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176
Dominion General Discussion / The AP Expansion
« on: September 12, 2012, 12:03:01 pm »
-I have a fortress, a junk dealer, and three cards I'd rather not trash, but it's not the end of the world if I'm forced to trash one (like silvers).

-If I trash this feodum for the silvers, I'll probably be able to graverob it back before my opponent does, since I have more graverobbers and I'm about to shuffle.

-I play band of misfits. Steward, pawn, hermit, and develop are on the board.

-I have a rats in my hand.


177
Dominion General Discussion / Beggar is pretty good
« on: September 08, 2012, 10:59:52 pm »
We've had several boards in a row where we dealt out beggar and scoffed because who would want to buy beggar unless there's Counting House or Gardens or something? Anyway, I've decided it's pretty good for a 3-provinces 6-duchy strategy, much like the ancient "bureaucrat beats chapel" strategy. I bought it in the middle of a game where my opponent was maraudering me a bunch (I also twice used a band of misfits as a beggar) and I didn't expect to shuffle too many more times, and was happy. I only think I used the reaction once or twice; the immediate +3 was the big help.

178
I'll start. I don't have a solution to this one, though. The official rulebook mentions that if you play band of misfits acting as a king's court on a duration, the band of misfits stays out. Is there as of yet any way to make band of misfits act as a king's court?

179
Forum Games / A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« on: July 29, 2012, 07:55:05 pm »


"obvious play is obvious" - theorel

the big tl;dr: the word WIFOM is used too much, and many allegedly WIFOM situations are in fact quite concretely solvable.

Here's a modified WIFOM game. (It's kinda lame, cause nobody dies.) I'll call it false WIFOM. We sit in front of a table with a green glass and a white glass. I secretly write down a word "green" or "white" on a piece of paper to "poison" that glass. You choose a glass and "drink" from it.  If you sip from the poison glass, you have to give me ten dollars. However, if you drink from the green glass, I have to give you five dollars (whether it was was poisoned or not).

At first glance, this seems similar to the classical WIFOM problem (same game without the green glass twist). The drinker's strategy should be "go for the green glass," since it has the bonus, except, wait, the poisoner knows that, so the poisoner will just poison the green glass, so you should really go for the white glass, except, wait...

However, I claim there is a subtle difference. To see this it's helpful to employ the language of "mixed strategy." In a "mixed strategy," both players make their choices based on some sort of randomness, like, say, a die roll. So the poisoner might flip a coin and poison if the coin turns up heads, say.

An "equilibrium solution" to a game (for the purpose of this post) is a mixed strategy for both players that neither player can gain by deviating from (unless the other also deviates). In other words, the equilibrium solution yields the maximum score that one player can make given that his opponent plays perfectly, and vice-versa.

It turns out that there's a definitive answer to the question: which mixed strategy should the players adopt going into this game? (At least if by that we mean "find an equilibrium solution.") The poisoner should poison the green glass with probability 3/4, and the drinker should pick the green glass with probability 1/2. Two proofs below, spoilered for people who don't like math.



Proof (with calculus): The second person's expected gain from the game (which is actually a loss) is a function of two variables: x, the probability that the poisoner poisons the green glass, and y, the probability that the drinker drinks from the green glass. More precisely,

P(x, y) = y(5  - 10x) - 10(1-y)(1-x)

The equilibrium solution is the "saddle point" of this function. In other words, it's the point on the graph where, if x is fixed, and y is allowed to vary, P(x, y) only goes down, but if y is fixed, and x is allowed to vary, P(x, y) only goes up. It's a straightforward calculation to see that x = 3/4 and y = 1/2.

Second "proof" (just algebra, but an intuitive argument that I find a little sketchy): The first player, intuitively, should pick a strategy that leaves the second player with no real choice, i.e. should put the second player in a classical WIFOM position. If he poisons the green glass with probability x, the expected payoff to the second player for picking that glass is 5 - 10x. The expected payoff for the second player picking the white glass is -10(1-x), and he wants these numbers to be equal.



What's the moral? Well, if you're the guy drinking the glass, there is no moral. The other player can pick an optimal strategy that makes you 50-50, and so you may as well have been playing literal WIFOM. You might conclude that this analysis has no bearing on the game of mafia, but I don't agree.

Here's why: let's say you're a fly on the wall in the modified WIFOM game. You're not going to drink a glass or poison a glass; you're just watching. You have a side bet with another fly on the wall. Your bet is: which glass did the poisoner put the poison in? What should you bet? Of course you should bet he put it in the green glass (since in the equilibrium solution, he did so 75% of the time). The second player still picks the green glass sometimes because of the shift of the risk-reward calculation, but it doesn't change the basic fact that the green glass is more likely to be poisoned.

In Mafia, your role is part glass-drinker, part fly-on-the-wall. Sometimes (e.g. LyLo) you really are in classic zero-information WIFOM - they've put you in a position that you have to make a random guess. But if there's a lot of game left, you learn information about other players from moves they've made. So when you see someone make a move that's actively bad for scum (i.e. it would be hurting his own team if he were scum), you should think "I've gained some information that he is less likely to be scum" in spite of the WIFOM. Likewise, when you see someone make a move that's actively good for scum, you should think "he's more likely to be scum," not "scum would never do that, it's too obvious, unless that's what scum WANTS me to think, unless . . ."

180
Forum Games / Mafia Ethics
« on: July 29, 2012, 11:40:35 am »
I want there to be a consensus on this before another huge mafia game.

It came up a couple times in MVI whether someone's "real life" claims were true or false.

I think it should absolutely be OK for mafia to lie about light irl claims - e.g. - I'm not going to have internet access until tomorrow = I will check in two hours and quickhammer if we win.

But I do see a couple problems with allowing unlimited false "real life" claims. The problem is, I can imagine something horrible where someone says "I'm sorry, but I can't participate today, my sister died in her sleep last night," and everyone else has strong reason to doubt the claim but obviously is not going to do so out loud for fear of looking like a monster. [yes, this is an exaggeration; no, nobody would think to go to the mafia forum in this circumstance, but i can imagine more borderline cases where I feel wrong calling somebody out on what is probably a lie]

Frisk suggested the best solution is all real life claims must be real which I think is the best rule I can come up with. I just want it somewhere public instead of buried in MVI.

181
Let X be a cantrip costing 3/4 that you'd normally prefer to buy silver than open with. Suppose it is a chapel game and you split 3/4 or 4/3 (similar questions happen if you split 5/2, but let's keep this simplifying assumption).

Now, chapel has the property that if you miss it on the first shuffle, and your opponent doesn't, you're going to lose the game. OK, that's an exaggeration, but not by too much. It's a lot like missing your potion in a familiar game. So it stands to reason that you might want to cut your risk of missing the chapel in the first shuffle (almost*) in half by buying the cantrip. Then the question becomes, given that it's unlikely that you'll miss your chapel on the first shuffle, how bad of an opening does the cantrip have to be to justify doing this? Is it worth opening, say, menagerie, which will be useless to you on the first shuffle? What about wishing well? Caravan? Oasis?

*if bottom card after shuffle is chapel (probability 1/12), or if bottom two cards are chapel/cantrip (1/132 in that order; we've already counted the other order) you're just as screwed as if the cantrip were a silver. So you increase your odds of drawing chapel from 5/6 = 83.33% to (11/12 - 1/132) = 90.91%.

In general I suspect conservative plays like this are undervalued.

182
General Discussion / my dominion story
« on: July 17, 2012, 04:53:56 pm »
Today I went to the coffee shop down the corner where there is no internet so that I could type some stuff up instead of surfing the Dominion Strategy Forum. I was the only one there, and the owners were like, hey, do you want to play Dominion? They had Intrigue at the coffee shop. So we did. Rad. I didn't type the stuff up though.

183
Dominion General Discussion / Island
« on: July 16, 2012, 08:50:52 pm »
Does anyone else hate to put a curse on the island mat, even if there's no way to trash the curse?

184
Variants and Fan Cards / a terminal silver with moat's reaction
« on: July 07, 2012, 02:38:05 pm »
how do you price it?

185
Game Reports / most silvers played in a turn?
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:49:54 am »
i managed to play 23 silvers in a turn this game.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120522-143403-db1df261.html

my opponent is going for warehouse tunnel and in an unlucky turn for him (my turn 9), he has to pass me a good card with masquerade and i end up getting a talisman. since my deck is expected to draw lots of cards, i decide to gain 4 silvers instead of gaining 2 golds. this winds up snowballing.

186
Dominion General Discussion / a short note on wishing well
« on: June 27, 2012, 11:09:37 am »
I see a lot of folks asking if they should wish for what's on top of their deck, or what they really want in their hand. Of course the answer is that it depends, but here's one concise thing you can say that's true at any point in the game.

You should wish for the card that maximizes (probability that you will draw the card) * (benefit of drawing the card).


Examples:
early game - you know your deck has three estates and a copper. What do you wish for? You have a 75% chance of improving your next hand by ridding it of an estate, and a 25% chance of a money. If that copper is the key to the game (e.g. it's your only chance to get your first witch before reshuffling and your opponent has a witch already), you will take it. If not (e.g. it's the difference between a silver and a caravan) you should wish for an estate.

turn three - after playing WW, you have five copper in hand; your deck contains 2 coppers, 3 estates, and a silver. What do you wish for? Well, if you were going to buy a 5 like minion or witch anyway, you may as well wish for an estate. If all the 5s are terrible, you wish for a copper -you're throwing away a 50% chance of "scouting yourself" for a 33% chance of a gold, which is reasonable. It's very rare that you'd wish for the silver here - you'd need a powerful seven on the board and also a five that you'd always prefer over gold.

Late game - you're playing a vault deck. If you drew your wishing well with a gold or a silver and a bunch of junk, you should wish for your vault even if the probability is very low, because it's a certain province if you're right. On the other hand, if you draw your wishing well with pure junk, you  DON'T want to wish for a vault - wish for the most probable junk, to increase the chances of vault/gold collision.

187
Dominion General Discussion / The Ultimate Player One Board
« on: June 12, 2012, 03:31:50 pm »
The point is to design a kingdom that's maximally hard for second player in two player Dominion. So far, I got:

Chapel
Tournament
Governor

188
Puzzles and Challenges / Exception to the Rule
« on: June 12, 2012, 01:32:50 pm »
What a crazy game! The silver pile is empty, thanks to trader, and you've drawn your whole deck. With one action to spare, you can pick between Bureaucrat and Ghost Ship before buying the penultimate province- but good news! You've seen your opponent's hand, thanks to a Cutpurse. You confidently play the Bureaucrat. Why? (Many correct answers.)

189
General Discussion / Dominion Cards that put songs in your mind
« on: June 10, 2012, 06:14:45 pm »
City - "When the lights go down in the city..." - Journey
Duke - "you can feel it all oooover..." - Stevie Wonder
Young Witch - YMCA - Village People
Hunting Party - the part of the third movement of Beethoven's third symphony with the French horns.

190
Simulation / How many stashes do you want in Chancellor/Stash?
« on: June 02, 2012, 11:22:30 am »
I don't have enough computational skills to answer this question myself (i.e. I can't even figure out how to download the simulator on my ancient mac).

When playing chancellor/stash, my pseudo-algorithm is usually something like: avoid silvers, buy chancellors, buy stashes till you have 4, then prefer chancellors (unless it's duchy time), buy province whenever you have 8.

I'm not sure if this is ideal. With enough chancellors, chancellor/stash has a reasonable expectation of getting a province every other turn, and with luck, you draw a chancellor as the fifth card in your stash hand, thus getting two provinces in a row. (i've found the lucky draw happens about an average of once per game using the above buying rules, but this is just my ten or so IRL games, not simulation)

Suppose we only buy three stashes. On the one hand, some of our stash turns won't get a province, which is bad. On the other, the chance of having a chancellor in hand on the stash turn doubles, which is good.

So,

1. Simple question - For simplicity, ignore duchies. Which gets to five provinces faster? Four stashes (buy rules: province, stash w/ <8 unless there's 4 in deck already, chancellor) ? Or three stashes? Note that I expect four stashes to get to 8 provinces faster, but that this is the wrong question for practical applications.

2. Hard question - What's the best win % against BMU you can make buying only chancellors, stashes, and green cards?

192
Dominion Articles / request - possession
« on: May 24, 2012, 02:52:02 pm »
can someone say something smart about possession that I haven't heard before, even if it's wrong? I feel that I've read all the conventional wisdom on the card and still don't understand it at all.
to wit, I think I understand:

1. it can be a trap.

2. the card interactions as described on this article, which is now missing a couple expansions. (i don't think there's a cornucopia or hinterlands card that has a substantially new kind of interaction with possession from an old card, although once someone won a prize i deserved while possessing me and that made me sad.)
http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/

3. broadly, possessees have to worry about trash-for-benefit and "make the card leave the deck without trashing" (island + ambassador + masq) and possessees benefit from attacks, gain-to-the-hand-cards, alternate vp chips, and bad decks (but...).

i still have no idea what to do on over 50% of possession boards. usually i follow #1 and "ignore it," but this isn't always right.

193
Game Reports / unexpected engine - mirror match
« on: May 19, 2012, 03:53:30 pm »
Rabid and I mirror match a fishing village + discard for benefit + jack of all trades engine. Works quite well (the length of the game is due to duchy dancing).

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/19/game-20120519-112247-0f7bd4de.html

194
Game Reports / life is unfair in my favor
« on: May 18, 2012, 05:11:19 pm »
bad luck: My opponent split 5/2 on a mountebank board. I split 4/3.

good luck: six out of six times that he played a mountebank, I had a trader in hand.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/18/game-20120518-140538-65cb2e62.html

195
Game Reports / Clever decision-making
« on: May 14, 2012, 10:52:13 am »
Masquerade game. I'm playing straight big money/masquerade. It's the middle of the game, not quite duchy time, and I play a masquerade. After the passing, I'm in an awkward position where I either have 6, or can trash a copper and buy a 5. I've greened early and can't put a duchy in my deck. I contemplate for a second and see a five on the board which, while not as good as gold, is almost as good in a big money deck, so I trash the copper and buy it. That five was Cache. In other news, I lost. 

log: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120513-095730-ea572563.html

196
Game Reports / attack of the truly terrible cards
« on: May 11, 2012, 04:10:33 pm »
This colony game was interesting, mostly because there were so many weak cards in it, several of which were useful in some way or another.

Adventurer, Bank, Bureaucrat, Colony, Contraband, Explorer, Fishing Village, Platinum, Saboteur, Trade Route, Village, and Walled Village

I'll avoid spoilers in case someone wants to think about what to do, but this may be the first time in history that I have ever thought "damn, the saboteur hit my adventurer."

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/11/game-20120511-130621-1eeae93c.html

197
You throne room a nobles, knowing you want more cards. You may or may not also want more actions, you haven't decided yet. You obviously should take the cards first.

The challenge: invent the most reasonable, well-designed, balanced Dominion card that you can whose existence would change this rule of thumb.

Non-example: Ig $5 Treasure - Reaction +2 If you've throne roomed a Nobles this turn, and you said +2 Actions first, then you said +2 cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain 12 provinces.

198
Dominion Articles / tactics: turning off the autopilot
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:31:40 pm »
This article is inspired by an embarrassing game yesterday where I repeatedly failed to Jester good cards away from my opponent because I dumped them with a spy.

A large part of Dominion strategy involves mindless decision-making. You throne room a nobles - cards or actions? A moment's thought tells you that if you're ever going to draw the cards, you should draw them first. Same for minion. From now until the end of time, you will make the decision that way, and after a few thousand games, it stops feeling like a decision. This is augmented by playing on a computer instead of in real life. Learning to autopilot these decisions will free up lots of brain capacity to make more difficult decisions. Moreover, in these two extreme cases, the autopilot will essentially never hurt you.

Sometimes, however, it will. Here's a list of tactical decisions which, while generally true, should not be autopiloted (the reason to avoid autopilot is listed in parentheses after the decision). Please add to it! Note that this isn't a list of strategic decisions (e.g. when can you skip opening sea hag?), which should never be completely autopiloted.

One important thing to keep in mind: each new expansion changes the game dramatically. Decisions you autopilot today will cause significant AP after Guilds and the Dark Ages.

1. Pearl diver sees a junk card, doesn't move it; sees a good card, moves it. (Terminal draw, farming village)

2. Spy and scrying pool dump opponent's good cards. (Jester, swindler, saboteur.)

3. Late game, very close, you don't have 5, buy estate (island, tunnel, great hall)

3.5. Late game, very close, you don't have 8, buy duchy (fairgrounds, farmland a curse into something)

3.75 Late game, very close, you have 8, buy province (farmland , although numerous well-understood strategic considerations here means this shouldn't have been on autopilot anyway)

4. Throne room a throne room instead of a card that draws (mandatory trashers)

5. oracle sees opponent's silver, drops it (If you would leave copper copper, you should probably leave silver/estate).

6. discard the worst cards in your hand to an opponent's discard attack (mountebank, masquerade)

7. have two, might as well get a pearl diver/pawn/... (your terminal draw, opponent's discard attack)

8. play tactician, end turn (do you want to buy a copper? a curse?)

9. opponent plays torturer, curses are out, opt to take a curse (watchtower, menagerie)

199
If you click on the "card winningness" on councilroom, you'll notice that menagerie is a good card. OK, definitely.

Then you'll notice that among all the <5 cost villages, the single best fit for menagerie is worker's village. Not hamlet, not fishing village. (This comparison show up in the default that rrenaud put in there if you click that link on councilroom - you don't have to ask it anything.) I have no explanation! I guess +buy is nice, but hamlet gives that and also causes you to draw a billion cards (admittedly after possibly making your hand slightly worse).

200
this game is unremarkable except for setting that record.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/01/game-20120501-223848-64861954.html

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