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51

Goko Dominion Online / Re: So I bought Dominion: Intrigue the other day

« on: March 01, 2013, 01:38:52 pm »

No one needs to own the cards to play on Iso. No one needs the cards to implement an Iso equivalent. At least one person on each Skype call needs to own the cards.

What I meant is that people claiming "I own the cards, I should be able to play online" do have a point. Although I don't think they (we) are entitled to have Goko for free, I do think we should be entitled to use an online platform that decides to be free (for instance, progamming our own), despite Goko having the rights to be the official online platform.

You were not given the license to do so by purchasing the cards.

52

Goko Dominion Online / Re: So I bought Dominion: Intrigue the other day

« on: March 01, 2013, 09:47:45 am »

The physical expansions <> the virtual expansions.

This is not a difficult concept. You are paying for two different things. I'm not even trying to convince you to buy. I still haven't. I won't until they deliver a way to play offline.

But the whole "I should get X because I paid for Y" argument is fundamentally flawed.

I already paid for that chicken, give me that goat too.
I have a receipt here that shows I paid for a taco, where's my pizza?
Look, I spent $4000 on an engagement ring last week, why can't you give me this necklace for free?

53

Goko Dominion Online / Re: So I bought Dominion: Intrigue the other day

« on: February 28, 2013, 11:46:08 am »

Okay, so you are on of those people I was talking about that doesn't understand money. Got it.

Don't quite think that's the same thing. Nice going with the snark, though. Really got me going for a second. Not quite as condescending as I would have put it but hey, we can't all be good at being mean over the internet, right?

Look, based on JOAT's post, he clearly does not understand money. You can defend his point of view if you want, but saying "I already paid for the physical copy of it, give me the virtual" is about as ignorant as you can get. Let's leave the whole "how are you going to prove you bought an expansion" argument alone and look at some facts:

1 - They have to monetize the game in some way (since they are a company intending to be profitable).
2 - They have the right to decide what to monetize and how to monetize it.
3 - You do not have the rights to virtual goods that they create until you pay them for the rights or they explicitly grant them to you for some other reason.
4 - You still have complete access to the physical cards that you have paid for, nothing has been taken away.
5- When you bought your physical cards, there was no transference of rights for the equivalent virtual goods. It doesn't say it on the box, it doesn't say it on the cards, it doesn't say it on the manual.

Deal with it.

54

Goko Dominion Online / Re: So I bought Dominion: Intrigue the other day

« on: February 27, 2013, 08:27:22 pm »

I think the problem is Goko's card/expansion based micro-transaction model. They are charging us to buy virtual versions of cards. Cards I've already payed for in paper form.  When what Goko is offering is:
The ability to play online
matchmaking services
added content (bots, missions, solo/single player content)

Paying for these new services is a little more appealing, but they are giving these things away for free (except some of the single player stuff) and charging for a virtual copy of something I already have. 

Also, it is not exactly a different company (like with WoW and Dominion). RGG sold the rights to Goko, so we are still in a way paying RGG again for a virtual version of something we already have.

Personally, I only avoid Goko because Isotropic is a better/faster interface, and it's free.

Okay, so you are one of those people I was talking about that doesn't understand money. Got it.

55

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 21, 2013, 08:50:16 am »

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

I'm sure there's a way to fix it. I alluded to as much above. Tell me more about what I can and can't do. I can't honestly tell if you think you're proving something or we're just both trying to bait each other into some kind of pointless discussion.

Okay, then my original point stands. Fix it and convince yourself. This is getting rather circular.

56

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 19, 2013, 09:30:35 am »

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

57

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Does the reordering with Oracle have any use?

« on: February 18, 2013, 10:25:14 am »

Doug wanted to be precise and so was. And hey for all he knew I would spring "when you would draw a card" on him someday.

This

A fine example of future proofing in programming.

Goko does the same. It's less about future proofing, more about doing what the card says, I think.

Yes, but they have started to add shortcuts (like Moat). And I think that while they make sense, there is more room for error when you start doing things like this. If you don't want unintended consequences, don't make cards do things they shouldn't, ya' know?

I just don't want to see things 'stream-lined' against the rules and that wind up breaking some edge case that's never been thought up before.

58

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 18, 2013, 08:37:41 am »

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

How difficult is it to just say "well if you switch then you'll get X, Y, or Z"? Apparently really hard I guess. When I tried using Goko my browser kind of exploded on me. Do I have a reason to invest more time in figuring this out? I just figured I could ask people who already know the answer. Keep mocking me though. It's probably the best use of your time.

I'm just glad we're not doing the usual goko discussion.

If your browser exploded, then there's your reason to not switch. Problem solved. Now you'll just have to stop playing when Iso closes.

59

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Does the reordering with Oracle have any use?

« on: February 18, 2013, 08:34:14 am »

Doug wanted to be precise and so was. And hey for all he knew I would spring "when you would draw a card" on him someday.

This

A fine example of future proofing in programming.

60

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?

« on: February 18, 2013, 08:30:49 am »

Also, Isotropic doesnt have to deal with any of the fancy graphics and UI and AI and all those things.

That's a poor excuse. The graphics are NOT fancy or difficult to code. These are very routine things to deal with. 2D UI is pretty well established as to how it should work, and how you are supposed to put things together programming wise.

61

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?

« on: February 15, 2013, 12:54:47 pm »

These are also my problems with it. It's all UI.

I have animations on fast, because I don't want to waste time and be annoyed by watching the animations. But that means I have to open and close the log every damn turn. I think you'd have to have animations on slow and pay super-close attention to avoid that. Or just not care about what the other players do on your turn. I'm sure lots of casual players don't care, but I play competitively.

That log is way more difficult to read than on isotropic. It's just a wall of text with no color or formating, and lots of unnecessary repetition. Talk about a non-graphical interface! Scrolling up is also incredibly wonky. I find myself using the scroll wheel on my mouse, which doesn't work of course. So you have to grab that scrollbar. But it seems when you first click the scrollbar, you're stuck dragging it, even the next time you open the log? I think you have to click again to un-grab?? Something non-intuitive anyway. Really really annoying stuff.

I'm not doing justice to your list, but you're pretty exhaustive, and with each new paragraph I just wonder how this is every going to work if Goko's strategy is to have the player base ask them to fix each and every one of these. These are the kinds of things that make me think when Isotropic goes down I'll just stop playing.

A question to software people...Does anybody have any insight into why Goko has gotten so many of these small things wrong when Isotropic was designed, well, by a guy in a cave with spare parts, etc.? As a non-software-guy, I just don't get how Goko could be biffing so badly when DougZ did it in his spare time.

Honestly, any insights would be fascinating.

My thinking is talent level. 10 entry level programmers are not the same as 1 good programmer. I doubt Goko is using entry level, but all the same, I think if you are going to be breaking new ground (building an HTML5 gaming platform) you really need a high caliber team.

As for the simple things that they miss on, that's definitely an experience thing, in my opinion. You can get a great coder to work on your UI, but if he's not a UI guy, he's probably going to make some pretty obvious mistakes.

62

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 12, 2013, 10:56:01 am »

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

My reply ended up in the other topic.

Also, I play Goko, but I don't see how it's relevant - I only play in the private beta and only against bots.

63

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 12, 2013, 08:59:25 am »

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

64

General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 11, 2013, 04:51:42 pm »

The fact I'm learning programming right now in a public school in the US proves you wrong. I also have Choir as a possibility.

I had programming as an option in HS. I wish I had been interested in it then. I think my kids middle school program is crap though. On a side note, I had his choir teacher way back when for choir too.

65

General Discussion / Re: Education

« on: February 11, 2013, 04:37:03 pm »

EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.

Don't you know, we only teach reading and math in schools now.  At least in the US.

I'm only half joking.

Looking at my 11 year old's curriculum:
Math (year round, good)
Reading (year round, good)
Social Studies (year round, ugh)
Choir (year round, WTF?)
Science (1/2 year, WTF?)
Gym (1/2 year, good)

With as subjective and political as Social Studies is, I would much rather see Science take a half of that year. Or maybe add in History as the objective counter part to Social Studies.

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 04:33:25 pm »

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

67

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 12:40:13 pm »

(and it's not my example).

Oops, sorry. That's what you get by not scrolling up.

No worries.

68

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 12:25:42 pm »

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

Exactly. Conversely, if the site had been a massive success day one, we would still probably be paying those prices, unless they saw a drop in revenue and wanted to grow their consumer base.

EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.

69

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 12:17:19 pm »

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

I wasn't referring to Goko but to the example you brought up. For Gone With the Wind BluRays, competitive markets only exist in countries low on anti-infringement enforcement.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though.

Of course. "Force" would mean "artificially increase demand".

No, it's still a competitive market (and it's not my example).

Take the example to extremes:
You have the option of the classic: Gone With The Wind on BluRay for $1,000.00 or you have like goods: Casablanca on BluRay for $10.00.

I guarantee that the price drops on Gone with the Wind so quickly to a reasonable market price. Even if like goods were not available and price collusion happens, it's a luxury good, and not buying BluRays (most people would not buy $1000.00 BluRays) will force the price to become an acceptable price point or force a new entrepreneurship to occur, either resulting in a new format, or new companies producing like goods for cheaper, both which result in the same thing; a good, comparable to the previous, available at a price point the market deems acceptable.

70

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 11:55:48 am »

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

Supply and demand works with competitive markets, but it also works in an absence of direct competitors where a good is not required.

For instance, if Goko put their prices at $20 an expansion, a few people with lots of extra spending money would bite, but the majority would not. That creates a low demand situation, and the result is that not enough people would buy the expansions to cover Goko's operating costs, so they would lower their prices. The lower prices match consumer's expectations much more than previously, and the demand for an electronic Dominion implementation matches the price point enough to increase the amount of people willing to buy to a point where Goko can sustain itself.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though. That's silly (or maybe it's some odd extension of communism where because Goko needs money we are forced to buy their service to help the economy or something).

If you were just messing around, man, good job, because you confused the pi55 outta me.

71

Goko Dominion Online / Re: So I bought Dominion: Intrigue the other day

« on: February 11, 2013, 11:30:32 am »

It's part of the vast divide between people that understand money and people that don't.

72

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 11:28:17 am »

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

Are you serious?

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

That's the price that people as a whole have deemed okay to pay. If you want them cheaper, start a large global movement where everyone stops buying BluRays until they are the price you want them at.

The downside is, if it is too cheap then they will just stop making them.

73

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 11:14:11 am »

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

I don't claim to know the particulars of their agreement, but I sincerely doubt that it's any difference to Donald (in an immediate financial way) whether Goko fails or thrives. That deal was probably a straight up deal to use the Dominion IP for a one time payment of X to RGG (though I'm sure Donald would prefer his brand thrives in all formats).

Regardless, you live in a society with laws, it's not up to you to decide which laws have weight and which ones fall into some 'good spirit' category. If you want to break the law, go ahead and do what you like. Certain laws are incredibly difficult to enforce and not worth the effort or money, so you can get away with a lot of things that are definitely against the law (like carrying an ice cream cone in you pocket in Kentucky).

But don't kid yourself into thinking you've made a moral decision by paying for X and doing Y.

74

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 10:52:17 am »

There's what's legal under the current laws of the countries, and what I think is in the good spirit of things.

There's three things going on:
1. The intellectual property, the game, its mechanics, how they work, what the cards do, all that jazz. 
2. The paper, cardboard, and other logistics involved in producing the board game.
3. The coding, maintenance, and upkeep of the digital version of the game.

There's legal things you can do that are not in good spirit.  You can make your own set of dominion cards with your own paper and ink, and play dominion with all the expansions that way, and Donald never gets a cent (if you change the wording and art slightly).  I don't think that is in the good spirit of things, Donald worked to design that so that he could get paid something when you benefit from the testing he had to do to figure out that your games were all going to degenerate if Jack could trash treasures.
There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.


You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
Buying the physical board games and making your own dominion server isn't allowed, though.  It is illegal, but in good spirit, because each player pays for #1 at least once.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 


By the way, the guy arguing that a free version of dominion wouldn't happen if it was legal, I don't think you are right.  Personman was willing to donate a thousand dollars or something to keep isotropic up.  There's plenty of interest in the game and, hey, one person has already implemented it before free before, I really think a small group could probably do it too.
The main reason it won't be happening is because it would get shut down for illegality.

It's in good spirit to pay the company that licensed the design, but not the designer himself? You have an odd take on things that are in good spirit. I'm not telling you to buy Goko expansions, I haven't myself. But your living in a dream world if you think that digital access to something should be allowed just because you've already paid for physical access.
Sure, it might work for some company to do this occasionally, but that is something they do knowingly on their own as an added benefit for your dollar.

75

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Iso or Goko?

« on: February 11, 2013, 09:38:57 am »

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

As long as you don't use the original visual arts and the exact wordings for rules text, it is legal.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

Yes, by this logic, you should be allowed to do that, and it should also be allowed to let people know about it as well.

Your argument did not originally include the removal of art and exact wordings.

But yes, go ahead then; create it. And then let us all know about it, and do the coding and maintenance and all that for free. Sounds like a sweet deal for us.