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Messages - DrFlux

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101
Dominion Articles / Re: Bishop
« on: November 17, 2012, 11:00:32 am »
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.

I also disagree that smithy-treasure is the most important example of you want to worry about with bishop. I think the times you really want to avoid bishop is when there is something like Kings-Court Bridge on the board, any your priority is the combo, and the trashing will DEFINITELY help your opponent.

Quote
The first step with Bishop is to realize this is NOT an early game trasher. Yes, I'll say it, opening with bishop is almost always bad, even terrible (exceptions discussed below).

This is actually a more difficult judgement. The points from the bishop are worth the free trashing if the opponent cannot harness the better deck. This might be the case when there are no strong terminal cards for the opponent to use and there is very little opportunity cost in taking the bishop instead of a different terminal. You are correct though that there are many times when the free trashing will accelerate the opponent's deck a great deal. The classic example would be that a smithy+treasure deck should beat a bishop+treasure deck since the smithy can harness the honed treasure deck so well. There are however situations where the trashing given to your opponent isn't so generous. This might be when the opponent has a trasher of their own like salvager, a card that can use estates/copper such as a baron, or is looking for alternative scoring such as gardens.

Multiplayer bishop games can be doubly tricky since it becomes harder to work out how quickly decks will slim down or spend upwards when multiple cards may be trashed from hand each turn. There can certainly be games where the opponents dictate the style an speed of the game with the bishops and you need to adjust your play accordingly.

102
Dominion Articles / Re: Bishop
« on: November 17, 2012, 10:49:53 am »
Perhaps "almost never" is a bit too strong, but I think Ednever has the percentages about right. I think what I needed to comment on is the fact that I see people ALMOST ALWAYS open with bishop. And I think most of the time, that is somewhere between slightly wrong, and plain awful. What does buying bishop first turn gain you, as opposed to buying it 3rd or 4th turn? Flexibility - no. Economy - no. All it gains you is a slight headstart in VP, and most of the time that does not matter.

People saying that "using your opponent's bishop will keep you from getting to 5 or 6 too": this is just wrong. You can have a silver or a caravan in your hand instead of your bishop, and you WILL reach 5 more often. You can trash an estate from your opponent's bishop for free, and you can always choose not to trash if you have 5 and no estates. With cards like Wharf or Minion or Lab or even Haggler at 5, it is just really important to hit 5, and I think people underestimate this.

People are free to disagree with this idea, but I will claim that rethinking bishop is one of the reasons I've gone from rank 38 to rank 43 recently: I win a lot of games with bishop.






My vote is in between:

When bishop appears

20%- you don't want it
50%- you want it, but not as an open
30%- you want to open with it

I reserve the right to totally change that opinion. But that's my instinct based on a terrible memory of fakes played.

Also agree it's one of the highest skill cards. I know it took me a long long time to figure out how to play it effectively.

Ed

103
Dominion Articles / Bishop
« on: November 16, 2012, 07:49:46 pm »
I just realized that bishop had not been written about in some time, and that I was winning a lot with bishop. So I thought I'd share some insights. So here it is, let me know what you think:

Bishop is a high skill card. Sometimes it is a must buy card, and sometimes it is nearly useless, and it is often tricky to figure out if you should buy bishop, and when. Usually you DO want bishop: unless there are no villages and there are other desirable terminals, having a bishop mid/late game is almost always good, as it can give you control of the game. Cannibalizing a gold on the same turn as buying a province is often a winning move.

When don't you want bishop? I would say there are 3 rough cases:
  • There are no villages, and there are stronger terminals, particularly terminal draw. Without extra cards and actions, you are less likely to be able to match up cards you want to trash with your bishop late-game, and the loss of economy hurts more. Also, getting rid of starting estates is very nice for the terminal draw player.
  • Very fast, strong combos: If the game is about playing KC on bridges, or about playing multiple Goons together, a couple of extra points from Bishop probably won't matter, and you should just focus on comboing as quickly as possible, using your opponent's Bishop to your advantage.
  • Cursers: if you are cursing an opponent, it is often counterproductive to give them the opportunity to trash those curses, especially early in the game. Exceptions to this do occur, as occasionally a game can get drawn out by curses to the point that its worth it to snag those extra VP from Bishop, eventually. Figuring out when to buy bishops in this case is quite subtle.


When do you want to buy bishop? Something counter-intuitive about bishop is that it is usually NOT an good early game trasher. Yes, I'll say it, opening with bishop is often bad (exceptions discussed below). Early game, bishop has two big things working against it: First, it only gives you $1, which can strongly hamper your ability to buy $5 and $6 cards. Second, [it gives your opponent just as much trashing as it gives you]. In fact, its a little better for your opponent, because they have 5 cards to choose from, and you only have 4. So the trashing is basically a wash, and you should not consider this an advantage. In other words, early game you can view bishop as a card that gives you only $1,+2VP when you draw it with an estate, and $0,+1VP when you draw it with a copper and no estate. This is TERRIBLE.

Bishop is still great, but it is a trasher you usually want to buy mid or late game. This is especially true in engine games, where the free trashing is even more useful to your opponent than it is to you. As the game, goes on, bishop's benefit to your opponent steadily decreases. I often buy it the first $4 I get after turn 3. As they buy more stuff, and perhaps trash cards, there is a greater chance they will have nothing to trash. And even trashing copper is painful sometime midgame, as it can keep you from buying critical cards. However, in engine games bishop is still useful to YOU in the midgame as a trasher, as you are drawing a large selection of cards. You can even trash junk that was useful early game, but is less useful now, like spice merchant or potion, and it will give you a very nice VP boost.

Obviously, bishop is good with the cards any trash-for-benifit card is: peddler, boarder village, haggler, hoard, these all shine with bishop, especially the first three, as they are easily incorporated into engine decks. Even less flashy ways of gaining cards such as ironworks or even talisman can be used to gain bishop fodder in a tight deck. Good dark ages combos include Rats and Market Square and Fortress. Specific interactions that HURT bishop include "draw up to X" cards. For example, Jack of All Trades can allow the jack player to trash a card, and still draw back up to 5, and likely draw an even better card than they started with.

What makes bishop unique, like goons, is that it can be used to gain a large amount of points without putting green into your deck. So while it can be used to canibalize your deck and get a last minute VP boost, it can also be used to create a very slim deck, often called the "Golden Deck". The cannonical golden deck is one gold, two silver, a bishop and a province. If you get to this point, you can trash a province and buy a province every turn, gaining 5 VP and drawing the same 5 card hand. This may not be as sexy as gaining 150 points with Goons, but in many games this is very strong. However, getting to the "golden deck" is slow in many games. The best start for the golden deck is bishop/chapel. There are other circumstances where you can get to the golden deck, but few others where I would force it. Just keep in mind that if your deck is getting really small, it is an option.

A few comments about the "golden deck". First is that once you go for it, you are basically stuck, so you better be sure its the strongest strategy. You are limited to 5 VP per turn, so strong engines that can buy multiple provinces a turn WILL likely beat you. Second is that there are often stronger variations on the golden deck, for example, I played a game where I bought border villages, gaining markets, while my opponent went for the canonical golden deck. While they got the early lead, at some point I was able to play two bishops per turn, trashing two BV/gold, and buy two replacements. I was able to avoid buying victory cards to stretch out the game, which is another strategy available with bishop that you want to take advantage of if you know you can win the long game. Fortress produces a super-powered alternate "golden deck", with four bishops and four fortresses in your deck, you can snag 12 VP per turn, every turn, with no luck involved, by repeatedly trashing the same fortress.

Works with:
- chapel
- border village, farmland
- gainers: hoard, market square, rats, ironworks, tunnel, etc
- fortress
- engines

Doesn't work with:
- opponents "draw to X" cards (Jack, Watchtower, Library)
- very strong combos which generate more VP (goons, bridge combos)
- opening (in many games)
- curses or ruins
- the golden deck does not work against strong engines

104
Dominion Articles / Re: Bandit Camp
« on: November 15, 2012, 02:07:49 pm »
I don't think Bandit Camp is Amazing in BM, but I think you discount it too completely.

I wouldn't buy it with smithy or margrave in BM, but I might if I got an early 5 for any of the following:
courtyard, jack, vault, any non-drawing terminal (say merchant ship).

Note that the main part is that all of these have ways of avoiding collisions.

Really the question is whether you would wait an extra shuffle for your buy to be a gold instead of a silver. In some cases the answer is going to be no, in some cases yes. And it may randomly allow your terminals to not clash, though in BM, I would not count on this.

Oh, and it think it might be better than a gold with Wharf BM(ish) too. Because most turns you are going start with 7 cards, you have a better chance of drawing it along with a wharf, even though you are not REALLY trying to draw your deck. Your reshuffles will happen faster too, so you will see your Spoils quite quickly.

105
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Talisman -- oh how little we meet
« on: November 06, 2012, 11:04:00 am »
I buy talisman somewhat often if there is caravan on the board and no power $5.

People have also correctly identified that talisman can be powerful with +buys, because there is a multiplication effect. For this reason, I often snag a talisman in engine games with hamlet, because Oh look, I've got $6, three buys and a talisman, and yes I'll buy the six remaining hamlets. This can be critical, especially if hamlet is the only village. Other similar situations can occur, but hamlet has all the critical pieces in one (cheap,+buy,critical engine piece). Obviously +buy makes talisman good at piling out too.

But yeah, it takes a lot of things to go right together for talisman to be right. Its even narrower than workshop, which still allows you to buy a $5 AND use the workshop to get a 4, not to mention the VP thing. Although occasionally the lack of requiring an action is nice.

106
Dominion Articles / Re: Mystic
« on: November 01, 2012, 10:00:57 am »
I agree with both of these comments. However, one addition: people underestimate the effect of getting bad cards out of your next hand. Unless I'm trying to continue an action chain, or its very late game, I would wish for a copper with $6 already, even if there is no $7 on the board. Why? Well, say I have the following left in my deck

5 coppers
1 gold
1 silver
1 smithy
2 estates

I would say that a 50% chance of getting a copper out of my NEXT hand is better than a 10% chance of getting a province rather than a gold this turn (and the silver/gold wouldn't be available that next turn). Of course, each situation varies, but if you have no extra buys, I find its often better to err on the side of just improving your next hand.

On the other hand, if you already have extra actions/buys, by all means shoot for the moon and wish for an envoy/smithy, etc.



When DA was first leaked, I thought the best comparison for Mystic was with Silver+ cards.  Even though it's an action, it is very similar to a Silver with a Wishing Well bonus.
Still, if Card X gives you knowledge of the top of your deck, then Card X + Mystic will give you +$2 and replaces Card X.  So unless Card X is doing more than just enabling Mystic, this is more of a nombo and you're better off with Silver.

I think this is an important point to make that the article doesn't. If you play a Scout (without hitting and Victory cards) to enable 1 Mystic, in total you're going to end up with $2 and 4 cards in your hand with an Action to spend. That's equivalent to having a Silver in your hand (plus some knowledge of the top of your deck). But, it's usually not worth buying a $5 card (Mystic) and a $4 card (Scout) to get the effect of a Silver. If you'll have more Victory cards than normal this may be worthwhile to use Scout better, but otherwise is a nombo. More generally, you need to get a decent benefit from your topdeck-seer to make it worth trying to combo. Otherwise, you are losing out on a large opportunity cost that you could have used to get something else.

You briefly touch on it at the end of the article, but I think you need to put more emphasis on what to do when you don't know what the top card of your deck is. Sometimes you should wish for the most likely card, and sometimes you should wish for the card that would help you most. Don't wish for a Copper if it would take you from $6 to $7 with no $7 cards on the board - wish for a Silver or something else more useful. This type of thing is discussed in the Wishing Well article, and would be good to reconsider here.

Finally, guided's first comment on that same Wishing Well article is interesting to consider, and something like it might be worth including in this article.

107
Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Black Market
« on: October 29, 2012, 12:46:03 pm »
I think the difference in variance between RL and Iso for black market don't really matter that much: If you get a curser turn 3 and your opponent doesn't, it doesn't really matter that much whether your opponent gets a curser turn 6 or not. Mostly they are screwed either way. Same thing with a lot of cards: getting them early is very important. I think Black Market has massive variance regardless of the platform.

108
Dominion Articles / Re: Band of Misfits
« on: October 29, 2012, 10:22:40 am »
Of course I knew that. The combo just makes BoM better, because Procession is so conditional usually (easy to draw dead).

109
Dominion Articles / Re: Band of Misfits
« on: October 29, 2012, 09:39:04 am »
Just played a couple games of BoM + Procession, and man is this a good combination on some boards. One board had money lender and smithy as well, as well as Altar, Squire, and market square to make a nice sequence. The real power of BoM really does come from powerful, conditional $4's, as conditional $4's rarely run out of the supply.

Obviously the board I had was ridiculous, but even just having say baron AND moneylender, or salvager+cheap-engine-component, seems worth 5.

110
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Courier: A single card kingdom
« on: October 27, 2012, 09:59:51 am »
You wouldn't need a slot for the card at all. Just use the "blue" card as a placeholder, since the pile would never empty anyways.

111
Dominion Articles / Re: Intrigue: Upgrade
« on: October 26, 2012, 11:19:54 am »
Also if you add colonies to the board, the upgrade/GM plan is just infinitely better, so the example is probably just fine as is.

112
Dominion Articles / Re: Intrigue: Upgrade
« on: October 26, 2012, 11:15:08 am »
I think flexibility is often important in dominion. Say those three cards are available. I would likely open silver/smithy, and if I got an early gold turn 3 or 4, I would be BM all the way. But say I get a $5 turn 3, do I just buy a silver? An upgrade seems better, and at very least will have a good shot at turning estates in silvers. If I got $5 turn 4 as well? I'd totally just switch over to upgrading. Its a little slower at first, but can have the capacity to buy province + duchy or provincex2 at the end.

But I don't have data on this to be SURE its better. you could probably rig your start condition to compare the two strategies (under the condition of two 5s turn 3 and 4) but it would be tricky.

Maybe a better example would just be if there WERE villages available, you would open silver/smithy, and later in the game you might want to upgrade the SILVER into a smithy.

Are you sure that Smithy/Silver transitioned to upgrade/grand market is faster than smithy/silver?

113
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Combo: Farmland + Embargo
« on: October 24, 2012, 02:13:15 pm »
I think that in almost every game with farmland, if I draw a $9 hand, I will farmland a gold into a farmland. The reason is that a farmland in your hand is worth $2 because it makes a province only cost six. So think of it as turning your silver or gold into a harem... which seems like a good trade any time you'd want a province anyways. Of course, if you draw $5+farmland, it is bad, so you have to decide how consistently your deck is going to hit the six needed.

If you have a way of generating gold, such as tunnel, it seems even better.

Similarly, on the topic of buying farmland over gold, I would say its also usually worth whenever you are to the point of buying provinces somewhat consistently. This is especially true when you can remodel into a key component.

As with anything, farmland tricks get more attractive if you are behind. If you need extra points to win, you need extra points to win.

I would consider this embargo trick on the board suggested, because jack gives you lots of money and gets rid of your estates. However, on some other BM boards (say smithy or margrave), I think you risk hitting 8 less consistently if you pull this trick early. I would probably buy 2 golds before I did this.



114
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Wandering minstrel - A trap ?
« on: October 18, 2012, 02:33:22 pm »
I LOVE wandering minstrel, especially in engine games with weak/no-trashing. You shouldn't be buying villages if you are buying a lot of money anyway.

WM does lead to one tricky situation: it does lead often to the case where you filter through your deck and have a bit of draw left, but that draw will shuffle those coppers/estates back into your deck. In that case you just need to weigh things carefully: is the extra $2-3 worth the bad turn after that? But if you can get enough draw to get your whole deck, it doesn't matter.

I think in engine games, WM acts like a cartographer with an extra +1 action, for only $4, because in an engine I would often even choose to discard silvers or golds in favor of drawing only actions anyways. Love it love it love it.

115
Dominion Articles / Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« on: October 03, 2012, 01:30:25 pm »
Quote
That being said, Ironmonger tends to be a bit better than most other spammable cantrips, because early in your engine build, Ironmonger is likely to hit copper and estates, cycling your deck a bit and giving you the more powerful effects; later, as you trim your deck, set up filtering, and/or increase action density, Ironmonger gives you the +actions you need.

I like this comment, and I think that it points out that Ironmonger is good in engines as an opener. Many engines have the dilemma of whether to buy silver early that the deck won't really want later, or to risk not having enough early game buying power. This card is a good alternative. I'd be psyched to open ironmonger/ambassador, ironmonger/steward on a board with key 5's like witch or wharf.

I think a good comparison is Shanty Town... I think if you spam it in an engine, whether you are hoping for +actions or not, you are going to be disappointed. However, like Shanty town, it is excellent as an opening accelerator and source of resources, and later on may still play a roll in getting you your +actions.




116
Dominion Articles / Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« on: October 03, 2012, 01:13:35 pm »
Its actually better than a lab early on. When you turn over a copper, its equivalent to a lab, because you discard the copper and get +$1, so its just like drawing it. When you turn over an estate, you draw a card AND you get to discard the estate, so that's actually just as good as +3 cards, +1 action. However, as you get more of them, you hit actions more often, and then its usually just a village, because the action is nearly always something you want to keep. It isn't very good as a village, as you want to be able to depend on your villages giving you + actions. Turning over an action means that particular action isn't in your hand, if you turn over a terminal drawer with the monger, you will be sad.

It is okay in money as it will usually be a peddler or a lab, but probably isn't worth it if you are planning on using terminal draw.

That's really the question about Ironmonger: where exactly does it fit in?

My judgements so far:
- good with dual type, particularly nobles, whose flexibility can make up a bit for the fact that you don't know when it will be a village
- fairly good in money decks that don't require terminal draw (goons, etc)
- good with alt VP where your greener deck makes it more likely for it to act like +3 cards

NOTE: its a significantly better opener in estate games, as compared to shelter games.

117
Dominion Articles / Re: A novel Pin
« on: October 03, 2012, 10:59:32 am »
Very interesting post.

The one challenge I have to this is that you don't need to "pin" your opponent to attack them. Discard + masq is a well known way to steal good cards from your opponent while feeding them garbage. Like all pins, the challenge is that your opponent is probably trying to attack you as well. In practice you'd have to feel out when/whether it was worth it to get a beggar to be able to have garbage to pass.

On the other hand, the capacity of this pin to steal all of the opponents cards seems very relevant against opponents who try to ignore the engine and "power through". On the other hand, I'm pretty sure opening masq, into courtyards+money gets 4 provinces in about 12 turns. You could probably get the lock before they get 8, but its a little close.

118
Game Reports / Re: Anti-Ambassador Counter Lemonade Stand
« on: August 31, 2012, 02:32:02 pm »
This board is a typical example of ambassador being bad when there's no engine to transition to. It doesn't need to be a good engine necessarily, but one has to be there. Although I don't think ambassador into treasure map would be horrible here, better than just straight buying money, which is what your opponent ended up doing mostly.

I think on this board I would have hit the barons and gardens really hard, probably forget about mine/saboteur. As it was, you could have bought more gardens, as they were worth more than duchies, and with a little effort you could have gotten them up to 5 points a piece.


119
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« on: August 30, 2012, 08:55:37 am »
I find it amusing that Donald really answered all the rules questions on page 1, and yet somehow there were 16 pages of dialog on this thread.

120
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: August 21, 2012, 01:58:12 pm »
Minion should set off red flags every time you see it saying "buy me". Maybe not quite as much as cursers or wharf, but its really good if you get lots of them. It doesn't really need it, but it gets even better with other support like trashers/pawn/FV/villages-in-general.

121
I think counterfeit is better in engines, but still good in BM. Using it to trash copper is still an improvement in average value, and gets you a silver in value immediately. Late game multiple counterfeits could lead to some awesome game ending turns.

I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony

But only at the end when you don't need that Platinum anymore. BM wants to keep its power treasures.

122
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Rules FAQ.
« on: August 16, 2012, 08:39:20 pm »
Hi All,

Is there a place we can find the rules faq online? I've ordered my copy, but I'm impatient.

In related news: how exactly does ambassador work with ruins (or knight)? Presumably you can return your "abandoned mine(s)", but what happens then? Do 0, 1 or all other players gain a ruins?

123
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Thank you to dougz and isotropic.
« on: August 14, 2012, 08:02:02 pm »
I also am no expert on who does what in the isotropic community, so feel free to help me out!

124
Dominion General Discussion / Thank you to dougz and isotropic.
« on: August 14, 2012, 08:00:08 pm »
There has been a lot of complaining about the move over to fun sockets. While I am optimistic that fun dominion play will go on, I think there has been an aspect of this anxiety that has been overlooked. The community built on isotropic+dominionstrategy+councilroom (plus the sims too) is awesome, and most of the complaining comes from how good this community is, and anxiety that it will change. I think that community will change a bit, but ultimately still be pretty awesome, and continue to grow.

However, that argument is not the point of this thread. Rather, its to thank the people involved in this community: particularly dougz, theory, and of course Donald X. Vaccarino. How cool is it that a game designer is so involved in the community and let us have years of online dominion without seeing a penny. How cool is it that people are willing to host servers, write elaborate code, and write strategy articles, all for such an awesome game, and for no profit.

So Lets say thank you, to all the people who have made this community awesome.

125
Rats!

Well... very very interesting thing that Donald said this is his favorite card.

I cannot really think about this card in the new setting. Let me ask the "conventional" question: is this card any good with 9 other kingdom cards that are from hinterlands or before?

I think rats is VERY good with upgrade or apprentice. With either, the rats eat up the chaff, and the additional card eats the rats AND provides some good other benefits. Other trashing cards could work as well, but since rats give you cards when trashed, cantrip ones are better (or you could add a village to say... remake, but in that case I might just buy remake and not mess with rats).

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