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26
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: March 19, 2018, 12:12:48 pm »
Donald, I'm champing at the bit to get Cornucopia/Guilds. Is there any update on the expected date this will be available for purchase? Thank you!

I looked into buying Guilds/Cornucopia and places want $70 for it! Must be out of print for some reason? I'll grab it when the price comes back down, thanks for everyones suggestions!

The next printing should be out soon, likely within the next month. That’s Donald’s latest news on BGG, anyhow.

Thanks for finding that!

27
Dominion Articles / Re: What's stopping AI from mastering Dominion?
« on: March 19, 2018, 09:53:21 am »
I think we should submit a research grant application to build this.

28
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: March 19, 2018, 09:51:31 am »
Donald, I'm champing at the bit to get Cornucopia/Guilds. Is there any update on the expected date this will be available for purchase? Thank you!

29
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Extending the game
« on: March 14, 2018, 11:54:41 am »
This should be in the Variants subforum.

Agree, didn't know about that subforum in advance. Can a moderator please move this thread?

Play best-of-6 matches instead of games.

Yeah, true. It's a lot of set-up though IRL if each game is fairly short, and you don't play the same kingdom twice.

Unrelated: why does everyone like best-of-6 for matches? Sure you can tie games and end something like 3.5 to 2.5, but best-of-<odd number> seems more intuitive.

30
Dominion General Discussion / Extending the game
« on: March 13, 2018, 02:30:02 pm »
After playing a few IRL games recently that played out a bit too quickly, I started to wonder what ways there would be to extend the game. Playing with platinum and colony is one option: by making your end-game target cards more expensive, it usually means you need more turns to build up. So are there other ways, and are they any good?

One idea I had (I make no claims about whether it is a good one or not) is to start the game with more cards; for example, start with 3 estates and 12 coppers. Of all the 15-card (three starting hand), copper/estate combinations, this one at least makes sure that your minimum starting hand value is $2. Starting with more of these cards that you usually want to get rid of ASAP would usually mean that you see your newly purchased cards less frequently or at least less quickly, slowing your deck development. Of course there are cases where it might play differently than this, e.g. in a donate game (open 5/5/2, with two good cards and then donate).

If you're dealing more starting cards, it doesn't have to be a multiple of 5 even; why not start with 12 cards. Anyway, would this fly? Are there better ideas for extending the game?

31
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« on: March 11, 2018, 03:48:22 pm »
If this is the first time you have read this thread, +$(Integer.MAX_VALUE).
---
When scoring, divide by the number of Provinces in the supply.

32
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What should Dominion do next?
« on: March 10, 2018, 11:45:25 am »
Pirate Ship coin tokens basically got a new mechanic and a bunch of cards that use it in Guilds. I feel sorry for Embargo tokens that still just have only one card that uses them. I thought about how maybe 'curse tokens' would be interesting as a mechanic - you curse your opponent and in general they can't trash it because it's a token, but at the same time it doesn't slow them down like curse cards do. Then I realized that you could just give yourself a victory token instead and it's the same net effect. Oh well.

One of the cardinal rules of Dominion appears to be: two cards with the same name have the same effect. E.g. the cards in the Ruins or Knights pile have different effects, and different names to go with it. Maybe that rule could be played with. For example you could replace the curses pile with a pile of new cards all called 'curse', but which have a small variety of slightly different effects, e.g.: "-1VP" (vanilla curse); "0VP, when you gain this discard a card"; "0VP, when you trash this gain a curse" (since there's variety in the curse pile it's not like you'd never be able to get rid of them).

Don't know why I have curses on the brain. Since buying Adventures, Dominion IRL appears to have gotten 'faster', and some way of extending the game length would be nice so you have more time to enjoy the deck you built. I guess Prosperity achieves this by giving you more powerful victory cards so that you often have to build for longer to reach them; it would be nice to see if there's some other mechanic that could lengthen the game time, without e.g. just resorting to more powerful attacks.

33
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why Dominion is great!
« on: March 10, 2018, 01:36:12 am »
For me, in short, it's elegant. There doesn't seem to be any fluff, it's just solid design. Even down to the costs of the basic cards and how the price points are laid out, it just works.

34
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your stories of unexpected comebacks
« on: March 09, 2018, 11:22:23 pm »
Back in the isotropic days I played a kingdom with Sea Hag. I felt like Sea Hag was a pretty powerful card, and wanted to see if I could get by without using it. Also in the kingdom were Remodel, Expand Forge, and Pearl Diver; I don't remember what else, but I figured that would be a reasonable basis for a risky, and probably really inefficient, strategy - but hey, circuitous paths to occasional victory are fun. Naturally I received all the Curses, but I proceeded to Remodel my Curses into Pearl Divers, crawl my way to 7 for an early Expand Forge, and then got by crunching my 0s, 2s and 4s into Golds and then Provinces. I am not sure if that really counts as a comeback but it felt like an accomplishment.

35
Dominion Articles / Re: What's stopping AI from mastering Dominion?
« on: March 06, 2018, 10:41:28 pm »
I think the main bottleneck is resources. Dominion is a complex game with many possible choices at each moment, but it can still be broken down into discrete decisions and measurable variables (including approximations, e.g. what my opponent can possibly have in hand). With a sufficiently detailed implementation and enough compute power to run it, and to run it against itself many many times, you could in principle achieve something quite good. Such a model should be able to approximate decisions like whether to play an action if it will trigger a shuffle, whether to buy a province if there are only two remaining, and so on. It wouldn't be necessary for the system learn a human-like intuition about how new cards would work (e.g. a hypothetical vanilla +6 cards) for it to be able to make sensible decisions using a finite set of cards it has learned how to play.

36
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Drinking Game
« on: March 06, 2018, 02:54:58 pm »
When you pass cards with Masquerade, pass your drink too. If you played the Masquerade and choose to trash a card, drink.

EDIT: I am not responsible for any health-related consequences of this game.

37
I unboxed Dominion: Adventures, sorted the cards, and then went to sleep.

38
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Drinking Game
« on: February 28, 2018, 06:33:58 pm »
Take a drink whenever you check the top card of your deck and it's just what you needed. Hello Mystic, Vassal and more!

39
YYYY-MM-DD is objectively the best though. It has all the advantages: it's not ambiguous, and it gets sorted in the correct order when sorted alphabetically.

This is true. So annoying when my digital camera downloads pictures, groups them into folder by date, but then at the turn of the new year all my folders are sorted incorrectly because it automatically used MM-DD-YYYY to name the folders.

40
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread
« on: February 07, 2018, 12:35:05 pm »
My wife opened 5/2 and then got 2 again on turn 3. So turns 2-4 consisted of buying two Embargoes and then Embargoing the Embargoes.

41
Help! / Re: Posting losses in an attempt to get better.
« on: February 06, 2018, 09:26:44 am »
Hmm what about Gardens on this one? Gaining cards is enabled by Treasure Trove, and Delve for cheap Silver. To try and get a lot of Treasure Trove plays, tempted also to Mine Silver into Treasure Trove.

42
I really enjoyed these cards.

Batcon produces $2 more than Woodcutter, and costs $2 less. Presumably we have to assume that the "Att" card type is sufficiently less useful than an Action; maybe you can only play it when no-one else is paying attention. Maybe you can only play it at Batcon.

I think that given a huge dataset (thousand or even millions of (good) cards), this could make good cards.
I doubt that.

If you really wanted a computer to make good Dominion cards rather than just amusing aberrations, you'd want to train it on:
  • Good cards
  • Bad cards
  • Good things that aren't (legal/sensical) cards
  • Bad things that aren't cards
There's no point letting it churn out cruft like an infinite number of monkeys until it happens to reinvent Smithy; you'd want it to come up with good stuff that's not currently in Dominion and "Dominionise" it.

Yes, very much this. Even with a huge set of good cards, you're still only training on good cards. Everything the model has seen at the moment is a positive example, it needs to be able to differentiate between good and bad, and yes probably also between cards and non-cards.

43
It's suggested here that Philosopher's Stone is at its best in slogs, so maybe it would be a good idea to reference Familiar. If one of the reasons given for the low ranking of Philosopher's Stone is that it's hard to justify the potion buy in slogs, then maybe Familiar, which it is suggested here almost mandates a potion buy, is worth mentioning in that context. Not the greatest combo in the world, sure, but the way these two cards were discussed seemed to suggest synergy that wasn't mentioned directly. Just a thought!

44
Are there really games where Bag of Gold or Diadem are the critical prizes to aim for? I've never seen such a game. Diadem I can imagine but only then in extremely specific circumstances; Bag of Gold maybe in slogs but in those cases Followers is the more critical prize. Does anyone have examples of these rare situations?

45
Also surprised that Upgrade is so high. I love Remodel and its cousins but 'costing exactly one more' is pretty limiting.
It's also an opportunity.  It's much better at trashing coppers than remodel.

I agree about the coppers, Remodel sucks at that, but comparing to Remodel is not of great significance to this list, since Remodel is a 4-cost.

If we're talking early game, instead of Upgrade you could get Count to trash your hand, or Hunting Party and mostly skip over coppers, and so on, but both of these are ranked lower than Upgrade here. A cantrip also doesn't seem to be especially valuable in the first few turns, where terminal collision is unlikely. Is Upgrade that good for turning Estates into 3-cost in the early game?

I don't know, I just don't see why Upgrade's abilities put it in the top ten, and I am curious to learn what I am failing to understand. There are several other cards in the top 20 that could conceivably be more critical than Upgrade in any given kingdom, like Minion, Avanto and Rebuild.

Trashing coppers without using a terminal action and drawing a card to replace itself is great.

Trashing Estates to gain a $3 is great (at worst Silver).

After that, Upgrade isn’t useless. If there are power $4s, a Silver gainer pairs well with Upgrade, or even trashing the Silvers you already had. One common trick is to get 2-3 Upgrades and then Upgrade the extras into Golds.

For all of the reasons Remake is far and away the best $4, Upgrade is good. You’re focusing too much on the Remodel-like effect and too little on the thinning - Remodel can’t thin at all because of the phrase “up to”, but Upgrade can because of the word “exactly”.

Appreciate the thorough response, thank you.

46
Also surprised that Upgrade is so high. I love Remodel and its cousins but 'costing exactly one more' is pretty limiting.
It's also an opportunity.  It's much better at trashing coppers than remodel.

I agree about the coppers, Remodel sucks at that, but comparing to Remodel is not of great significance to this list, since Remodel is a 4-cost.

If we're talking early game, instead of Upgrade you could get Count to trash your hand, or Hunting Party and mostly skip over coppers, and so on, but both of these are ranked lower than Upgrade here. A cantrip also doesn't seem to be especially valuable in the first few turns, where terminal collision is unlikely. Is Upgrade that good for turning Estates into 3-cost in the early game?

I don't know, I just don't see why Upgrade's abilities put it in the top ten, and I am curious to learn what I am failing to understand. There are several other cards in the top 20 that could conceivably be more critical than Upgrade in any given kingdom, like Minion, Avanto and Rebuild.

47
Surprised that Junk Dealer is #2. The other high-rated attacks seem to be much more essential buys.

Also surprised that Upgrade is so high. I love Remodel and its cousins but 'costing exactly one more' is pretty limiting.

48
These lists are really informative, thank you everyone who worked on putting them together.

49
Dominion General Discussion / Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« on: July 14, 2013, 12:32:40 pm »
My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):

Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing

Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
Not sure I'd put Band of Misfits in here; the choices may seem simple, but they will still slow things down significantly for new players, especially since they'll want to look over all the cards each time the would play it.

Pearl Diver is also somewhat meh...I'd maybe put in Vagrant in it's place, with a comment along the lines of "don't worry about what ruins, curses and shelters are, we'll get to them next game" at the start. It's probably slightly worse in these circumstances, but doesn't require a choice from the players (and Pearl Diver's choice is one of the least interesting in the game).

In general, avoid cards that involve decisions while playing them; new players are already making decisions when they buy things, and when they inevitably have clashing terminals and have to figure out which to play. No need to overwhelm them with more complexity. Incidentally, that's my main concern about Embargo, which is itself a tricky card.

I'd also avoid cards that do anomalous things. Monument stands out on your list for the VP tokens; you want them to associate VP with clogging your deck up, not with those little tokens. They can learn the exceptions later; for now stick to the basics of the game.

I'd agree that you want to avoid cards with difficult decisions, but decisions in themselves can add some life to the game. Embargo is a culprit here because you have to anticipate what cards your opponents will want to buy at what stage of the game - and that is too much on your first game. However, with Band of Misfits (and Pearl Diver) it is more a case of 'what do I want right now', and I've found that new players don't find that too difficult to grasp.

I'm not entirely happy with that kingdom though, especially Monument and Worker's Village.


Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds

I like the idea of Armory and Warehouse. Maybe they're easier at first than workshop and cellar, having the card you gain go right on top of your deck and learning to correctly select the cards you want to keep from a larger hand.

They are pretty fun cards for a first game, but there is the inevitable question with Warehouse of 'do I draw three, play another action card and then discard three'. Also, with gainers like Armory and Mine it can also get confusing since you have to remember that the gained card doesn't go in the usual place.

- No shelters, no Colony.
- Grand Market.
- Bazar
- Catacombs
- Mystic
- Venture
- Armory
- Island
- Salvager
- Lookout
- Vagrant

I like this especially Catacombs. Grand Market, Island and Lookout are interesting (risky?) choices. My personal bias says Pearl Diver instead of Vagrant since you haven't introduced ruins etc., and it also combos with Mystic.

Beggar: a Reaction, and defends directly against Rogue. The fact that it gives 3 copper, costs 2 and has additional functionality will suggest that copper is not a great thing to gain, but at the same time it is a boost of $ when they inevitably clutter their decks with junk
Warehouse, Forager: a solid trasher and a sifter, to introduce the 2 key ways of dealing with junk. Will also help them recover if they overplay Beggar
Armory, Worker's Village, Salvager: a gainer, a village and another trasher. This set will be loaded with +buys
Bazaar, Catacombs, Rogue: Village which shows off the relative importance of +coin and +buy, a terminal draw card, and a non-insane attack (the must gain clause prevents it from trashing everybody's deck)
Altar: Reinforces the idea that trashing can be good, and gives a way to get those additional engine pieces. Plus, if they overbuy this, they at least have a way to get rid of it

I don't like Rogue here. I'd save cards that gain from the trash until much later, just to preserve the enjoyment of introducing this unique feature. Also, the interaction with Beggar might be a bit confusing. Beggar in itself, particularly along with Altar and other trash/sift could be good though. Ghost Ship might be an interesting alternative to Rogue, given Beggar. With all the +buy you could probably cut Salvager or Worker's Village due to duplicated basic effects, not sure what you'd introduce instead.

50
Dominion General Discussion / Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« on: July 13, 2013, 11:11:30 am »
My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):

Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing

Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds

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