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Messages - Just a Rube

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Guilds Previews / Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« on: June 17, 2013, 06:29:19 pm »
Wouldn't the value of overpaying for stone mason at any given cost depend on the value of the cards in the kingdom at that cost? If we assume we are averaging over all kingdoms, then stone mason comes out at essentially average on every list (since buying stone mason is essentially buying a $2 copy of another card, which comes with a free stonemason, a la duchess; I'm assuming the utility of the stone mason in your deck is cancelled out by having another terminal you don't want). And if a stonemason appears on the $3 list, do we assume it's gaining 2 poor houses, wasting money, or undergoing highway shenanigans?

It's very similar to band of misfits in that way, but band of misfits isn't competing with the cards that it mimics.

More broadly, the cards are already unwieldy to rank; having to rank additional cards (esp. ones where the overpayment effect makes ranking tricky; what is the ranking difference between a doctor that overpays by 2 vs. 3?) adds work without much gain. Sure, it's only 4 cards (times the number of lists each could appear in), but it's exceptionally tricky. Assessing the new Guild cards will already be tough (just look at how badly the Dark Ages cards were judged in the current list), there is no need to break that up further.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: "Discard a card" vs. "-1 Card"
« on: June 17, 2013, 06:01:27 pm »
Seems to be a definite difference.  Drawing from the top of your deck is so commonplace that "+1 card" makes sense.  In fact, you do it five times every turn. (You do not "draw your hand", you take +1 cards five times.)  The other ways to put cards in your hand (Counting House, Mine, Beggar, IGG, etc.) are infrequent and specialized.  Discarding and getting things out of your hand, on the other hand (heh), is extremely varied.  You can discard from your hand, you can play from your hand, you can place cards from your hand on top of your deck, other players can discard a card for your, other players can make you discard cards of your choice, you can discard cards from play, you can discard cards from the top of your deck, you can place cards from your deck into the discard pile (not discarding), etc.  You can also trash cards. (Why not make "-1 card" mean trash?)  Many cards respond to discarding with special rules (e.g., Tunnel).  I feel like "-1 card" just isn't precise enough.

It also breaks some symmetry.  +1 Card is always a face-down card from the top of your deck.  You don't get to choose it (though you could have set it up to be a particular card).  If -1 card meant discarding from hand, then  you have to make a choice about what card.  And you discard to the discard pile, not to the top of your deck.  The actions are actually different, not simply the reverse of one another.  And as I believe someone else mentioned: for any way you define "-1 card", it does not hold that +1 card -1 card = -1 card +1 card, so commutivity is broken as well.

Edit: Oh, also, you can discard your hand, but you can't draw your hand.  Or at least they're not the same.  Discarding your hand during cleanup allows you to discard in any order you want.  (Or do you discard simultaneously with any rearrangement you want?)  During your cleanup phase, you draw five new cards, one at a time.
+1 for having exactly 100 respect.

+1 for your 100th post. And you can't complain about it without going to 101!

Dominion General Discussion / Re: "Discard a card" vs. "-1 Card"
« on: June 16, 2013, 11:28:08 pm »
And adventurer.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Chapel Cost?
« on: June 16, 2013, 11:49:43 am »
If you wanted to slightly reduce first player advantage, you could even let the first player decide first and take their opening buy, and then let the second player decide their split (followed by third player, etc.). This probably wouldn't make a huge difference in first player advantage, but would make things like Witch/Moat opening decisions on a 4 player board much more interesting.
Edge case: Noble Brigand

Guilds Previews / Re: Merchant Guild
« on: June 15, 2013, 07:23:16 pm »
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?
Only if you spent it while you were playing treasures.
Conceptually, I think of a coin token as another treasure, like any other, that stays out of your deck and goes away on use. Thus, you "play" it at the same time as you play your coppers, silvers, etc. They all give you money, and that is what you spend to buy/overpay. Whether the money came from a coin token or a treasure makes no difference, just like the game doesn't care if that $8 you spend for a province came from 8 coppers, 6 coppers and a silver or playing 8 markets. It's all money by the time you buy things.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Dominon analogies
« on: June 15, 2013, 03:10:06 pm »
Woodcutter:Nomad Camp::Herald:Herald(overpay 1, top deck a previous herald)

Guilds Previews / Re: Masterpiece
« on: June 14, 2013, 07:12:24 pm »
Well, Treasure Map originally came from the 7th expansion according to the secret history. That was Guilds, right?
Judging by what he said in the Secret History of the Dark Ages Cards, the 7th expansion seems to have been a now-defunct "top-of-the-deck" themed expansion.

Guilds Previews / Re: Coins
« on: June 14, 2013, 05:33:41 pm »
Guys, there is a simple solution:

Coin tokens are called "Thing-a-ma-bobs"

Coins (as in money/price) are called "Thing-a-ma-jigs"

Other tokens are called "Which-a-ma-callits"

Hopefully this should clear up all confusion.

Guilds Previews / Re: Card Photos
« on: June 13, 2013, 03:04:41 pm »
Masterpiece -

It would be so much better if it were 2+.
What card wouldn't be a lot better if you made it cheaper? Well, there are some, but not many.

Border Village. Maybe Remodel?
And not just remodel, but many cards of that type (e.g. graverobber)

Guilds Previews / Re: Bold Predictions: Guilds Edition
« on: June 13, 2013, 12:23:03 pm »
Advisor is like handing your opponents an invitation to bypass all your best cards each shuffle.

How does that make it any worse than Envoy, which is a pretty good card most of the time? In addition to it's Envoy-"esque" properties, you get +1 action, and the on-buy bonus.
I expect it will play very differently from envoy. The +action makes you want to play a bunch of advisors per turn, but each time you play an advisor, you're skipping the best of the 3 cards he reveals. Envoy is less frequently played multiple times a turn, and even when it is, you're only skipping the best card out of 5. So those are two reasons why advisor is more likely to skip key cards.

Envoy lends itself to homogeneous decks (if I reveal 5 silver, I guarantee myself $8 that turn). But if I reveal 3 silver with advisor, not only do I limit myself to $4 (not bad, but obviously worse), I can't make use of my +action unless I have others in my hand. On the other hand, if I reveal a bunch of actions with Envoy, my opponent's decision will depend on whether I have actions left or not, and his guess of whether or not the actions in my hand are better than the ones I would draw. If advisor is played more often, then he has better information about what's in my hand, for him to make that decision.

One advantage advisor does have over envoy? I have a much better chance of causing my opponent to go insane from trying to out-think me.

Guilds Previews / Re: First small Guilds Spoiler
« on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:04 pm »
I wonder when those acronyms were decided. We know Guilds was more or less finalized before Dark Ages (since it was originally scheduled to come first, right?), so the names were probably already chosen by then, but were they earlier than that?

I wonder if FO used to be called "Fool's Gold," since in one of the addenda to the Secret History of Hinterlands he mentioned that "Fool's Gold" was a name that bounced around to a lot of cards.

MI was probably "Miller" since it "grinds" a big card into two smaller cards. I wonder why it changed.

Guilds Previews / Re: Card Photos
« on: June 13, 2013, 10:42:20 am »
So, it turns out the bald person theme wasn't just a throw-away joke. Awesome.

Dominion Articles / Re: Rebuild Mirrors
« on: June 11, 2013, 10:44:56 pm »
Also, I don't understand why tournament is good at all. Sure, you will probably have provinces fairly quickly. But which prize do you want?
Duchy? Or will you empty that pile too quick?

Guilds Previews / Re: First small Guilds Spoiler
« on: June 10, 2013, 01:01:28 am »
I posted this in another thread, but it really belongs here. We've just sort of taken it as a given that "SO" was originally something like "Sojourner" which was then renamed to Journeyman. But the two words mean very different things. It's just as likely that the GU (the other $5 card) was originally named something too close to "Guilds" and was renamed, in the same way that "Hinterland" was renamed to "Farmland" in the Hinterlands expansion.

In that case, we should also think of SO names. I suggested Sorceress (or possibly Sorcerer) as a Curser, but I'm sure you guys can think of others.

Or, we could wait a few days for it all to be released, but where's the fun in that?

Guilds Previews / Re: Curser speculation
« on: June 10, 2013, 12:13:04 am »
I've been thinking, we assumed SO was Sojourner renamed to Journeyman at some point. But really, they are very different concepts (a traveler versus someone who is basically a step above an apprentice).

What if the GU was the card that became Journeyman (because it was originally something like "Guildmaster" and was renamed for the same reason "Hinterland" became "Farmland" in Hinterlands).

That would leave SO as "Sorceress" or something of that sort, which seems an appropriate name for a curser.

Well, it's not easy for us Border Patrol Agents here in the Watchtower.

You wouldn't believe the crazy things people try to sneak into the country. Just the other day, there was this guy, pretty obviously a thief, who claimed he'd "found" a valuable cache, with lots of gold and copper, in the neighboring kingdom. Well, I told him he could keep the gold, but we had to impound the copper. Potentially infested with the Western Copper Aphid, a dangerous species don't you know. Well he tried to argue, but we just told him to dispose of it in the conveniently located trash receptacle. Ditto with those goons the other day, with a huge load of copper that they'd just bought; I don't make the rules, I just enforce them.

There's also that crazy witch across the border, who keeps trying to ship cursed artifacts into the kingdom. I must have told her a thousand times "You're in violation of the International Convention on Magical Item Trafficking," but she won't stop.

And don't get me started about that obnoxious ambassador, seems like he's always trying to bring an entire estate with him. I tell him "I don't care what your title is, we treat everyone the same" and then secretly impound all his stuff and deny his servants visas.

Everyone entering the country has to fill out an entry form for visas. I can't count the number of would-be marauders checking off the box for Purpose of Visit: "Reducing your villages to ruins." Well, needless to say, those guys get denied visas and kicked out. We're not heartless though, they each get a packet of souvenir candy from the desk bowl. They may be spoilt though, we haven't cleaned it out since Halloween.

Of course, it's not all about preventing people from smuggling things into the country. Occasionally we receive priority shipments that HQ tells us to send strait to the King's Inbox. And we do.

So I hope, next time you invest some copper with your local spice merchant, you remember the brave men and women here at the Watchtower. We're keeping your coppers free of aphids and your villages unruined.

Guilds Previews / Re: Curser speculation
« on: June 09, 2013, 06:22:34 pm »
A good comparison is duchess. Everyone can benefit from the friendly spy, but Duchess also gives $2 to the person who played it, so s/he on average comes out slightly ahead (assuming he had a free action to spend). Here, once the curses run out your opponents get exactly the same benefit as you, and doesn't need to spend an action.

I wouldn't be completely surprised to see a card that gives out coin tokens to your opponents as well, but it would need to be something akin to Vault, Governor or Council Room, where you benefit more than they do.

I wonder how these rankings would look if we all mostly played 4-player games. It's possible they'd be very similar, but I wouldn't be shocked if the junkers weren't all on top like this.
Junkers are still pretty strong in 4 player. Sure, you can in principle skip them with less of a loss (since your opponents will be junking each other), but your deck will still be junked enough to be very painful.

What would really take a hit is cards like Minion or Hunting Party, where you want a bunch of them. It's really hard to run an engine based on either one with only 2.5 Minions or HPs. On the other hand things like Jester become insane, and pirate ship and thief become significantly stronger.

3-piling is much more common, so something like city obviously would be bumped up a lot, but once again you can't count on getting too many (especially since buying the last city is almost always a sucker's move).

Things like treasure map get stronger (simply because the odds of winning go down, so taking a gamble becomes more appealing, especially for poor player 4), while engines get weaker.

Things that don't need the relevant expansions:
- Durations
- When trash effects
- Overpay effects
- Action/Victory and Treasure/Victory Cards (as proven by Island and Dame Josephine)
- When gain/buy effects (as proven by Mint and Death Cart)

-Intrigue: Cards that give choices (as shown by Count)
-Prosperity: Treasures that do things when played (as shown by the "may gain a copper" clause of IGG)
-Prosperity: Cards that cost $7


Several of the sets have sub-themes beyond the obvious (e.g. Hinterlands and Intrigue both have sub-themes of "cards that are/interact with victory cards"). And of course, cards can approach things in different ways (e.g. the Durations affect "Your Next Turn", but so does Lookout). While I'd expect fewer of these things (it's a Treasure Chest, so you want to make the relationship obvious, which Durations do and something like Sea Hag does much less), they're not impossible.

A haven is big enough to hide a merchant ship, or even an entire province, but can only fit half of a treasure map.

And speaking of treasure maps, trying to read one and failing is frustrating enough to cause you to burn it. You get so excited, sitting in your throne room pouring over it, that you eventually knock over a lantern and light it on fire. But really, you should have known better than to trust a map from that shady guy at the Black Market.

But hey, it could be worse: your neighbor was so excited to buy a piece of gold at the Black Market, that he didn't notice it was only iron pyrite. Fool me once...

Meanwhile, you both shake your fist at the guy who found a copy of "Tournament Planning For Dummies"; now all the cool Followers and Princesses come to his parties.

Guilds Previews / Re: How Guilds affects existing... Things
« on: June 08, 2013, 03:25:32 pm »
Coins will change things the most I think.

Overpaying is fun, but it doesn't seem more than a cute tactic you can only pull off every once and a while. With Doctor, by the time you can spend a decent amount on it, you'll have good cards mixed in with your bad. With Butcher, overpaying automatically means you have at least $5 and those are often best spent on a $5+ card anyway.
I'm assuming you mean Herald instead of Butcher there.

Just spouting off:
Coins will probably be better for either decks that want virtual coin (e.g. scrying pool, minion) or decks that tend to stall towards the end (because you can store up coin tokens early while you're still cycling and producing $8+ normally, then use the coin tokens to help bump up those later $6-7 hands near the end, so as to finish off the pile). I'm really not sold on using them as a megaturn enabler, at least judging by the cards we already saw; you'd have to play baker 8 times per province, and that just seems too slow.

Overspending is harder to evaluate, because it depends so much on what the overspending does; while we can guess that there may be some card that you can overspend to get coin tokens, we don't really know what the other options look like. Since it's on-buy rather than on-gain, that limits the options. That said, I can't help but wonder if early game coin boosters like Baron will get better; Doctor seems like it wants to be overpaid for early if at all. At the same time, earlier is harder to afford the big spending (both in absolute cost and opportunity cost). Herald obviously likes things like KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, but is worse than most villages in traditional engines. And while you can buy it to set-up Treasure Map turns more easily (both to cash them in and to match up the 4 gold with a +buy), you probably don't want to play it while you have treasure maps in your deck, unless you want to risk it trashing them for you.

Journeyman seems like a solid big money card, but it can also make engines work with much less trashing. At the same time, it's much more vulnerable to ruins than it is to curses, whether you want to trash them or skip them.

Guilds Previews / Re: Weak cards you hope get re-done in Guilds
« on: June 08, 2013, 11:09:24 am »
Naa, more something like:

Each other player reveals their hand. If he reveals any duplicates he discards a card costing more than 0 that is not a Victory Card. If he doesn't discard a card he gains a Curse in hand.


+1 Coin Token
Each other player reveals their hand. For every card revealed with a different name:
He may pay a Coin Token. If he doesn't he chooses one: Discard a card that is not a duplicate or gain a curse.
Talk about First Player Advantage!

Guilds Previews / Re: First small Guilds Spoiler
« on: June 08, 2013, 01:19:54 am »
Based on a bit of research into Medieval guilds, here are my guesses for Guilds card names (those already revealed in bold):
<Modified to bold Herald and add another possibility I had thought of for AD...>

BEguild ($4) --> AD = Advocate (or Adept)
CBguild ($5) --> BA = Baker
CVguild ($5) --> BU = Butcher
DNguild ($2) --> CM = Candlestick Maker
EPguild ($3) --> DO = Doctor
GPguild ($3) --> FO = Founder (or Foundry)
HVguild ($5) --> GU = Guild Hall
IFguild ($4) --> HE = Herald
NHguild ($5) --> MG = Merchant Guild (or Master Guildsman)
NJguild ($2) --> MI = Miller
TPguild ($5) --> SO = Sojourner renamed to Journeyman (?)
UWguild ($4) --> TV = Trading Village (or Tavern)
UYguild ($4) --> TX = Tax Collector
MG could also be Magistrate. GU could be Guildmaster

and I kinda want FO to be Fountain. And MI should be Milliner (a maker of hats).

Guilds Previews / Re: Preview #5: Herald
« on: June 07, 2013, 11:21:38 am »
How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.
Probably the best comparison is with Peddler. Peddler is overpriced for its effect, but you can underpay by playing actions first. Like Herald et al., this underpayment is a major component of its utility. Plus, you're probably more likely to buy a doctor/herald/whatever at list cost than a Herald at $8.

Peddler is in with the 6+ card list, so Herald should be in the $4 card list.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: June 07, 2013, 11:11:07 am »
Hey, was Leo peeking at his hand?  How did he know about the Colonies?
Leo is very good at tracking decks.

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