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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Anagrams
« on: December 24, 2013, 03:18:33 pm »
3 Zing gok(o)!
I mixed up rats with stables - and to be honest, I love the result
Addict
Cost: Potion - Action
Trash a treasure.
If you do:
+3 Cards
+ 1 Actions
Gain an Addict.
Remark: Similar to Rats, the supply pile should contain like 20 cards.
Design a Kingdom card that would fit into the Guilds expansion. Such a card should have one or more of the following qualities:Why do people forget these things?
Produces Coin tokens.
Has an overpay effect.
Has a 'name a card' mechanic.
Has a bald man on it
Involves Cheesemaking or Ironic Tilling
As anyone will tell you, I am a forgetful kind of guy. Don't forget wordiness! A Guilds card should be wordy.
No, I am not serious. Please don't make your submission complex for the sake of being complex.
QuoteRusty the Donkey
Types: Action Prize
Cost: $0*
+4 Actions. Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: Gain a card with cost up to the number of unused Actions you have (Actions, not Action cards); or gain a card costing up to $4 more than the trashed card; or gain two cards each costing up to $2 more than the trashed card.QuoteStalwart Mule
Types: Action Prize
Cost: $0*
+4 Actions. Gain a card costing up to $1 per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
I am happy to present you with the Secret History of Stalwart Mule also known as Why, Rusty? Why Must Ye Be So Powerful?
Well, believe it or not, my submission started out as Stalwart Mule (the +4 Actions, Gain a card costing up to $1 per unused Action). That was my first thought without any refinement. The goal was to have a prize that would combo with Diadem, but would be useful by itself. Plus, it would be awesome to try to gain Provinces with a workshop variant. Something that would take some setting up, and that could only work as a Prize. Then, the little devil in me thought that it would be fun to add some choices to make it a little more like Trusty Steed (and to give it a name that sounds like Trusty Steed, but dysfunctional). As with 99 percent of my submissions, the additional choices were good ideas, but it was ill-advised to put everything on one card.
At the end of the day, Rusty the Donkey accumulated three choices, and each was a different idea. One of the ideas was a Super Remodel Gain a +$4 more card (Golden Hammer?). The other was a let's-break-this-card-shall-we addition (a SuperDuper Remodel). And, the result was Rusty the Donkey. Everyone's favorite horse-shaped animal, but watch out if he gets going because he'll kick ya in the teeth.
Turns out, the card was good enough with Super Workshop + Super Village by itself (Stalwart Mule), or with Super Remodel by itself (Golden Hammer). I guess I get too excited about all the effects I could dump into one card, and I'm happy people got excited about the individual effects by themselves.
The rest of the Secret History is not so secret. LaFn made the generous offer strip away the brokenness from Rusty the Donkey, and put it on the ballot as Stalwart Mule. I was more than happy that the change was made, because after all, that was my original idea. I'll never be able to prove it, so I suppose the only two people who'll really know what happened are me and Rusty.
I see no reason to doubt your story. On the topic of card design, I do agree you could learn a thing or two from Ivan Chesnokov.
QuoteRusty the Donkey
Types: Action Prize
Cost: $0*
+4 Actions. Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: Gain a card with cost up to the number of unused Actions you have (Actions, not Action cards); or gain a card costing up to $4 more than the trashed card; or gain two cards each costing up to $2 more than the trashed card.QuoteStalwart Mule
Types: Action Prize
Cost: $0*
+4 Actions. Gain a card costing up to $1 per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
For this contest, I'm going to be consistent and say that you can't use mechanics specific to other sets for your Prize card. So no ActionDurationPrize, etc.
Also, even if we have 5 slots open, I'm likely to only allow one Prize, since the larger the Prize pile is, the longer it takes to figure out which Prize to gain when you win a Tournament. I suppose we could have 5 new Prizes and add a rule such that you only put 5 randomly selected Prizes in the pile for each game. I could be convinced of that if we actually have 5 great submissions.
Here's hoping my prize is better than Satan's Workshop.
Satan's workshop? What kind of cards does that gain?
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I think the "cards can be tweaked, vote for concepts you like" is the best aspect of the competition, and submissions and voting should be in line with this. The cards winning competitions this time are more interesting than last time where a lot of slight twists on existing cards won. However I think cards will still be ignored because they look/are imbalanced, undercosted etc. The worst is when a card isn't voted for because it "won't fit the set". Some of the most interesting ideas will come from users who aren't intimately familiar with the balance of the game, or who make a mistake with their proposal. There's also a lot of misconceptions about how a card would work, and clarifying intent BEFORE voting would have been helpful.
Therefore a proposal for future rounds -
Instead of just submitting a card, you submit a concept (the more concise the better), and then submit a "sample card".
For example, a card from the intrigue competiton (not mine) was this:
Tiller
Action - $4
Trash a card from your hand. The player to your left chooses a card in the Supply costing at least $2 more than the trashed card. Gain it.
Now this card is obviously bad because it's strictly worse than remodel for the same cost. I suspect that the creator intended it to be "more than $2 more". However the concept is interesting and I would have gladly voted for it. So the new submission
Tiller:
Concept: A powerful card where someone else chooses the card you gain
Sample card:
Tiller
Action - $4
Trash a card from your hand. The player to your left chooses a card costing at least $2 more for you to gain.
While the card is still imbalanced, it is more explicit that the concept is what's being voted on.
If the idea eventually wins, and it becomes apparent that the set is missing a $2 card, then it could be a $2 card that goes up $3, and if it needs a $5 card, it could remodel up $5 (as examples).
Associated ideas:
* You could leave out costs to emphasise.
* It could be run in rounds, for example
- Concepts you'd like to see (round 1)
- Pick the concept you want to develop (round 2)
- Design parameters (cost? vanilla effect? etc.)
* A good place to start with this would be the "alchemy" round, as I'd like to vote on different ideas for how the potion cost could be used in an interesting way.
I'd like to see the minds of this forum collaborate to make the best attempt at a fan set that adds a significant amount to the game.
Number of responses has gone up to 32. Sounds like LF granted the lazy folk a reprieve.
My theory is that this contest was secretly being operated and funded by the US federal government, and has somehow been deemed "non-essential".
This is another theory:
Also, LF might be sidetracked by pokemon.
Something something, compares all cards to Warehouse, something something.
I have some crazy ideas for this one too, but not particularly well developed.
Just make sure to put the gained ideas on top of your deck!
So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
It could have a cost restriction on both the cards it trashes and cards it gains, no?Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!QuoteCharter (A)This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I agree that the card is so cute, but one of the neat tricks that I like the most is if you amass a bunch of these. Sometimes Charter A will be the top card of the deck. In that case, this is +3 Cards, +1 Action (practically). That's Menagerie-like activation that would be fun to play, I think. Combined with the trashing, and this can get pretty strong. There's also a weird way to piece this reliably together with Watchtower. Namely:
Play Charter A, trash the top card (Charter A), draw your stuff, gain Charter A, reveal Watchtower, put Charter A on top of the deck. Play another Charter A (you have lots of them).
Thinking about it now, maybe it is strong at $4 (a non-terminal, indiscriminate-in-a-way trasher that can't hurt, plus Menagerie activation when you hit), but possibly costing at $5 will work, too. On other tweaks, I don't like the cost restrictions on the gain. Namely, it is unfun to trash your own Province as the card is written because this is essentially a Great Hall or a curselessFamiliar when good stuff is on top without the cost restriction. For that reason, I don't think this card needs to be potentially dangerous to play.
Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!QuoteCharter (A)This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Most concerning: One problematic card that you missed is Stonemason. Hitting $6 for a Stonemason and two DMs seems pretty darn strong. Talisman is also! You'd trash the first one, but gain the second. I definitely think that Band of Misfits should be counted, since it can act like DM easily. Rogue is also pretty easy combo, since DM trashes on-buy.
Otherwise, you make good points. But, I think I end up with a different conclusion. The way I see it, DM could be WAY overpowered with cheap gainers like Workshop, Ironworks, and Armory. And, it could be mildly OP with some other gainers. To me, it goes beyond "combo" territory and into "broken interaction" territory. But, that's not to say it's not salvageable -- with some minor tweaks of vanilla bonuses, it could be a very reasonable card.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
Uh, yeah, you're right. I hate probability.
Thursday's Card:QuoteDanse Macabre[...snip...]
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Ok, now how about games where it can be gained. Here, I worry that this would just stack way too well, especially with Workshop-like cards that can gain a ton of these. 2 Labs is nothing to sneeze at, especially from a card that you can mass easily and use the "wasted action" on another weak card. If this were to win, I could see tweaking the vanilla bonuses -- maybe something like +3 Cards, +2 Actions would be more reasonable? Maybe it's ok as it is. I do like that this can be a counter to Ruins, which is nice.
[...snip...]