14901
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best Dominion Moments 2014
« on: September 04, 2014, 02:23:35 am »
I managed to Prince three Bureaucrats! Almost there!
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14902
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Discussion of whether specific Salvager features should be allowed
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:40:36 pm »what if there was an AI that played dominion really well?There is.
14903
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Schedule matches with f.ds just for fun
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:14:09 pm »are you fixing your sleep schedule by moving it forward?Yeah.
14904
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Discussion of whether specific Salvager features should be allowed
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:06:10 pm »But you get just "better" at Dominion with #vpoff, too. You get more better with #vpon.just "better," or "even more good" maybe.How am I supposed to say that then? Betterer?getting more better at Dominion,but not, apparently, getting better at grammar.
14905
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Schedule matches with f.ds just for fun
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:05:05 pm »Well, today I woke up 3 hours ago, and I'd like to wake up even later tomorrow, so if you're up late enough, then that's fine too.that's probably around the time i wake up. ~12:30so i have a lot of free time tomorrow (thursday). anyone want to play?I could play in the morning/early afternoon when I haven't gone to bed yet.
but how about 8+pm?
14906
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Schedule matches with f.ds just for fun
« on: September 03, 2014, 07:38:29 pm »so i have a lot of free time tomorrow (thursday). anyone want to play?I could play in the morning/early afternoon when I haven't gone to bed yet.
14907
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Discussion of whether specific Salvager features should be allowed
« on: September 03, 2014, 07:37:04 pm »How am I supposed to say that then? Betterer?getting more better at Dominion,but not, apparently, getting better at grammar.
14908
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Discussion of whether specific Salvager features should be allowed
« on: September 03, 2014, 07:30:13 pm »I like disabling point counter because you can't use it IRL and I like to play IRL a lot. All of this mental processing that seems to be so taxing on the rest of you isn't that big of a deal for me because I'm used to it, and I get to play at a high level when I play IRL. If I used the point counter all of the time when I played online, I'd get out of practice very quickly at doing these things.I'm not sure if that's actually true, though. I am very good at tracking the score. The reason why I prefer #vpon is not that I need it to know how many points each player has, because I would know that anyway. But with #vpoff, I would have to actually pay attention to it, and I don't have endless amounts of attention so that would have to mean paying less attention to the game itself, which would result in lower levels of play online — not the "accidentally ending the game on a loss" kind of lower levels of play, but the "spending coin tokens at wrong times" and "not noticing a potential 3-pile ending with Hunting Grounds and Doctor" kinds of lower levels of play. I think this also results in actually getting more better at Dominion, since every time you make a successful pro decision and win because of it or your opponent does and you lose, the next time the decision is available, it will be a lot easier to see the opportunity again. If you learn that making slightly better than average decisions wins games, then you'll be looking for those slightly better than average decisions in your following games as well.
14909
Dominion Articles / Re: Counting House
« on: September 03, 2014, 06:39:02 pm »+buysGood points. I added stuff about +buys, early greening and attacks. I already mentioned cards that topdeck Counting House, and I don't know anything about multiplayer so I'm not going to write about it.
early greening
strength vs attacks, junking, spies, saboteurs, pillage, militia
multiplayer attacks - unable to build conventional economy
anything that can put counting house on top of the deck - scavenger, royal seal, develop, herald
14910
Other Games / Re: MTG
« on: September 03, 2014, 09:10:52 am »
I play mostly Modern (I don't know anything about the format but I play a UR Ninja Faeries deck and it's been pretty successful so far) and limited on magic-league and casual constructed IRL, I think the block thing is interesting and the fetch land reprint isn't very. I used to play Legacy competitively IRL, but then I got perma-banned from MTGSuomi which was the best platform to be in the know about upcoming tournaments, and sold my deck.
14911
Dominion Articles / Re: Counting House
« on: September 03, 2014, 09:02:30 am »What do you think about Counting House in province games vs colony games?Oh, I thought I wrote that in the article. Apparently I erased the part and forgot to type it again. Yes, CH is definitely better in Colony games.
I think that boards that are conducive to CH strategies tend to work better on Colony Boards. The AI/Jog game was on a colony board. I recently played a game on a colony board where my opponent's CH strategy vs mountebank was a great idea and probably would have won had there been no trashing on the board. Basically, I think when you are going to have those 11 coppers in your deck (because of mountebank, for example) CH can be a terrific card. But when you only need to get 8, other strategies probably tend to be a bit faster and CH loses a lot of its value.
14912
Dominion League / Re: Standings & Results
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:59:54 am »
C4: awaclus 4 - 2 Burning Skull
14913
Dominion Articles / Counting House
« on: September 03, 2014, 06:41:15 am »
The old article is a bit outdated, so I feel like it's time to write a new article.
What is Counting House?
It's essentially a +X Cards effect. Only it draws from your discard pile instead of your deck, and it always draws Coppers. You probably already knew this, but I wanted to say it anyway, because it is easy to focus too much on the Copper part and forget about the part that actually increases your hand size.
When should you ignore Counting House?
Counting House is a card that's hard to utilize. As the old article mentions, just buying one in hopes of high +coins is going to fail in most decks — CH just isn't strong enough to be a big money enabler and in engines where you draw most of your deck anyway, it's not going to be of much use. In other words, you should never go for Counting House unless there is a particular reason why Counting House works on that board.
So, when is Counting House actually useful?
Counting House as a +$
This is bad in most decks, but there are some edge cases. With great support, such as Beggar or Candlestick Maker, a strategy centered around this can do well in an otherwise weak kingdom, but not if there are other decent options. Here's how you play it with CSM, and with Beggar, it's similar, but you don't need that many Beggars.
Another edge case is when you're getting hit by Copper junking attacks, such as Mountebank, and you can't deal with the junk otherwise. In this case, you definitely want the attack, and you probably want the Counting House later.
Non-terminal +buy can be excellent here, since it lets you buy extra Coppers and later, more green cards with your big Counting House turns. Terminal +buy is a lot worse, because you can't play both that and CH on the same turn without a splitter, and lining up the splitter, the +buy and the Counting House is difficult in a deck full of Copper.
These kinds of strategies are usually resilient to most attacks for obvious reasons, but you should watch out for Pillage and sometimes Enchantress. For the same reason why you're not too worried about junking, greening early is often a good idea in these games.
It's also usable in the Hunting Party stack (well, at least if the Hunting Party stack itself is better than other strategies on the board), where it guarantees a Province turn as long as you just have at least one Silver in your deck and are able to play enough HPs to discard your deck. The downside is that you don't get any other benefits, such as the +VP from Monument etc, and it's more expensive than many other alternatives for the terminal slot, but the upside is that you don't have to buy a Gold at all.
Counting House as a +Card
This has the potential to be extremely good. There are two ways to utilize this:
1) Taking Coppers from your discard pile, then triggering a reshuffle mid-turn. This greatly reduces the number of cards you have to draw with other cards when you're trying to draw your whole deck, so it can be useful when you're having trouble drawing your deck given the kingdom. It needs a payload that really makes it worth it, though, and it should be noted that if your engine relies on this, you can't, pardon the pun, count on being able to go off every turn, so either it needs to be a megaturn payload or you need lots and lots of time.
2) Actually taking advantage of the Coppers in your hand. The most effective thing is if you can discard the Coppers for some benefit, then draw them with Counting House, then discard them again for more benefit (repeat as many times as you have +actions available). For example, you can use Counting House with Cellar to draw cards from your deck, allowing you to build an engine with no other +card, or Secret Chamber to give you lots of coins, letting you use that as your payload. Storeroom is great here, since it does both.
Here, Copper might or might not be a good addition for your deck. If your engine is strong, you can power up your Secret Chamber-style payload by adding extra Coppers, and for the Cellar draw engine thing, you want to maintain a good balance between Coppers, Cellar variants, Counting Houses and splitters. But if your engine isn't too strong, then adding extra Coppers has the potential to make it not work. If you're using it for making the Coppers miss the mid-turn reshuffle, then Copper is obviously bad as the purpose of your CH is to get rid of the Copper anyway.
Militia makes the Cellar thing a lot more clumsy, and these kinds of engines are also more vulnerable to junking than engines usually are.
Counting House with Travelling Fair
This is a thing.
In general
Any strategy with Counting House in it becomes a lot better when you gain some control over when to draw your Counting House. Therefore, cards such as Watchtower, Inn, Scheme and Haven are good in Counting House decks. Colony games are usually more favorable for CH strategies, since they benefit from longer games.
So, that's it.
What is Counting House?
It's essentially a +X Cards effect. Only it draws from your discard pile instead of your deck, and it always draws Coppers. You probably already knew this, but I wanted to say it anyway, because it is easy to focus too much on the Copper part and forget about the part that actually increases your hand size.
When should you ignore Counting House?
Counting House is a card that's hard to utilize. As the old article mentions, just buying one in hopes of high +coins is going to fail in most decks — CH just isn't strong enough to be a big money enabler and in engines where you draw most of your deck anyway, it's not going to be of much use. In other words, you should never go for Counting House unless there is a particular reason why Counting House works on that board.
So, when is Counting House actually useful?
Counting House as a +$
This is bad in most decks, but there are some edge cases. With great support, such as Beggar or Candlestick Maker, a strategy centered around this can do well in an otherwise weak kingdom, but not if there are other decent options. Here's how you play it with CSM, and with Beggar, it's similar, but you don't need that many Beggars.
Another edge case is when you're getting hit by Copper junking attacks, such as Mountebank, and you can't deal with the junk otherwise. In this case, you definitely want the attack, and you probably want the Counting House later.
Non-terminal +buy can be excellent here, since it lets you buy extra Coppers and later, more green cards with your big Counting House turns. Terminal +buy is a lot worse, because you can't play both that and CH on the same turn without a splitter, and lining up the splitter, the +buy and the Counting House is difficult in a deck full of Copper.
These kinds of strategies are usually resilient to most attacks for obvious reasons, but you should watch out for Pillage and sometimes Enchantress. For the same reason why you're not too worried about junking, greening early is often a good idea in these games.
It's also usable in the Hunting Party stack (well, at least if the Hunting Party stack itself is better than other strategies on the board), where it guarantees a Province turn as long as you just have at least one Silver in your deck and are able to play enough HPs to discard your deck. The downside is that you don't get any other benefits, such as the +VP from Monument etc, and it's more expensive than many other alternatives for the terminal slot, but the upside is that you don't have to buy a Gold at all.
Counting House as a +Card
This has the potential to be extremely good. There are two ways to utilize this:
1) Taking Coppers from your discard pile, then triggering a reshuffle mid-turn. This greatly reduces the number of cards you have to draw with other cards when you're trying to draw your whole deck, so it can be useful when you're having trouble drawing your deck given the kingdom. It needs a payload that really makes it worth it, though, and it should be noted that if your engine relies on this, you can't, pardon the pun, count on being able to go off every turn, so either it needs to be a megaturn payload or you need lots and lots of time.
2) Actually taking advantage of the Coppers in your hand. The most effective thing is if you can discard the Coppers for some benefit, then draw them with Counting House, then discard them again for more benefit (repeat as many times as you have +actions available). For example, you can use Counting House with Cellar to draw cards from your deck, allowing you to build an engine with no other +card, or Secret Chamber to give you lots of coins, letting you use that as your payload. Storeroom is great here, since it does both.
Here, Copper might or might not be a good addition for your deck. If your engine is strong, you can power up your Secret Chamber-style payload by adding extra Coppers, and for the Cellar draw engine thing, you want to maintain a good balance between Coppers, Cellar variants, Counting Houses and splitters. But if your engine isn't too strong, then adding extra Coppers has the potential to make it not work. If you're using it for making the Coppers miss the mid-turn reshuffle, then Copper is obviously bad as the purpose of your CH is to get rid of the Copper anyway.
Militia makes the Cellar thing a lot more clumsy, and these kinds of engines are also more vulnerable to junking than engines usually are.
Counting House with Travelling Fair
This is a thing.
In general
Any strategy with Counting House in it becomes a lot better when you gain some control over when to draw your Counting House. Therefore, cards such as Watchtower, Inn, Scheme and Haven are good in Counting House decks. Colony games are usually more favorable for CH strategies, since they benefit from longer games.
So, that's it.
14914
Goko Dominion Online / Re: working on a new stats database - what questions do you want answered
« on: September 02, 2014, 08:54:30 pm »I'm pretty sure Cultist results in high variety, as it adds up to 5 unique cards to the game and usually puts them all in the players' decks, and works well in engines. Rebuild is definitely one that leads to low variety, and Scout and others that basically remove one card slot from the kingdom by taking it and being completely useless.Another possibility for X is number of turns between player A's first gain or play and B's. This might be instructive in a case like Mercenary, i.e. is it a bigger deal if I play Merc three turns before you vs one turn.Actually the "first time before opponent" stats could be graphs where X is the turn the card is first bought/gained and Y is the advantage it gives for the player who did it.Plus win rate with a card vs. not getting said cardAlong the same lines, is there significant correlation between winning and:
- gaining your first copy of a card before opponent
- gaining more copies of a card than opponent
- playing a card for the first time before opponent
- playing a card more times than opponent
(Hypothesis: These will all turn out heavily in favor of my least favorite card: Cultist)
Meanwhile I thought of another: Correlation between the presence of a given card in a kingdom, and the variety of cards gained during games, i.e. which cards statistically lead to high-variety or low-variety decks (I have some suspects, like Cultist and Rebuild for low variety, Fairgrounds for high variety, but in this kind of analysis the surprises are often the interesting part).
And I guess for some (all?) of these stats, it shouldn't count if only one player is "good".One thing to learn from CR.
Everyone second guesses the global stats because there are lots of games from crappy players.
Pick some decent heuristic metric for "good player", (say, in top 200 at time of game), and in addition to the global stats, provide stats just from that subpool of players.
Yes, that had occurred to me. I will do one of two things - either I'll retroactively calculate the TrueSkill ratings myself or I'll use the current Iso leaderboard. The first is a bit more work, but would allow filtering based on a player's rating at game time, which should be more accurate than current rating. Either way, it'll be something that will be a parameter that can be adjusted to preference.
14915
Goko Dominion Online / Re: working on a new stats database - what questions do you want answered
« on: September 02, 2014, 07:36:32 pm »Actually the "first time before opponent" stats could be graphs where X is the turn the card is first bought/gained and Y is the advantage it gives for the player who did it.Plus win rate with a card vs. not getting said cardAlong the same lines, is there significant correlation between winning and:
- gaining your first copy of a card before opponent
- gaining more copies of a card than opponent
- playing a card for the first time before opponent
- playing a card more times than opponent
(Hypothesis: These will all turn out heavily in favor of my least favorite card: Cultist
14916
Other Games / Re: MTG
« on: September 02, 2014, 07:13:22 pm »What?You guys saw the big news?I'm personally more excited for the new block structure they're implementing in the future.
Reactions?
I am quite excited, and even if all other cards are totally crap rares I know everybody here including me is still going to draft/rip a shitload of boosters.
For those that do not follow the spoilers, Onslaught Fetches are getting reprinted in Khans of Tarkir.
14917
Dominion League / Re: Season 3 Signups
« on: September 02, 2014, 06:13:55 pm »How do we know who/when we play?You schedule the matches in the Scheduling section.
14918
Goko Dominion Online / Re: working on a new stats database - what questions do you want answered
« on: September 02, 2014, 06:09:53 pm »
First player advantage for each card would be pretty cool. Assuming that you're going to implement the CR features already.
14919
Other Games / Re: MTG
« on: September 02, 2014, 03:42:51 pm »I haven't been here that long either, but I know. Yes, they did; the oldest posts on that section are older than this.This isn't about Dominion, it should be in the "Other Games" section?
yeah, but did they even have that section back when the thread was made? I don't know. I haven't been here that long
14920
Other Games / Re: MTG
« on: September 02, 2014, 02:43:03 pm »
I started playing around the original Mirrodin block, stopped playing in IRL tournaments and following things actively around Return to Ravnica.
14921
General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff Part II
« on: September 02, 2014, 02:33:54 pm »Cue awful joke from Awaclus... oh wait.The jokes aren't meant to be funny, the fact that someone even bothers to make them is.
14922
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Uplifting Game
« on: September 02, 2014, 04:54:45 am »
Yeah, it's definitely a minority who are jerks. But those who are particularly nice are a smaller minority.
14923
Hearthstone / Re: Constructed General Discussion
« on: September 02, 2014, 02:26:55 am »
I've seen some Murloc aggro decks, mostly Warlock, although the fact that I've seen them doesn't necessarily mean that they are good.
14924
General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff Part II
« on: September 02, 2014, 01:39:44 am »
So a microphone equals 4 women? Damn, I have way more people in this room right now than I thought. EDIT: 20 actually, including me. And three cats.
14925
Hearthstone / Re: Arena General Discussion
« on: September 01, 2014, 10:59:07 pm »Hitting a Deathlord with a Stampeding Kodo is so so wrong, but feels so good.And you know what AdamH always says!