always on the board.

It isn't that great at anything that it does.  It's just an overpriced substitute for a lot of different things on most boards.  So I overstated its badness, but "anything you can do we can do better" to me seems to describe most Expand play in practice.
Well, anything that Jack of all Trades does, Squire, Spy, Watchtower and Chapel can do better. JoaT isn't good because it gains silver, or because it self-Spies, or because it draws up to 5, or because it trashes a non-Treasure card, but because it does all of them. Similarly, Expand is good because it's much more versatile than any of the large number of cards that do something better that Expand does.

Jack is good because it does all of those things in the same turn.  Getting a Silver AND trashing an Estate/Curse AND self-spying AND drawing a card is a lot better than the case where you have to pick just one.  Jack wouldn't be that great if you had to pick just one every time - actually, it would suck pretty hard.  Expand makes you pick just one.  If Expand let you trash 2-3 cards and gain one costing up to $3 more for each trashed, then that would be a whole other story...
Then compare it to Steward or Count.

Steward and Count don't whiff nearly as often, and aren't overpriced for what they do.  And Count is a lot more flexible than Expand - arguably, so is Steward.

(Edit: Steward is sort of overpriced for doing just one thing - Chapel, Duchess, and Moat cost $2.  Note that Chapel is "underpriced" at $2, or at least "the best card in the game", and you often only need to trash two cards in a turn anyway - in other words, Steward is a great first-shuffle buy that turns into +2 cards or a terminal Silver when its job is done. Not only is Steward is super-flexible, but the difference between costs of $2 and $3 is minuscule compared to the $5-$7 difference, and Steward is much more flexible than Expand.  Except for when the junkers are just that strong and you have 3-4 players, you're going to draw $3 and one buy much more often than $2 and one buy anyway, and you wouldn't trypically spend an extra buy on Steward, either, because it's kind of late by then.)

Anyway, I gave Expand a little bit of credit, and I still think it's mostly bad, but it can do a job sub-optimally in a pinch, but... that's about it.

2139
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 11, 2014, 04:56:09 am »
Expand is not as bad as Scout.  I guess the biggest thing I've learned about it here is that its strongest use case is probably as a terminal Gold +buy when nothing else is available.

It seems like almost every time one would get an Expand, you'd be at least as happy picking up a Graverobber, Rebuild, Remodel, Wharf, or just a Gold - but only the last of these is always on the board.

It isn't that great at anything that it does.  It's just an overpriced substitute for a lot of different things on most boards.  So I overstated its badness, but "anything you can do we can do better" to me seems to describe most Expand play in practice.
Well, anything that Jack of all Trades does, Squire, Spy, Watchtower and Chapel can do better. JoaT isn't good because it gains silver, or because it self-Spies, or because it draws up to 5, or because it trashes a non-Treasure card, but because it does all of them. Similarly, Expand is good because it's much more versatile than any of the large number of cards that do something better that Expand does.

Jack is good because it does all of those things in the same turn.  Getting a Silver AND trashing an Estate/Curse AND self-spying AND drawing a card is a lot better than the case where you have to pick just one.  Jack wouldn't be that great if you had to pick just one every time - actually, it would suck pretty hard.  Expand makes you pick just one.  If Expand let you trash 2-3 cards and gain one costing up to $3 more for each trashed, then that would be a whole other story...

2140
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 10, 2014, 10:51:18 pm »
Expand is not as bad as Scout.  I guess the biggest thing I've learned about it here is that its strongest use case is probably as a terminal Gold +buy when nothing else is available.

It seems like almost every time one would get an Expand, you'd be at least as happy picking up a Graverobber, Rebuild, Remodel, Wharf, or just a Gold - but only the last of these is always on the board.

It isn't that great at anything that it does.  It's just an overpriced substitute for a lot of different things on most boards.  So I overstated its badness, but "anything you can do we can do better" to me seems to describe most Expand play in practice.

2141
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 09, 2014, 09:32:48 pm »
^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.
I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

Forge is a *lot* better than Expand at dealing with junk, and it's also better at turning mediocre cards into Provinces.  It whiffs as much as Expand does, in my experience, but at least its "successes" aren't just a Remodel you overpaid for half the time.  I might be able to Expand a $5 action into a Province, but then I might as well have the Gold I could've bought in my hand instead and play that action... And if I'm Expanding a Silver, Mine would be better... and if I'm expanding a Duchy, Rebuild is better... And if I want to clean up junk one piece per action, Altar is a lot better.  It's like the dim-witted big brother of Band of Misfits with a limp.  You'd probably have to be very careful with your deck composition not to walk into tons of hands where Expand is just a Remodel or a gimped $5 card.  Both Expand and Gold add $3 of value to your deck, but for me Expand is a lot more likely to whiff than a Gold - I need a big money hand with no +buy for that to happen, usually.

Really the main circumstance for Expand to be an automatic must-buy is if either Peddler or cost reduction engines are on the board.  (Or if it's the only trasher and I'm desperate)

I don't know if I'd ever get Bank in a Province game unless I could reasonably expect to draw $13 or more with a +buy.  At least that's sometimes doable.  If there's no +Buy or no way to build a big hand, I'm skipping it for Gold.

Seriously, I linked logs to you a while back.  Expand is better than you think and it's clear that you just don't know how to play with it.


Here, have another log where Stef uses Expand and Remodel.  Note that he uses Expand for the following:

Estate->Duchy
Watchtower->Gold
Saboteur->Province

No other card could have done all of those -- flexibility helps.

Mercenary and Mint were the two trashers in game one... One player used it as a Graverobber, and the other player could've done as well or better with a Gold and an Upgrade instead of two Expands.

Game 2 I guess is legitimate, but you could also probably find games where Stef won buying Scout, but no one comes running in to defend Scout, either.  In the second game, Stef had a Native Village megaturn with no +buy on the board, or else I doubt Expand would've been worth it.  A single +buy on the whole board probably would have made Gold better than Expand.

I just don't see how the wiki can say that Expand is usually bad, and you can agree that it's a sub-par card, and it's ok for everyone to bash on Scout all day, but when I post one meme about Expand, suddenly I'm confronted with three pages of Captain Edge Case.  So the wiki writer claims Expand is bad 2/3 of the time, and Scout is probably bad 80-90% of the time... What's the cutoff for being allowed to make a joke?

2142
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 09, 2014, 09:39:48 am »
Aside from the mint/mine joke here; what's the other part of the joke? Why would you trash your wallet upon meeting someone who is mint or mine?

I'm guessing it's because he "gained" her and his wallet was in play...

2143
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 09, 2014, 09:26:12 am »
Also because someone else would inevitably do it anyway:



Why post the same thing again?

2144
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 08, 2014, 05:46:28 am »
^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.
I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

Forge is a *lot* better than Expand at dealing with junk, and it's also better at turning mediocre cards into Provinces.  It whiffs as much as Expand does, in my experience, but at least its "successes" aren't just a Remodel you overpaid for half the time.  I might be able to Expand a $5 action into a Province, but then I might as well have the Gold I could've bought in my hand instead and play that action... And if I'm Expanding a Silver, Mine would be better... and if I'm expanding a Duchy, Rebuild is better... And if I want to clean up junk one piece per action, Altar is a lot better.  It's like the dim-witted big brother of Band of Misfits with a limp.  You'd probably have to be very careful with your deck composition not to walk into tons of hands where Expand is just a Remodel or a gimped $5 card.  Both Expand and Gold add $3 of value to your deck, but for me Expand is a lot more likely to whiff than a Gold - I need a big money hand with no +buy for that to happen, usually.

Really the main circumstance for Expand to be an automatic must-buy is if either Peddler or cost reduction engines are on the board.  (Or if it's the only trasher and I'm desperate)

I don't know if I'd ever get Bank in a Province game unless I could reasonably expect to draw $13 or more with a +buy.  At least that's sometimes doable.  If there's no +Buy or no way to build a big hand, I'm skipping it for Gold.

2145
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 08, 2014, 05:30:13 am »

2146
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 06, 2014, 12:42:23 am »
^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.
I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

2147
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: June 05, 2014, 08:32:35 pm »
^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

2148
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 05, 2014, 03:37:05 pm »
I was thinking about Expand.  It's sort of like Band of Misfits - the $7 TfB version.  Only it does really lousy versions of a bunch of $5 cards...  And is priced above a Gold.  $7 for a card that can be Mine or Rebuild or Salvager or Trading Post would be a whole other ball game than Expand.

I think you are severely underestimating the price of versatility.  Consider Steward, a very strong card at $3, often purchased for $4 in a Silver/Steward opening.  Yet each of its options is worth less than $2, possibly as little as $1.

In some sense, Steward is a *lot* more versatile than Expand.  In fact, I'd rather draw Steward with two Golds and two Provinces than an Expand precisely because of this...

EDIT:  The Wiki article on Expand isn't all that flattering, either.  I really didn't think this card was highly regarded, overall...  http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Expand

2149
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 05, 2014, 12:49:23 pm »
I was thinking about Expand.  It's sort of like Band of Misfits - the $7 TfB version.  Only it does really lousy versions of a bunch of $5 cards...  And is priced above a Gold.  $7 for a card that can be Mine or Rebuild or Salvager or Trading Post would be a whole other ball game than Expand.

2150
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 04, 2014, 11:55:27 pm »
I've regretted getting Expand just about every time I've gotten it.  I guess if it's the only TfB, then it might be good for getting rid of Estates, but if anything else can either sift or destroy them, then that only leaves cannibalizing Duchies and $5 actions at the end of the game, and I usually go for Golds when I have $6 unless it's something great like Grand Market or Goons I'm looking at, or Adventurer after my Coppers have mostly been Moneylendered or some such.

I didn't think the image was going to be controversial.  I honestly find myself wishing I had one or two of the cards on the right instead of Expand to go for just about every time it's on the board.

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