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Messages - markusin

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3701
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: July 26, 2013, 07:51:03 am »
Masquerade In Blood
Action - $3
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) reveals a card in their hand and decides whether the player to their left discards the revealed card or trashes it.

And it's not even considered an attack card.
"I reveal an Estate and choose that the player to my left trashes this Estate!"
Don't you know, players are only able to trash or discard their own cards. I just suck at wording Dominion card. I just didn't want to say "the player to their left" twice in the same sentence.

3702
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: July 24, 2013, 06:36:10 pm »
Masquerade In Blood
Action - $3
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) reveals a card in their hand and decides whether the player to their left discards the revealed card or trashes it.

And it's not even considered an attack card.

3703
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 22, 2013, 10:14:28 pm »
My first guess was Doctor. I'll have to stick with that guess until the end.
I totally called it.

3704
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Least Ignorable Card
« on: July 21, 2013, 07:24:52 pm »
Doesn't Tournament become weaker in Colony games? That being said, on a non-Colony board, I only remember ignoring Tournament once and winning; I went for Tunnels with both Cartographer and Cellar and just rushed for Provinces. Never had time for the Tournament.

My guess is that the Rebuild is the least ignorable card, but then again it also gets weaker in Colony games, so long as there is a good engine on the board.

3705
I forgot to say this: It's great that you went out of your way to make this. Awesome work, Andrew Iannaccone.

3706
So long as a model helps predict outcomes given inputs and makes sense, it's doing what it's supposed to.

3707
If what WW is true, that skill is not normally distributed, then there is little that can be done to accurately model win rates without doing a complete overhaul of the rating system. I don't know much about statistical analysis, but this question has me thinking.

The thing about Dominion is that there is so much inherent randomness, and that randomness is assumed to fit into a normal distribution, but then the skill is also assumed to be normally distributed. Is that correct? Think of games that are almost all pure skill or strength, like Starcraft or arm-wrestling. In those games, a player flat out wins against a much weaker player, barring exceptional circumstances (sickness maybe?). The players of games like that have to be very close in skill for there to even be a contest. So for those games, mu is much more informative about who will win that sigma. Things get complicated because skill/strength clearly decreases without continuous practice/training, so some sort of rating drift seems appropriate.

The normal distribution just seems more convenient than anything else. Both randomness and rating drift can be lumped into sigma, and that seems less controversial that the alternatives like decreasing mu or whatever. Applying another model would just be guesswork without empirical data, and so far the normal distribution doesn't seem to be THAT off. I think the normal distribution mainly has problems with predicting the win rate when the rating gap gets too large.

3708
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 19, 2013, 08:04:53 pm »
91.   Moat
Yeah, I think moat is good, even in 2 player. I mean, it's not really about the reaction. Not totally, anyway. Drawing two cards isn't so bad. You really can make an engine out of villages and these, if you have enough support (generally strong trashing). Okay, so I mean, it's not the best thing ever, but it only costs 2, which is pretty good value. And then that defense. I mean, attacks are just pretty strong in a lot of cases, and being able to stop a good percentage, even if it's a minority, is just nice. It's a nice engine card.

I knew you'd declare Moat a good engine card. I've been impressed a few times by Moat-heavy engines. Being able to defend against attacks in the most overt way possible is a neat reward for having faith in the little thing.

Also, Market in the middle: Coincidence?

3709
If only we had used the term "strictly stronger" instead of "strictly better". To me, "better" in the "strictest" sense means it always gives a greater contribution to your victory than what you are comparing it to. Problem is, Dominion is so full of edge cases (and any edge cases, no matter how hypothetical they seem to be, can be considered valid), that you're bound to find one where one "stronger" card leads to a loss where the "weaker" card would have resulted in a win. "Stronger" suggests the possibility of backfire, say with Possession.

Consider this card:
"Strictly Better" Monument
Action-$4
+$2
+2VP

If you count mind games as valid edge cases (Say, the one proposed for Golem-plays-Adventurer-before-Poor-House edge case in the memes thread), then even this card might not be "strictly better" than monument. Imagine a 2p game where there are only two Provinces left and p1 is behind by 1 point and knows that he/she cannot buy a Province next turn. p1 wants p2 to observe PPR and buy duchy instead of province on p2's next turn. If p1 plays regular Monument and buys Duchy, then p2 can equalize the score by following PPR and buying Duchy. If p1 plays "Strictly Better" Monument and buys Duchy, p2 would now still be losing by 1 point if they bought Duchy on his/her turn, so they'd be more inclined to break PPR and buy Province. Then p2 can rejoice when p1 cannot buy the last Province on the next turn.

So yeah, if that edge case is valid, then we've stripped the term "strictly better" of all meaning by defining it as meaning perfectly better in all situations, at least in Dominion.

3710
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fixing Dominion
« on: July 15, 2013, 07:35:59 am »
Tribute? Maybe try

Tribute - Action - $5
The player to your left reveals then discards the top 2 cards of his deck. For each differently named card revealed, if it is an… Action Card; +2 Actions; Treasure Card; +$2; Victory Card; +2 Cards. If a duplicate is revealed, then if it is an...
Action Card; +1 Actions; Treasure Card; +$1; Victory Card; +1 Card.

Too Wordy?

3711
Though a recent addition to the world of Dominion, I appreciate the existence of Masterpiece. It's a go-to card for when you anticipate a slog and when you just want to power through your opponents' junkers, all without the weirdness of Trader.

Also, I gotta give the nod to Horse Traders. Even without the reaction, the card is pretty nice to have in a fair amount of situations. The reaction gives you a different way to defend against attacks, especially against the attacks that only take effect when you have 5 or more cards.

3712
I agree that +Buy and +$ are great, but the lack of those wouldn't have ruined my enjoyment of the game. Additional cards and actions are kind of key in this game, and I probably would have lost interest if I didn't have those.

If there were never attacks or other interaction, then I don't think we'd have noticed. It definitely would have added more weight to the criticism that Dominion is just multiplayer solitaire, but I don't think it would diminish the game.

Trashing is interesting. It is such an integral part of the game that when I play other deckbuilders, like Legendary, one of the first thing I do is identify any way to remove chaff and streamline my deck. But you know, if Dominion never had any trashers, I don't think I would have even noticed it wasn't there. I'd continue playing with my 7 Coppers and 3 Estates and base my strategy around them being there. Eventually, a future expansion or some other deckbuilding game would introduce it, and it would have been quite the "ah-ha" moment.

Yeah I never had that "ah-ha" moment about trashing just by playing the base set. I was one of those people who thought "Chapel? I guess it's there to trash curses, but wow it trashes up to 4 and still costs only $2 like cellar? I guess pure trashing isn't so great". In fact, I rarely bought Moneylender, thinking "trashing Coppers? It's a Trap!" I actually have no idea when I discovered the power of trashing Coppers and Estates, but it was before I started playing on Isotropic.

Lack of +2 actions? Village mostly lead to "village idiot" situations. I guess I was more the big money player who got annoyed by those 10 card Village/Smithy/Laboratory chains. I liked +cards and +$ but was really a fan of +Buy , and was the most likely to buy Council Room. I also defended Gardens a lot, and desperately wanted it to ultimately be good (I also defended Chancellor, explaining to the others why you'd ever want one). Gosh, I must have really sucked.

So how did Gardens affect the rest of you? It was really the card that made me eager to see what more Dominion had in store.

3713
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: July 11, 2013, 06:47:39 pm »
"OPEN STONEMASON

6 IS A GOOD NUMBER"

Of course. Gotta load up on those advisors

I thought it meant get 6 stonemasons in the first two turns by using 4/4 on a Baker board.

I was hoping that wasn't the case, although it sounds more like Edge-Case Wolf, to which I'd say "Stonemason, Poor House, and Vineyard?".

Anyway...

3714
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ranking the Expansions
« on: July 10, 2013, 09:51:16 pm »
A lot of people dislike Hunting Party because it is is strong in a way that deliberately encourages straightforward strategies that you can't add anything to. HP is amazing when you have very little variety in your deck, like the standard HP+X deck with copper, silver, gold, a terminal silver or equivalent, and as many HPs as you can get. And it's fairly difficult to add creativity to this, since every unique card you add makes the HP stack more likely to break down.

Ironic, since it's a Cornucopia card. You realize how much variety hurts Hunting Party when you play with in in Dark Ages heavy kingdoms.

About attacks, I don't think attacks are necessarily bad. You ignore cards like Witch, Mountebank, Minion, ambassador, and Soothsayer at your own peril. A Silver/Silver opening gives you a good chance of getting to $5 reasonably early. Things don't always work out that way though. It's cool when you can ignore the attacks.

However, some attacks are a lot more swingy. Swindler in particular comes to mind. You can have a match where everyone opens with Swindler-X, but then you have one player in a much better than another player for no reason other than luck. You might even lose the Swindler to another Swindler, but then when you buy it back your adversaries have a bunch of Gold or Maybe even Provinces to act as a deterrent. I give the nod to secret chamber for actually being an effective defense against Swindler.

3715
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: July 10, 2013, 09:39:14 pm »
"OPEN STONEMASON

6 IS A GOOD NUMBER"

Of course. Gotta load up on those advisors

3716
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ranking the Expansions
« on: July 09, 2013, 08:27:19 pm »
I really wanted something like this. Here goes:

Set {Yeah!/Boo!}

Promo {Black Market/Governor}
Base Set {Laboratory/Spy}
Intrigue {Steward/Swindler}
Seaside {Lookout/Native Village}
Alchemy {Apothecary/Familiar}
Prosperity {Bank/Peddler}
Cornucopia {Horn Of Plenty/Farming Village (Well, it's my least favourite anyway)}
Hinterlands {Highway/Scheme}
Dark Ages {Mystic/Urchin-Mercenary}
Guilds {Stonemason/Soothsayer}

3717
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 08, 2013, 07:13:33 pm »
Yes, you often want +buy, but rarely more than one, maximum two.

You're completely ignoring one of the most important aspects of having lots of buys: end-game control. Having lots of buys restricts your opponent's options as there'll always be the lingering threat of you ending the game. Conversely, if I know you only have 2 or 3 buys, I can keep building a stronger and stronger deck until the piles are dangerously comfortably low.

You don't need to exercise all your options all the time to make having them a big boon.

Also, Worker's bonus becomes more and more important over the course of the game, whereas Wandering and Farming become weaker as your deck quality improves and you draw ever larger number of cards. So like early trashing, WV is an excellent long-term investment.

This. Having surplus buys allows for rather diabolical plays. If I have $16 and 2 buys during my buy phase, I can go for a double Province turn. Double Province turns are something I'd expect to find on many "favourite things about Dominion" lists. But if instead I have $16 and 8 buys, I can now buy 8 estates (or maybe some other $2 card like Pawn or Crossroads). A move like that can potentially end a game that my opponent was trying to win with a megaturn but now ends in something like an 8-0 score in my favour. Any cantrip +buy card like Market is a good enabler for this kind of stuff. Speaking of Market, it hasn't shown up on this list yet.

I also think Forager's rank is too low. There are very few non-terminal trashers that trash from your hand. The notable ones are Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Apprentice, Rats and Counterfeit *Edit* and I guess Governor counts too. Non-terminal trashing is a powerful ability that really helps keep engine decks mostly clear of junk, and the junk happens to be rather good fuel for Forager in a deck with good draw. A Forager that generates +$1 or +$2 is only a bit worse than Junk Dealer, trading in the +card for +buy. However Forager only costs $3. And sometimes you really like having that +Buy.

3718
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 07, 2013, 10:52:16 pm »
Even if the extra actions are wasted, you still get the $5 lab effect on a $3 cost
If the extra actions are wasted, you get the $2 moat effect on a $3 cost.

But the actions aren't necessarily wasted, which is what makes Shanty Town viable (I agree with the rest of your post).

Well, not drawing any new actions with the +2 cards ain't so hot. Depending on your average coin per card, the Shanty Town might not have been better than Silver, but then neither would a Laboratory. The big thing about Lab and Shanty Town is that they cannot draw action cards dead, but Moat can. Of course, Shanty Town is unlikely to self chain like Lab does.

3719
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Ratings Protection: A Question
« on: July 07, 2013, 03:40:54 pm »
I'm conflicted on the matter of putting a minimum rating on games I host. My natural choice is to make my games open to all ranks and not crush the hearts of eager players by kicking them from the game due to their low rank. I have all the expansions and so by hosting games I guess I contribute to the overall user experience. I don't mind losing a whole bunch of points on a loss to a low ranked player. The problem is the games themselves are often not as fun when playing against weak opponents. I end up getting so many easy wins that way and makes me consider the option of having a minimum rating.

3720
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 07, 2013, 01:18:05 pm »
I have to wonder about the position of Shanty Town. It seems like many people on this site regard Shanty Town as roughly equal to or even slightly superior to vanilla village. I'm certainly less skilled than they, but I can't help but question this decision nonetheless. Shanty Town is an expensive necropolis unless it draws, but how often does it draw? Only if it is either the only action in hand or the last action in hand that you play. However, this brings up two thorny issues. First, if you have such a low action density that Shanty Town can normally be drawn without any actions, the likelihood of getting an action in the two cards you draw ought to be quite low, making the +2 actions a waste. And if you have terminal actions in your main hand, playing a +actions source followed by shanty town requires a pretty specific set-up. Shanty town, terminal, shanty town... and the end result is inferior to Village.

I wonder if people who like shanty town regard it as a lab variant instead of a village. It seems like that's the better way to regard it. In terms of engine enabling, typically the main purpose of a village, shanty town leaves much to be desired.

In my own ranking, I'm not sure I'd put it above Adventurer. Does anyone here understand it better?

Shanty Town is one of the weirder cards. You can be sure that every vanilla Village you gain adds reliability to your engine. Each Shanty Town also adds some reliability to your engine in the sense that you can play more terminal actions, but at the cost of potentially less card draw.

The way I see it, there are two types of collision with Shanty Town: collision with itself and collision with terminals. The collision with itself will definitely reduce the card draw, but you can play an extra terminal for every extra Shanty Town in hand without affecting the final handsize you'd have if there were only Shanty Towns in hand. Collision with other terminals also turns Shanty Town into a necropolis. You reduce Shanty Town collision by either buying less of them or by having a larger deck (often, the larger deck is thrust upon you by a junker). You reduce the terminal collision problem by having some other source of +actions (possibly making Shanty Town the best second village to have in the kingdom).

A Shanty Town that does end up drawing is pretty neat though. Even if the extra actions are wasted, you still get the $5 lab effect on a $3 cost, and you can always open with a $3. Shanty Town is at its best when it draws a terminal draw card with its +2 cards, since the terminal draw card won't draw anything dead. Then you can make use of the full +2 cards +2 actions. In general, Shanty Town is an okay village in draw decks, especially in ones that tend to overdraw

Though I like Shanty Town more than the vanilla Village, I think I'd still rank it a bit lower than Village (and I imagine many other players do too). The village works well in the *classic* engine that have heavily trimmed decks. Shanty Town is a card that gets better when your deck is not at the position you'd normally want it to be, which is what makes the card so intriguing.

3721
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ranking the Expansions
« on: July 06, 2013, 01:12:59 pm »
I'm not sure on what criteria I should rank these cards on. I'll just try to rank them by my favourites, but that's proven to be a challenge as well. I'll mention now that I'm not that much of an pure engine fanatic, and my favourite kinds of decks are ones that merge big money with engine.

10. Promos
9. Hinterlands
8. Prosperity
7. Alchemy
6. Seaside
5. Guilds
4. Base
3. Cornucopia
2. Intrigue
1. Dark Ages

10. Promos: I find most of these cards to be pretty stale, with the exception of Black Market. Funny story, there were a few IRL base only games where we used the blank cards as Black Markets, based solely on my description of the card. I forgot about the detail that it gives +2$ though. Playing as essentially a Ruined Market didn't stop it from being purchased though.

9. Hinterlands: I like the idea of on-gain effects, and you have cards like Haggler and Border Village can really give you a power trip as you gain all those cards. However, I have a hard time immersing myself into the world of Hinterlands. Actually, I really don't understand the world of Hinterlands much at all. I just know what's in there.

8. Prosperity: This really takes Dominion to another level. Overpowered Platinum, nasty Goons, shiny Grand Markets, and the King's Court itself. The cards don't tend to be too fancy, but they're solid. This set has the problem where getting the strong cards before your opponents often results in an unshakeable lead.
 
7. Alchemy: I'd probably put this one rank lower if I played with this set IRL. I imagine things get really slow. This set is full of things that look broken but usually aren't, like Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Golem, University, Apprentice, and Possession. But their cost and slowness brings their power to a fairly balanced level, so that's cool. Apothecary ain't too shabby either.

6. Seaside: This set is very solid in terms of the strength of the cards in it. Pirate Ship, Treasure Map, and Treasury are the only cards that really make me roll my eyes when I see them. One criticism I have to give it is how slow the powerful attackers make the game. games where Sea Hags, Ambassadors, and Ghost Ships duke it out can get dreadful. Luckily, you have cards like Wharf, Lookout, and Tactician that give you a way out.

5. Guilds: The coin tokens are another thing that can give you such a power trip, and many of the cards use it. This expansion does a lot to boost and help optimize the many familiar strategies with the transformation of spending power to coin tokens. The set also adds a few new, coin token specific strategies. The overpay mechanic turned out to be something that isn't too hard to wrap your head around either. Still, I can't help but feel that the set is a bit lacking on its own.

4. Base: Hey, This is what got me into Dominion in the first place. This set has some of the best cards, but also a lot of the worst cards. For such simplicity, the Base set just feels comfortable and familiar. Dominion games would start feeling empty without such classics as the Throne Room, the Militia, the Laboratory, the Witch, and the Chapel.

3. Cornucopia: The variety theme really works for me. I'm not so sure how good Tournament is for the game, but the other cards give you so much to do, and you have cards that reward you for the variety. There's also Hunting Party, which is just the magical card you always wanted in an engine. I do agree that the set has a high concentration of power cards. Things just get crazy in a Cornucopia heavy game.

2. Intrigue: Gosh, I'm starting to realize just how many of my favourite cards are in this set. I'd find myself really missing cards like Wishing Well, Upgrade, Bridge, Minion, Duke, the Dual-VP cards, and even Shanty Town if I had to stop playing Intrigue. Also, my all around favourite Dominion card, Steward, is in this set. It still has the same problem as the base set, where there are Witch Tier cards mixed with Scout Tier cards. There tends to be better synergy amonst the cards in this set, weak though some of them may be.

1. Dark Ages: I remember looking at the Dark Ages previews and thinking that this was going to be the best expansion. This expansion offers so many different strategies to try and so many combos/nombos to discover. The winning strategies are a lot less obvious than usual in Dark Ages. Overall, there's lots of fun to be had with powerful one-shots, Knight wars, Procession card climbs, Altar sacrifices, and more. Shelters are cool too, and help balance some of the power cards like Ambassador, Hunting Party, and most importantly Rebuild. I like how game warping Rebuild is though. It's the largest set, so it has an unfair advantage. The notable negatives of Dark Ages are the casual player unfriendliness, partly due to cards that actively hurt you when used incorrectly (Rats, Procession, Death Cart, Poor House, Wandering Minstrel) as due to cards that are highly situational.

3722
Dominion General Discussion / Re: WW's Power Rankings
« on: July 06, 2013, 11:03:02 am »
I don't get the whole Google+ thing. What happens if you try to get it without a Google+ account? Is logging in with a Gmail account supposed to be enough? I actually got the card, but barely remember setting up a Google+ account.

3723
It's even harder to remember them all off the top of your head. If you mention a knight's name, I'll know exactly which knight is being referred to, but if yopu asked me to name the ten knights I might fall short. Yesterday I forgot the name of the Gainer knight, Dame Natalie. Today, I forgot the name of the cantrip knight, Sir Bailey.

3724
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: July 04, 2013, 07:22:40 pm »

3725
"Sir, we've established a village on the borders of our territory."
"Hmm, we need someone to govern it. Better appoint a Margrave."

"Sir, we've established a village on the borders of our territory."
"Splendid! This calls for a tribute."

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