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Messages - Ingix

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201
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« on: January 22, 2020, 12:38:24 pm »
Right, but that's not part of the game: There is no rule that says that an Enchanted card should be replaced with a Pig card (and there is no Pig card). That's just a graphic representation chosen by the developer of the online client.

And the reason was that we were getting lots of bug repoprts that said "card XYZ is not working, see my game number ...". Then it turned out there was an Enchantress played, that of course stopped the card XYZ doing what it normally does. This was due to several factors; the main one being the game doesn't show cards in play from the non-active player, so players could simply not see their opponent's Enchantress as they could in RL play.

So the choice was made to make it very clear that, if you are affected by an opponent's Enchantress, you can see that in advance in your personal status bar, and, most importantly, when you wanted to click on the first Action card that turn, you would see the Pig picture and be reminded that you get +1 Card, +1 Action.

202
Rules Questions / Re: Cards that move a card twice
« on: January 15, 2020, 02:19:06 am »
I'm not seeing how Warrior fits into that category.
It my physically discard the same card twice, but then there needs to be a shuffle in between, so it's identity is lost.

OTOH, Herald and Golem seems to fit: First revealing card(s) from your deck, then playing it/them (seems to be a similar mechanism to Summon).

203
Rules Questions / Re: Help to check logic re: Lantern and Inheritance
« on: January 12, 2020, 01:53:32 pm »
They all look correct to me.

OTOH, do you really think players will mix pre- and post- 2019 errata versions of different cards?

204
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Matching problems?
« on: December 26, 2019, 05:34:26 pm »
What Watno wrote. Since informing of subscriptions running out is non-existent, many players 'discover' that when they want to match and have "wait for expansions" selected and it now takes much longer.

205
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Bug with Tower?
« on: December 25, 2019, 04:03:05 pm »
Still confusing, and I had this in a bot game as well (showed 1VP when I had all ten cards from a pile).

@Spineflu: Do you rememeber if the game also contained Ambassador?

206
Rules Questions / Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« on: December 14, 2019, 02:06:35 am »
Counterfeit is a "Throne-like" card. So it stays out as long as the Duration card (Merchant Ship) it double played. The Duration card didn't stay out (it left play even earlier than Cleanup), so there is no reason for Counterfeit to stay out. That means, unfortunately, that you''ll  need to remember the Merchant Ship effect next turn without a tracking mechanism.

207
Rules Questions / Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« on: December 09, 2019, 02:07:34 pm »
If I understand it right, if a necromancer plays a Band of Misfits from the trash, and that Band of Misfits plays a Throne Room from the supply, and that Throne Room plays a duration, the Necromancer also stays out, correct? The Band of Misfits would have stayed out since the Throne Room it plays would have, and the Necromancer stays out because the Band of Misfits it plays would have stayed out.

Exactly (under the assumption that the Duration stays out). If you want to find out if a given card stays out, you apply the rules 'forward' (Is the card a Duartion, Throne-like or BoM-like? If yes, look if the rule for it applies, and if it is a Throne- or BoM-like, that will involve looking at the card(s) it played, recursively). In this case:

Necromancer plays Band of Misfits, stays out if Band of Misfits would stay out.
Band of Misfits plays Throne Room, stays out if Throne Room would stay out.
Throne Room plays Duration, stays out if Duration stays out.
Duration stays out (directly determined by the effect it has, or maybe other criteria if it is a BoM-like as well (Captain))

So if the Duration stays out, so will Necromancer, Band of Misfits and Throne Room.

208
Rules Questions / Re: Necromancer + Band of Misfits + Duration
« on: December 09, 2019, 04:39:03 am »
On the original question, mxdata is right. From the errata:

Quote
Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play.
...
These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

So the Necromancer cares about then when Band of Misfits would leave play. But by the same rule, that Band of Misfits cares about when Fishing Village would leave play. The Fishing Village would leave play on your next turn, not this turn. That means the Band of Misfits would leave play on your next turn as well. That means the (actually in play) Necromancer will leave play on your next turn.

ADDED: Note that this scenario with one "plays a card but doesn't put it into play" card (Necromancer) playing another such card (Band of Misfits) only works when one is a Necromancer or inherited Estate (must be the second), because they are not Command cards (additional part of the errata). Overlord for example can't play a Band of Misfits any more.

On the face down question from mxdata, Dominionaer has the answer and reasoning exactly right.

209
I can confirm the first bug, I could reproduce it in game 33117855. After

Crown --> Scepter --> (existing) Crown --> Silver (doubled by Crown)

the game locked. The game should coutinue with the second playing of Scepter, letting me choose between getting +$2 or replaying an Action, but (as OP said) it locks and on reload the spinng castle happens.

The scenario of what you really wanted to do seemed to work better, though.

In game 33117996 I played King's Court --> Smithy, then in the buy phase

1st Crown --> Scepter --> (existing) King's Court --> 2nd Crown -> 1st Silver (doubled by Crown), 2nd Silver (doubled by Crown), 3rd Silver (doubled by Crown), then second playing of Scepter -->  (existing) King's Court --> 3rd Crown

but then I had no more Treasure in  hand to actually double with the 3rd Crown. So it's not a full check, but it seems to go along well. Note that there is a difference to the first scenario: Scepter never plays the Crown that played it itself, it plays the King's Court that then plays a new Crown.

210
Dominion League / Re: Season 37 - Signups
« on: November 18, 2019, 10:28:15 am »
Returning player
Dominion.games: Ingix
Discord: @Ingix#4543
Timezone: Europe/Berlin
Played last in S35 D2, finished 6th  :-[

211
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Why is the server so fuct right now?
« on: November 11, 2019, 04:38:00 am »
I had one day in the last week where Oregon was laggy for me. I told Stef and he said later that he rebootet it, but had no problems himself . So maybe it was just my connection to America that was for whatever reason slow (from Germany, playing on Frankfurt was fine).

Usually when a server is slow, the messages from players pile up on discord, so then it becomes clear that the server is the problem and not some connection. So in this case, my guess would be some intermediate connection slowness that Honkeyfresh may have no control over. Especially if the opponent's timed out.

212
Rules Questions / Re: may look
« on: November 05, 2019, 03:48:57 am »
I guess the difference could also be more due to "layout space on Haven is tight". Also, a quick search through the Seaside rulebook (2E) does not seem to give a general rule for looking at set aside cards, this seems to be always explained in the card specific sections.

So with the intent to have players needing to consult the rulebook as little as possible, putting the "you may look" text on Native Village makes sense, as the player doesn't know which card they set aside until after the fact. If you are unsure, you might think you only find out what the cards are when you take them into your hand later (a mistake I made for Research, for example).

For Haven, the ability to look at the card is just a way to remind you what you put under it, it's not strictly new information. Nevertheless the rulebook spells it out under the section for Haven.

So the difference I think is based on a combination of what text would nicely fit on the card and where it was likely to clear up confusion.

213
Rules Questions / Re: Multiple things happening at the same time
« on: October 06, 2019, 12:27:17 pm »
The 2E Dominion rulebook says the following:

> When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order starting with
> the player whose turn it is. For example, when a player plays Witch, the other players gain Curses
> in turn order, which may matter if the Curses run out.

> When two things happen to one player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them,
> even if some are mandatory and some are not. This can come up with expansions.

So I'm pretty sure about turn order starting with current player really being correct.

214
Rules Questions / Re: Multiple things happening at the same time
« on: October 06, 2019, 04:24:21 am »
From your formulation of pinciples, 1) with "multiple cards resolve" sounds a bit off, I think "multipele effects resolve" would be the better formulation.

Let's start with Q1.
The correct answer is A2 (current player gets the one remaining Curse). Turn order is turn order, even if the effect originated from a card not belonging to the current player.

Let's move on to Q2.
All your detailed event listings are wrong, so the correct answer is something else. A2 seems to the nearerst to the truth.

After A returns 0-2 Embassies to the pile, the other players are supposed to gain one each. Since players can't gain cards from the same pile at the same time, this is broken up in player order (just a for Q1). So B gains an Embassy. Normally the game would proceed to C gaining an Embassy, but something triggered. So the execution of Ambassador's effect is suspeneded until everything that triggered from the gaining is handled. And that includes things that trigger from handling those triggers,a.s.o.

Since B gained an Embassy, all other players in turn order gain a Silver, so A, then C then D gain a Silver. Nothing more triggered on the Embassy gain by B and nothing triggered on the Silver gains, so the interruption of Ambassador's effect is over and it continues with C gaining an Embassy, triggerring again a round of Silver gain.

So the full order of effects on that playing of Ambassador showing an Embassy is

A4: A reveals an Embassy, A returns 0-2 Embassies to the pile, B gains an Embassy, A gains a Silver, C gains a Silver, D gains a Silver, C gains an Embassy, A gains a Silver, B gains a Silver, D gains a Silver, D gains an Embassy, A gains a Silver, B gains a Silver, C gains a Silver.

This oderering is completely forced, no choice involved. It also assumes that there are enough Embassies and Silver available to fulfill the demand.

Now let's add some fun and assume Changeling is also in the game. Then for each Embassy/Silver gain, there is an additional optional trigger: Exchanging it for a Changeling. The interaction with the Silver gains is easy: Changeling is the only thing triggering of the Silver gain, so it is has to be handled immediately after the gain.

So in the above order of events the first Silver is gained by A (after B got the first Embassy). Now, before that game proceeds to give C the next Silver, all triggers on the Silver gain by A habe to be resolved, so A has to decide if they want to exchange the just gained Silver for a Changeling. Only once that is decided and executed (if so chosen), does the game proceed to C gaining a Silver, and then C has the same decision to make, a.s.o.

How Changeling interacts with the Embassy gains is more complicated. Once for example player B has gained an Embassy, now 2 things have triggered:
1) the mandatory Silver gain for the other players by Embassy itself, and
2) the optional exchange for a Changeling.

Both triggers 'belong' to player B, so they get to decide which order they are executed in. They can choose to do 2) before 1) and thus exchange the Embassy for a Changeling before player A (and later C and D) gain their Silvers. That may be prefferable if there are less than 4 Changelings left and B fears that A,C and D might all exchange their Silvers for Changeling.
But it's also possible to do 1) first and 2) later, which has the benefit that B can make a choice based on what A,C and D did.

To sum this up, each triggerable effect has its own queue, where effects happen by affected player in turn order, and each affected player decides upon the order of their effects. If new things trigger, they interrupt the execution of previous effects until they are dealt with, then the previous effects continue.

An example of the last sentence, the possible exchange of the Silver gained for a Changeling interrupted the Silver gains from the Embassy trigger, which in turn had interrupted the Ambassador giving out Embassies.

-----

Let's move on to Eavesdropper.

It's clear (I think) that 'waiting' on a gain and not calling your Eavesdropper isn't helping here.

So A buys, then gains a Grand Market (GM0), 5 Grand Markets left (I'll call them GM1-GM5 from top to bottom).
  Eavesdroppers for B and C trigger; B is fírst in turn order, so they call an Eavesdropper and gain GM1
    For the GM1 gain, Eavesdroppers from A and C trigger, and they interrupt the triggered effects from the GM0 gaining.
    A is first in turn order and calls an Eavesdropper to gain GM2
      For the GM2 gain, the Eavesdroppers from B and C trigger and they interrupt the triggered effects from the GM1 gaining.
      B is first in turn order, they call their second Eavesdropper and gain GM3
        For the GM3 gain, Eavesdroppers from A and C trigger, and they interrupt the triggered effects from the GM2 gaining.
        A is first in turn order and calls their second Eavesdropper to gain GM4
          For the GM4 gain, Eavesdroppers from B and C trigger, and they interrupt the triggered effects from the GM3 gaining.
          B is first in turn order and calls their third Eavesdropper to gain GM5
     Now the various layers continue, allowing players to call their Eavesdroppers as indicated above, but that is pointless, as there are no more Grand Markets to gain.

Once the dust settles, A has gained 2 and B has gained 3 of the contested 5 Grand Markets. C, being last in turn order, is unhappy now.

----

Your additional questions:

1) Note that the first printed version of Moat also doesn't say that it happens first: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Moat
Just like for Secret Chamber, it was assumed/understood that those attack-centered reaction effects naturally had to be done first, because especially for Moat it doesn't make any sense otherwise. When the game evolved and had Reactions that were not related to attacks any more, it became clear that the rules didn't really support the way Moat etc. were supposed to work. As a result, the 2E printings of Moat, Beggar and probably others were changed to include "first" in their wordings. Since Secret Chamber isn't in 2E Intrigue, it didn't get the wording update. If you play with it, I'd suggest you react with it as it was always intendend: It happens before the attack effect.

2) That I'm slightly unsure about, but I think the central rule of doing things in turn order still applies. So once you have 'passed' on doing something "first" when A played an attack, your chance is over to do anything for that attack. As Donald X.'s reply below makes clear, player B can use Diplomat again.
       

215
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Epic Fails Thread
« on: October 04, 2019, 02:53:46 pm »
There was one time where I accidentally called a Duplicate to gain an extra Curse when I bought a Gold because I didn't realize that my opponent had played a Swamp Hag on their turn. I really wish Shuffle iT made it way more obvious that Duration attacks like Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag were played, because I never notice them. Adding a little ant-sized icon to their VP/Villager/Coffers/Username bar really doesn't cut it.

I'm still mad that my opponent wouldn't let me take back what was obviously a mistake.

Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag put the icon into the bar of the affected players, not the player who played them. So when it's your turn and you are affected, it sits there in the central status bar.

Also with the new update, it shows you an (admittedly small) picture of the card you are gaining.

But I also often misclick, because I want to do Action X and I forget that before something else happens (like trashing for Cathedral the card you actually want to play).

216
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Survivors won't discard
« on: September 06, 2019, 06:44:12 pm »
Yes, sorry, this has been brought up elsewhere already for Survivors and Navigator. I assume it will be fixed in the next days.

217
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Captain / Encampment bug
« on: September 06, 2019, 12:23:38 pm »
Do you actually know if anything was returned? It seems unlikely that an Encampment you bought was actually returned; those were already in your discard pile. Like Ingix said; it seems more likely that it "returned" the one that was already there; which means it didn't actually do anything.

I think you misunderstood me, all things indicate that an Encampment that was in the discard got returned to the supply pile. On turn 9, when the buy phase starts, there are 8 cards in the Encampment/Plunder pile. After buying 3, there should be 5 cards left, showing the first Plunder. But on replay, after that turn, there are 6 cards in that pile, the top being an Encampment.

As I said above, the one Encampment that was played via Captain got 'earmarked' by the game to be returned to the supply at the start of cleanup, and that was what (incorrectly) happened.

218
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Captain / Encampment bug
« on: September 05, 2019, 12:55:13 pm »
Yep, it's a bug.

The reason is probably slightly different, I'm 99% sure it returned the exact Encampent that you played with Captain (the one on top of the Encampment pile at that time). Normally that's exactly the right thing to do, but it was missed that the Encampment's return effect should expect the Encampment in the set aside zone.

219
Rules Questions / Re: Some questions re Sceptre
« on: August 19, 2019, 03:55:19 am »
First the text of Scepter, for easy reference:
When you play this, choose one: +$2; or replay an Action card you played this turn that's still in play.

1) No, you can't play the Royal Carriage. The Royal Carriage is not "still in play", it is again in play, after it left play for a time.

2) Yes, that works.

3) Yes, Hireling now has executed its effect and will stay in play for the remainder of the game. Scepter played a Duration card a second time, so it stays out as least as long as Hireling, which is for the remainder of the game.

220
Rules Questions / Re: Silos multiple?
« on: August 08, 2019, 12:04:54 pm »
To add to GendoIkari's answer, if you want more Hireling effects, you can buy and play more Hirelings. However, you cannot buy (place a cube on) a Project more than once:

Quote
You cannot place two cubes on the same Project.

So this strategy (buy more of them) doesn't work for Silos.

221
Rules Questions / Re: What is the starting rank on Dominion.games?
« on: July 18, 2019, 01:47:33 pm »
Thanks Wizard_Amul! That would correspond to an initial φ of 0.75. I know some change was implemented later to what was written in the posting I linked to.

222
Rules Questions / Re: What is the starting rank on Dominion.games?
« on: July 17, 2019, 03:29:31 pm »
You may want to take a look at http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1679.0

The general information is correct, I'm not sure if you still actually start with level 20. The third post in that thread goes into the mathematical details.

Generally, the system considers the "base rating" it assumes you have (μ), and the "uncertainty" it has about that "base rating" (φ). Your base rating starts at 0 (averge) and the uncertainty at 2. The uncertainty will rapidly go down when you play more games. Basically it models that the rating system can be alot more sure about your rating when you play 10 games a day than when you play 1 game every 10 days. I rarely play and my uncertainty is 0.3561. If I don't play, the uncertainty will slowly go up, if I play, it will go down.

Now the "intermediate rating" is calculated as (μ - 2φ). That means it tries to be conservative, it is always lower than your base rating (your uncertainty is always greater than 0). The more unsure the system is about your rating, the lower the intermediate rating will be. My base rating is 0.5165, so even though that is half a point above average, my intermediate rating is 0.5165 - 2*0.3561 = -0.1957, which is below 0.

Now, nobody wants their rating to be negative, and people don't want to deal with 4 figures after the decimal point, so the level that you get shown in the game is

50 + 7.5 * "intermediate rating".

For me that gives 48.53, which the game shows as 49.

You can find those values I mentioned here also in the game in the ratings tab.

223
Wait, how does Lantern cause shapeshifting? Doesn't it do the same kind of thing as Envy and Enchantress (i.e., 'when you play the card do this instead of what the card says')? Is that shapeshifting?

I think Donald is talking about the ruling how an inherited Border Guard works if the player has the Lantern. Initially the idea was that since the card is still named Estate, Lantern would not apply. Then, after some argument (in some thread here I can't find now), it was changed based on the argument that the Lantern would change (shapeshift) the Border Guard under the Estate token, which would then, in turn, affect the ability that the Estates get.

224
Play TR + BoM(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Duration, then TR plays the Duration directly. But the rule for TR+Duration is that if TR causes the Duration to be played one more time this turn, TR stays in play. (This is the reason Royal Carriage stays in play when re-playing a Duration.)

Play TR + BoM(Feast) / Bom(Duration) - BoM plays itself as Feast, then TR plays BoM from trash, then BoM plays itself as Duration. TR never played a Duration, so doesn't stay in play. This also applies to King's Court, since KC will always play BoM, not a Duration.

As far as I remember, all this works correctly in Dominion Online - of course also including the Conspirator interaction.

The first interaction has the Throne Room stay out in Dominion Online, which is the reason I asked the question. It's not like that is a totally unreasonable; a card, that is now a Duration, was played twice by the Throne Room. But literally, as you said, it played a non-Duration card named Band of Misfits the first time.

The second example is more clear cut, because another simple reason that Throne Room/King's Court does not stay out is that the card it played is not in play, so can't be discarded anyway.

I tried the following setup in Dominion Online: Player A plays Ghost which sets aside an Amulet. Player B plays Enchantress. Player A gets one enchanted Amulet (+1 Card/+1 Action effect) and then a normal one. By the letter of the rule the Ghost should stay out another turn, which it does in Dominion Online, even though there is nothing to 'remember' about an additional effect next turn.

225
Rules Questions / Throne Room playing Band of Misfits becoming Amulet
« on: July 04, 2019, 05:25:10 pm »
If Throne Room plays Band of Misfits becoming an Amulet (or any other eligabe Duration-Action), will the Throne Room stay out for the next turn?

I assume the answer for Overlord instead of Band of Misfits would be the same.

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