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Messages - Polk5440

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1626
Nice, but probably a bit too close to Stables.

It's true; actually, that was another reason I didn't just have discard Treasure then +4 Cards +1 Action. On the other hand, Council Room plays sufficiently different from Smithy that it's interesting. Maybe the real question is, would Horse Farm be too much like Council Room is to Smithy?

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Also it has the same crazy interaction with Militia/Goons that Governor has, but that's just a personal preference I have against Governor.

I personally love playing Governor-draw or Village-Council Room chains followed by a Militia. But I tend to like faster games, too.

1627
Mini-Set Design Contest / My Challenge #8 Card: Gooseberry/Horse Farm
« on: August 06, 2012, 05:01:19 pm »
I am curious what the community thinks would be an improvement to my submission to the non-attack interaction category of rinkworks's contest. I would like to make the card better because I REALLY like the idea of a Stables externality. It gives opponents an interesting choice involving Treasures/discarding. Tacking it onto a super-Stables for you just made sense. For reference, this is the card I submitted:
----------
Horse Farm (Gooseberry) -- tied for 10th place
Action
Cost: $5

You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
 
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.
-----------

From the comments during the contest it seemed like people thought

1) It was too complicated and 2) it seemed a little weak/externality a little strong.

I agree with 1). I am surprised about 2). Considering Stables and Laboratory are both priced at $5 I would think that as an externality the power would be about the same. I am curious about your opinions on this.

I did think the card was underpowered as just +4 Cards, +1 action plus stables externality, so I added a version of the Hamlet +Buy option to give it a little more strength (which also has the flavor of Horse Traders). But I can see why that just added too much confusion.

How about version B:
------------
Horse Farm (B)
Action
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

You may discard a Treasure. If you do, +4 Cards, +1 Action. 

Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.
------------

This adds a little more power (you get the buy for sure) and reduces the complexity in the text.

1628
Congratulations to Kirian's Amulet! Could see this result coming from a mile away. It's such a nice card. I gave it 2 points, but I am a little disappointed a new non-attack interaction mechanic didn't win since it's such a thin space at the moment.

And actually, I kind of like Dragonfruit as the official name. Or maybe Dragon's Fruit? Dragons like treasure...

1629
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: The Contest Set Card List
« on: August 04, 2012, 02:31:09 pm »
At first I had thought that it would have been interesting if rinkworks had declared a theme for the set at the start of the challenges, but now I think it's more interesting to see different themes emerging as the contest progresses. Maybe a new theme will emerge after the winners of the next set of challenges are announced?

1630
I know that using Potions in an interesting way (explicit or referencing the cost/type) will help it earn my vote.

I will thank you in advance for giving three points to my card, then.  ;D

1631
This challenge has a rule change:  Previously, you couldn't submit the same card to more than a single challenge (although I forgot about the rule and permitted this in a couple of cases).  The new rule is that you can't submit the same card to more than one challenge that is still running.  If you submitted a card to a challenge whose results have been posted, it's fair to resubmit it to another challenge.

Thanks. Maybe we'll see some interesting resubmissions of cards that fit better in other categories!

1632
I have the greatest respect for you, rinkworks, but I say boo to this challenge. If the ultimate goal of all these challenges is to design a small self-contained expansion, it shouldn't require you to own specific other expansions in order to play it. Including a Potion-cost card is basically saying, "If you don't have Alchemy, you can't get full use out of this set."

This challenge would be a fun extra, say for a promo-style card. As far as sets go, I say keep Potions in Alchemy.

I almost +1-ed this, until I realized we've seen extensive use of VP tokens in the submitted cards, which are really just Prosperity. But I agree there is something slightly off-putting about an expansion (even an unsanctioned, fan-made one) requiring a stack of Potion cards for the use of a card or two that just doesn't seem to be present with a requirement for a bag of VP chips.

I guess that's what makes these contests fun -- the categories are structured yet varied, and everyone has their own tastes!

1633
Is it just me, or is the competition getting even stiffer? These cards are great!

I think for this one, my vote will be mostly based on the quality of the interaction element and how it fits in with the rest of the card.

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Raspberry
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.

You must gain the trashed cards; interesting. However, it just seems too niche to be interesting in enough games.

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Lemon
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.

As much as I dislike Possession, I like this card. A really fun-looking interaction where you play your opponent's card, but isn't too mean to your opponents, and it has a nice little gamble built in, too! Not really sure the curse gain is needed, but the concept of this card is really neat. Is this the first card that combos with the ability of other cards that make your opponent reveal his hand? Also, I prefer Lemon over Boysenberry. For some reason that card reminded me of Possession, too.

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Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.

I really like the mechanic of the player to your left choosing something for you. Among Lime, Pear, Blackberry, and Date, I would like Date's simple implementation of the mechanic. . . if it didn't have the potion cost or option!  So I will probably go with Lime, instead. Maybe Lime would be better if the last line instead read: "Then, the player to your left chooses a different option for you to receive"?

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Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

The more I think about this card, the more I like it. It's simple, and I think it would really change the dynamic of a game by adding this interesting incentive to not trash your Estates (even buy more?) and accepting the clog in order to turn your opponent's Kiwi from a Gold that doesn't take up space into a terminal Silver.

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Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.

I just really like the idea of having your opponents get a Stables as an externality (the Lab as externality is so popular, it's almost overdone). Being able to discard a Copper to draw some cards also fits in tangentially with the emerging theme of use of Coppers of the fan set.

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Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

May clog with money or Victory; I like it. With all the choosing, it may slow the game down a little, but I get the feeling it may be worth it! However, as WW notes, it is really strong at $5.

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Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

I think I'm a sucker for Treasure cards, but I really like this cheap Gold with positive externality to opponents for off-set. Seems like it would be playable in more situations than Contraband or Cache. The only downside is the interaction has been done on other existing cards. It would be nice for a new non-attack interaction to win.

I do prefer this over the other Treasure and "others may trash" cards, though.

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Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

And we're back to "how powerful is getting money in hand, anyway"? I do like this idea, though. Nice and simple.

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Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.


I like having to choose something different.

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Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.

I just don't know about this card. I mean, I like the opponents' choice, but for some reason, the card as a whole doesn't seem to be as fun as the existing $6 actions.

1634
Commenting on some later cards (my card is before this point):

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Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

Why is this $3?  Just compare to Remodel.  2-cost: Peach an Estate into a $4, and your opponent can un-Swindle (OK, that's weaker than Remodel, but slightly). 3-cost: Peach an Silver into Gold/Goons... opponent can still un-Swindle (probably about like Remodel's power).  4-cost: Peach a Sea Hag into a Province?  Crazy.  5-cost: Peach a Trading Post into a Province?  Crazy.  6+ cost: Peach a Gold into a Province... could do that with Remodel anyway.  I suppose this would be weaker if Peddler is on the board, but that's one card.

When you Peach the Sea Hag into a Province, opponent gains an Island. When you Peach the Trading Post, opponent gains a Duchy. So really your net gain is 3VP for the Trading Post, 4 for the Hag (except that opponent might actually get to play the Island and improve his deck by -2 greens). If you Bishoped the Trading Post, you'd get +$1 in addition.

So I'm not so sure it's that crazy. But yeah, overall it's probably comparable enough to Remodel to justify a $4 price tag. And yeah you obviously wouldn't want to use it on Gold in a Province game (and it wouldn't necessarily be stellar in a Colony game either).

Peach Gold into Colony (opponents gain Gold or small VP) actually scares me the most.

1635
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Mustard
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may put a Victory card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, +1 Buy, +$2.

Yeah it's too strong (a super-duper Market for $4 and all you have to do is put a green card on your deck? and practically no further penalty if you have two of them in your hand?), but that could easily be fixed by pricing it at $5.

It turns into a Festival when it's activated. It's not even giving you any cycling, because the card has to go on top of your deck and has to be junk. (Ignore Nobles ._.) This card looked really inelegant until I realized it was essentially a Village/Festival split card.

I guess I was reading the card as: if you put a Victory on your deck you get +1 Card, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, and +$2, which is one more Action than Grand Market gives you (hence super-duper market). I see the comparison you are making with Festival because you can't draw more Mustards without help. You draw the green card in hand instead. But you do get one chance to draw another when you play your first Mustard (the Victory goes on the deck AFTER you draw). In addition, if you put a Great Hall on your deck or Nobles, as you mentioned, you get around the restriction, which is something that is hard to ignore completely. And even so, the penalty doesn't really stack in the sense of clogging your next hand with multiple Victory cards (which I also like, but it does make the card stronger).

I do really like the card, but I would want to have it play tested before settling on a cost -- and if it really works at $4, fine. I was imagining it would hit more often than not, and would be generally very helpful. For now, I am sticking to my claim it should cost more. I could be wrong, though. 

1636
Massively better.  First let's establish that "Gain a gold in hand" is the rough equivalent of "+$3; gain a Gold."  Horse Traders is a good comparison here.   What you're saying is that "Gain a Gold" is only slightly better than "+1 Buy."  These are more similar abilities than it first appears, as a gainer is a form of +Buy:   both allow you to get an extra card on that turn.  But to duplicate the effect of a card that gains a Gold, you need "+1 Buy, +$6."  In other words, "Gain a gold in hand; discard two cards" is more than a Platinum better than "+1 Buy; +$3; discard two cards."

Another way to look at it:  Bag of Gold is a Prize-level card, and you don't even get the Gold in hand.  No required discards either, admittedly.  But even "Gain a gold; discard your hand" is a card that's too powerful to be able to open with, and more than Horse Traders typically allows, its specialty being to secure $5 hands reliably.

Good points. I like the way you are thinking about it: "Gain a gold in hand" is the rough equivalent of "+$3; gain a Gold."

I disagree that it's anything similar to +1 Buy, +$6, though, because you don't have to buy Gold in that case; you can buy a LOT of other things (massive increase in choice, which is very, very valuable). I would claim +1 Buy, +$6 is a LOT more powerful than "gain a Gold." Also, gaining money gets progressively worse as the game continues. There is usually a point where gaining money (even Platinums) is completely worthless because the game will end soon.

I just can't see gaining a Gold in hand being more than a Platinum better ever, even at the beginning of the game. To me, this just shows how powerful gaining spending power NOW is, especially late game.

Are there any forum threads on the topic?

1637
Ballot Error:  The entry "Thyme" was originally posted with a cost of $3.  It should have been $4.  I have changed the ballot post accordingly.  Sorry about the error.

Thanks for noting that. I edited my post above.

1638
There are some interesting concepts to think about with this set of cards, and I don't think the answers are as clear-cut as it seems. It seems like people are all over the map on the following questions.

1) How good is gaining money in hand?

A Gold in hand is powerful; but not broken. Horse Traders gives you +$3 and a Buy and forces you to discard 2 cards; it seems like Gold in hand with discarding two cards would be only slightly better.

A Copper in hand gives you +$1 right now; it may be trashed later depending on the kingdom. Certainly, getting a Copper in hand is better than getting in your discard pile, but how much better? Consider:

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Poppy
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Choose one: +1 Card, +$1, or trash a card from your hand.  If you choose...
+1 Card, each other player draws a card.
+$1, each other player gains a Copper in hand.
Trash a card, +1 VP, and each other player may trash a card from his hand.

This card is fun. I do not agree that this card should be labeled attack. Gaining a Copper in hand is about as soft an attack as you can have. Clearly, if it read, "may gain a Copper in hand" then this card would definitely not be an attack. Maybe that would solidify this card as a $4, weakening the second (and usually, but not always, the "strongest" option)? Regardless, the logic seems clear: Having your opponents gain a Copper in hand is the cleanest way of having them gain $1 on their turn. Yeah, it's a little worse, but that shouldn't be too bad, if we think +$1 is generally better than +1 Card. It beats having to make the card a Duration to give opponents +$1, or having to accumulate a token, or gain then trash a Copper, or remembering the bonus. Gaining the Copper in hand seems much better than gaining it in your discard pile.

I admit, because the large space the options span for this card, I would pay $5 for this card as written.

And what about gaining a Silver in hand?

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Cinnamon
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When a player gains a Victory card, you may set this aside. If you do, gain a Silver in hand. Return this to your hand at the start of your next turn.

This is intriguing -- a reaction to something that isn't an attack -- but the Silver in hand just seems too much. I would have preferred "may gain a Copper in hand."


2) How good is +2 Cards, +2 Actions, anyway?

It seems like under current Dominion pricing, +2 Cards, +2 Actions would be a (too stong?) $5. So how to knock it down to size? Or is really not as good as it first appears?

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Marjoram
$4 - Action-Duration
+2 Cards
At the start of your next turn, +2 Actions.

Marjoram doesn't give you the two bonuses together. But, I think this would be fine at $4 if you only got 1 Action next turn (maybe that actually was the intent?). I really like the idea of a Duration Village; but not so sure about a super-Village on the second turn.

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Chervil
$5 - Action
If played for the first time this turn: +2 Cards, +2 actions, +$1.
All other plays: +$1, +2 Actions.

Beefs it up, but doesn't let you stack it. But is stacking really the concern with +2 Cards, +2 Actions? Or is even one enough of an engine enabler to be a problem at $5?

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Mint
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
--
When at least one [This Card] is in play and you gain a Province or Colony, every other player gains a gold, putting it into their hand.

This card offsets it by giving a huge conditional bonus to your opponents (and we're back to question 1). Powerman thinks the card is too strong. WW does not. I just think this card seems too swingy.

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Patchouli
$5 - Action
Gain a Copper, Silver, or Gold in hand.
If you gain a Copper, +2 Cards, +2 Actions.
If you gain a Silver, +1 Action.
If you gain a Gold, discard two cards.

This card offsets it by You gaining a Copper in hand (but how bad is that really? and we're back to question 1). And there is choice -- which adds power (see Quesiton 3) but those choices also bring up question 1! I really like the concept of this card, but I really don't know how evaluate it in terms of strength. But isn't that one mark of a great card? That it takes some playing to figure out?

3) How valuable is choice?

If card with ability X, is correctly priced at $3, and a card with ability Y is correctly priced at $3, it just seems wrong to conclude in general that a card that has ability "Choose one of X or Y" could be priced correctly at anything less than $4. A card that has 2 or 3 (or more) choices seems like it would be more likely to be balanced if no option can stand alone at the price point of the card.

For instance:

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Stevia
$3 - Action
Choose one: +2 Actions, or all players draw up to 6 cards in hand. You may set aside any Treasure cards drawn this way, as you draw them; discard the set aside cards after you finish drawing.
--
(Rules clarification: If the draw option is exercised, only the player who played the card may set aside Treasure cards as he draws up to 6 cards in hand; all other players simply draw up to 6 cards in hand.)

This seems right to me: each ability by itself is weak at $3; but they are in different spaces and synergize together with multiple plays of the card. It takes a LOT of help to be able to consistently make the draw option draw two good Treasures regularly (and this is off-set by allowing your opponents to draw and you hitting Actions and Victories) -- so this is definitely not overpowered. It does contribute interestingly to the Library-engine style card set. I like this card a lot.

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Thyme
$3 $4- Action-Reaction
Choose one: +2 Cards or +3 Actions.
--
When you discard this from play, you may put it on top of your deck.
--
When you discard this other than during a Clean-Up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, set this aside, then at the start of your next turn, return it to your hand.

In contrast, this just seems way over-powered. +3 Actions alone could be priced at $3. It also has the super-ability that just allows it to defy being discarded. Also, see Powerman and WW above. Edit: Now that the price is fixed, I can't call it clearly "way over-powered," but I still don't like the card's aversion to the discard pile, which I still think is a sneaky-powerful ability, and even at $4 still have some power concerns. I would have to play with the card to know for sure.

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Cayenne
$3P - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.

I really like Cayenne, but really wish it was priced without Potion; say, at $5. I'm sure it thematically goes with whatever it's official name is, but still...

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Vanilla
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Action, or discard your hand and draw 4 cards.

I like this card, too. I agree with WW; the best part of Minion.

Saffron, Turmeric, Mace, Fennel, and Sesame are other cards in this category that just seem under-priced because of the power of choice (and I just don't like them that much).

Other Thoughts

There are a lot of good thoughts posted in other comments relating to a lot of other individual cards, but I want to add some thoughts of mine:

I vote no on "permanents" unless it's really interesting. Rosemary and Sage don't cut it for me.

I prefer Cardamom over Coriander, but neither seems like a good enough implementation of Victory as Treasure. The Basil and Anise mechanic seems hard to balance properly. However, interesting idea, and I like Anise better.

Clove is too much like Almoner, as others have said.

Oregano seems to work at $4.

Borage looks like an interesting Cartographer variant that isn't too powerful (like a lot of the ones in the last contest). Being able to reorganize is an under-looked power in cards -- but I agree that another top of the deck improver isn't really needed.

Savory is nicely balanced.

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Savory
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Actions
+$1
Each other player may discard a Treasure card.  If he doesn't, he gains a Copper.

The attack isn't too strong but keeps people thinking -- right up my alley.

Fennel is too cheap, but I like the mechanic, I think.

Paprika seems like a nice riff on Throne Room. By why does this need to be a village?

I must be a vampire because Garlic makes me recoil in fear.

Cumin seems kind of strong. Also, I would rather have an alt VP enabler rather than more alt VP.

There are a lot of villages that are Village + benefit. Of these cards, I really like Mustard.

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Mustard
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may put a Victory card from your hand on top of your deck. If you do, +1 Buy, +$2.

Yeah it's too strong (a super-duper Market for $4 and all you have to do is put a green card on your deck? and practically no further penalty if you have two of them in your hand?), but that could easily be fixed by pricing it at $5.

And lastly, unlike rinkworks, I still can't handle the cards that give four or more different bonuses depending on what happens. But I must be breaking down -- just last week I would have said "three or more different bonuses"...

[One of the cards mentioned is mine.]

1639
Gooseberry: uber-powered for you. I mean, stables with an extra card, or stables with a buy (or rarely a naked buy). And then everyone else can... half-stables? Hmmm, I guess this is too good.

It's a full Stables for your opponents, right? They don't have to play the Stables card. When you play Stables, then discard a Treasure you are down 2 cards, then draw 3, netting 1 card. Here you don't have to play Stables, just discard a Treasure and draw 2, netting 1 card.

1640
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: The Contest Set Card List
« on: July 26, 2012, 09:36:21 pm »
Nice choice for Canal. I was looking around, but didn't find anything that good!

1641
Congratulations to the winners!

I was kind of hoping one of the Treasure cards would win, though (esp. Jewels/Sarah). Maybe there will be a Treasure Challenge in the future? It seems like there is space there for some interesting stuff!

Also, rinkworks, what is the policy of submitting losing cards to future contests? I would like the opportunity to vote for some of the losers again in another category.

1642
I like that Powell goes hunting for Treasure. You could use this ability to set up a slick Powell-Venture chain, or make sure your Loan hits a Copper by playing Powell-Loan. I like that there are possibly many ways to utilize the card. As far as those who are mentioning a “broken” Tunnel interaction – what about Golem-Tunnel with no other actions in your deck? This “break” already exists. It’s just a shame the trick doesn’t work with Chancellor.
Powell doesn't cost a prohibitive $4P and isn't terminal. Powell/Tunnel can start generating Golds for you as early as turn 3 while Golem/Tunnel will, best case scenario, be able to get 2 Golds at turn 5 (assuming the daft opening of Potion/Tunnel, requiring transcendent shuffle luck), let alone that your Golems can later collide to your detriment and aren't producing $1 on their own.
If Powell was worded to get around this issue, I would like it too.

Good point. I thought what people were calling broken was just being able to discard your whole deck + discard at one time.

1643
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 25, 2012, 09:14:30 am »
Yeah, I don't think I'd try Fishing Villages on this kingdom again.

1644
It took me forever to digest the Challenge 5 cards, but here are my thoughts:

Dealing with the Deck, Cartographer-Style

There are so many cards that utilize the put back in any order mechanic! I don’t like most of them, but I would like Hardy a lot if it was priced higher.

Discard Pile Mechanic

I like the idea of utilizing the discard pile, and I don’t really buy that it slows the game down enough to cause a decline in fun if the mechanic is done right. Fields is a lot like Fairbanks, and I like Fairbanks better. I like that Fairbanks is not dead when you don’t have a discard pile (you still get +$2) which is the main reason I don’t play Counting House that much – I always seem to shuffle it to the top of my deck.

Draw and Put Something Back

There are a lot of cards that are similar this time around. Robeson is a lot like Chaplin, but unlike some previous commenters, I think Chaplin is the better balanced version. Reordering is sneaky powerful; but I suppose play testing is in order here to know for sure. Barrymore and Gibson seem really similar, and I would prefer to play games with Barrymore in the kingdom.

Treasure Related

There are a lot of cards that are Treasures, gain Treasures, or manipulate Treasures, and I like a lot of them, especially the following four:

Gilbert is very slick in principle (who doesn’t like to gain Treasures?), but may need to be priced a little lower or have a little buff to it to make it playable more often.

I like the idea of alternate Curses, so I like Jannings, as well, in principle. Yes, it is strong (possibly too strong), but I disagree with previous comments and other threads that it is confusing, or alternate curses can never be playable. If an attack card says “gain a curse” and the Jannnings pile is out, you would have to gain a regular curse, otherwise you would not be satisfying that line of the attack card. I think it is a benefit, not a detriment or broken feature, that it’s a curse that doesn’t clog – it brings down the power level of attacks (which too often are must buys), and there may be an interesting dynamic in a 3-4 player game where you get a couple of rounds of non-clogging curses which doesn’t make the early game so swingy (e.g. not such a big deal that the player to your left flipped your Sea Hag with his Sea Hag). There are only 10 in the supply. Also, can the player being cursed take advantage of the extra Silver and end the game quickly before getting clogged with regular curses and down even more VP than normal attacking games?

I like that Powell goes hunting for Treasure. You could use this ability to set up a slick Powell-Venture chain, or make sure your Loan hits a Copper by playing Powell-Loan. I like that there are possibly many ways to utilize the card. As far as those who are mentioning a “broken” Tunnel interaction – what about Golem-Tunnel with no other actions in your deck? This “break” already exists. It’s just a shame the trick doesn’t work with Chancellor.

Last, but not least, I like Nagel as a more playable Bureaucrat. Not sure about the pricing, though.

[One of the cards mentioned is mine.]

1645
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 23, 2012, 09:19:11 pm »
Anyone else play test Canal?

1646
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 23, 2012, 09:18:36 pm »
How game #2 went:

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Game 2: Moat, Pearl Diver, Duchess, Tunnel, Fishing Village, Loan, Farming Village, Adventurer, Canal, King's Court

I went first, PSE second, Bella Cullen third. For some reason I thought I would not do the obvious thing, so I opened Fishing Village-Loan and then on turns 3 and 4 bought 2 more Fishing Villages. The idea was to get an early $6 and an early Adventurer before grabbing Tunnels and a second Loan, but all it got me was $5 consistently, which was… horrible. I don’t know why I thought an early Adventurer would be a good idea anyway. Especially since there are no extra Buys, so getting behind early is pretty bad on this Kingdom.

Anyway, PSE and Bella Cullen bought various combinations of Tunnels and Farming Villages with one Loan. PSE and I picked up quite a few Tunnels (me later than he). Bella stuck to one or two Tunnels and also bought a Fishing Village, and a couple of Silvers, I think. The Tunnel pile ran out fairly quickly.

Middle game we all got at least one Adventurer. For the greening stage (which came really quickly), it was mostly Provinces and Canals. We were drawing at least $6 almost every turn and the game was certainly ending on Provinces making Canals 4VP.

Game ended on Provinces with PSE winning, Bella second, me third (54-43-31).

This was a fun game where Canal simply served as a better late-game alternative to Duchy when a player had $6 or $7.

1647
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 23, 2012, 09:17:16 pm »
How game 1 went.

Quote
Game 1: Vineyard, Herbalist, Fortune Teller, Develop, Village, Masquerade, Apprentice, Goons, Possession, Canal (with Platinum and Colony, too)

Bella Cullen went first, I went second, pirate ship economist (PSE) went third. Early, we did see Village-Goons as being most important. Bella opened Village-Masquerade, I opened Silver-Masquerade, and PSE, trying to be clever from the third seat, opened Develop-Masquerade. Bella and I pretty much went directly for Village-Goons. PSE tried to use Develop to beat us to the punch; he did have one successful Develop turn early, turning a Potion into an Apprentice and a Silver.

I was able to buy and play a Goons first, playing $6, and buying two Villages and getting +2VP. I was paring my deck down with two Masquerades (I never really got a good chance at picking up an Apprentice early, so I felt like 2 Masques would do the job), so I felt like it was only a matter of time before I double Goons-ed a few times. Develop did not quite pay off for the PSE; he was almost shut out of Villages, getting only 1, and Bella and I split the rest, with me winning the split (Village pile out). I also was doing well with number of Goons bought and paring my deck down, so I felt like I was in a very good position. Also, at this point, my deck was pretty consistently hitting $6 and $7, but for some infuriating reason, even with 5 Villages, they refused to nestle near my Goons when I shuffled. Because of this I kept buying Goons over Gold so my deck never really got to $8. PSE bought 2 Goons, but then started buying Gold over Goons. He top decked two Silvers with Develop and was able to Apprentice two Silvers midgame in order to land a couple of Provinces. Bella was supplementing her Village-Masquerade-Goons-lite strategy with money. Even so, I was in the lead at the midpoint of the game even though PSE and Bella were able to pick up 3 Provinces between them. Also, with all three of us buying Goons, the Goons pile ran out about this time (making Canal cheap).

I realized my deck was not hitting $8, and I had to make a decision on whether to correct that or go for piles and hope to end the game in the lead. The Masquerade pile was down to 5 (Bella had also bought a second Masquerade), so that was the only realistic option. I decided against that because Bella and PSE were starting to buy too many Provinces and I felt it would have taken too long, and I didn’t have that big of a lead. In addition, my deck was thick enough I thought it would take too long to increase its buying power to $8 or greater. Instead, I decided I would try to get a Possession to take advantage of PSE’s buying power in his deck, so I bought a Potion. In addition, I would buy Canals cheap when I didn’t have a better buy in order to hedge against my opponents running Provinces on me too soon. Sadly, on the next two shuffles through my deck, I had to settle for Vineyards when I drew my Potion even though my deck had been so reliable on getting to $7. I also picked up an Apprentice around this time, but I never got an opportunity to play it.

At this point in the game, Canal became a surprisingly attractive target for purchase after a Goons play. Buying 2 Canals and getting +2VP as well was kind of hard to resist for all three of us when we had the chance.

Even with my change in tactic (and failing to land a Province or Possession), and Bella hitting double Goons a couple of times during the game (but deciding to clog her deck too early with Coppers), I felt like I was in good shape. I finally drew Villages and Goons together. My hand was 3 Villages and 2 Goons. Then disaster struck. Bella played Village-Village-Masquerade-Masquerade-Goons. I passed PSE his second and desperately needed Village and a Silver that was passed to me. I discarded down to Village-Goons-Goons. I did get a double Goons turn, but a couple of turns later that Village pass came back to bite me.

PSE played Apprentice, trashing his own Province! He drew 8 cards, resulting in the only two Villages in his deck ending up in his hand. Playing double Village, Goons, Masquerade, Goons, and a lot of Gold, he purchased 2 Provinces and a Canal (getting +6VP). On my turn I decided I was still ahead but things were getting dangerous, so I went to try to end it on Canals. I had a bad draw and left one Canal in the pile, which PSE promptly bought ending the game (Canals empty – became 2 VP each). There were 4 Provinces left in the supply.

The final score was 48-42-30; the PSE had overtaken me! My internal point counter was biased by all the shiny VP tokens on my mat!

This board looked really bad for Canal when we started to play it, but as we kept playing, even though Canal was only briefly in the sweet spot of being $3 and possibly worth 4VP, it added a lot of fun to the middle and endgame that we didn’t see coming. The fact that it was $3, even when we knew it was probably going to be worth only 2VP, made it a very attractive target to buy two of when we had Goons in play and were trying to pick up some extra VP. Afterward, we concluded that Canal was the better alt VP on this board (over Vineyards).

1648
But some of my favorite cards are the ones that benefit opponents (Bishop, Council Room, Vault) or at least require them to be awake and alert during their turn (Tribute, Envoy).

I am right there with you!

1649
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 23, 2012, 08:13:31 am »
Just a tip I got before: Could you edit the original post to include the description for Canal?

It's at the end of the first post on this thread.

1650
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Playtesting: Canal (Challenge #3)
« on: July 22, 2012, 09:23:40 am »
Back to the original topic; what was game two?

Okay, here it is:

Game 2: Moat, Pearl Diver, Duchess, Tunnel, Fishing Village, Loan, Farming Village, Adventurer, Canal, King's Court

How would you play this?

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