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Messages - CaptainNevada

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Very close to Cutpurse.

I'm really hoping to see some more attack cards in DA for Squire to aspire to.

I'm guessing there will be a "beggar" attack card:

Each other player with 4 or more cards discards a treasure from their hand (or reveals a hand with no treasure).  If any treasures were discarded in this way, +$2.

Something of that nature.

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dark Ages Limericks
« on: August 14, 2012, 12:50:36 am »
The Squire can do this and that
But when grown he'll gain an attack
Torturer, Witch or Spy?
Or could he be the guy...
Who aspires to be a Bureaucrat 

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 13, 2012, 02:05:39 am »
The easiest way would be for it to be a mass trasher (say, up to three cards).  They are often useful to get rid of your starting deck.  The other way would be for it to turn into an attack.  Like Vandals or Mobs that force opponents to discard but also take a small toll on some of your own property.

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 
That actually fits in with a thought I'd already had - in the realm of "unspoken rules", there's the one of "if you trash a card for benefit, the benefit should be worth more than having the card" or, in Remake terms, if you trash something you get something better. Besides Develop, how could you leverage a card that had "Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly/up to a value $1 less than that of the trashed card" into something actually useful?

(Thoughts: it gives you something as well, it gains the card into hand and gives +1 Action, you get coins equal to the difference but then how is that different from Salvager ...)

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: What card design rules are left?
« on: August 12, 2012, 03:12:07 pm »
City does somewhat check how many cards are left in a supply pile. :>

It only checks to see if a pile is empty, and that is done after every single turn automatically.  But I'll rephrase it to say that no card checks how many cards are left in a non-empty supply pile.

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: What card design rules are left?
« on: August 12, 2012, 05:27:55 am »
I don't think any card checks to see how many cards are left in a supply pile.  This is probably a good thing as it is an unnatural break in the flow of the game (unlike attacks, where people either can use a reaction card or be affected by the attack).  The only exception would be a Victory Card, as the end of the game is another natural break in the action.

It's still possible to do, and could be done quite thematically to represent a very scarce resource.

Gemstones ($3 - Treasure)
Worth $2 for every 3 Gemstones in the Supply

Wonder of the World ($5 - Victory)
Worth 1 VP for Every Wonder of the World in the Supply.

Mercenaries ($5 - Action - Attack)

+1$ for Every 2 Mercenaries Left in the Supply
Each Opponent With 4 or More Cards Discards to 3 Cards

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 12, 2012, 04:10:28 am »
Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

That could work. Demolish might also fit with the theme. Restore?

It's also interesting to think up thematic effects... maybe a reverse remodel, return a card from your hand to the supply; if you do, gain a card costing up to 2 more from the trash.

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 12, 2012, 01:45:01 am »
Between Donald X's comments about "upgrading" being changing cards for other cards, the general poverty theme, and the hit certain Trash-for-Benefit cards took with $1 cost cards, perhaps a trasher that trades cards you have for cards of a lower value.  You might even be able to buff it a bit by having it go into your hand like Trading Post.


Pawnbroker ($4 / Action)
Trash a card from your hand.  Gain a Card Costing Exactly $1 Less, Putting It Into Your Hand

The idea being you're getting rid of stuff for quick cash.

And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)
A curse-giver (though with the looters, this set might not have one)
A more conventional trasher (a la chapel, steward, remake, etc.)
A card with Village in the name
The 5th ruins
The 2nd upgrade card (a la hermit/madman).
The other 2 looters
The other 2 ways to get spoils
More cards that interact with things in the trash somehow, rather than just being trashed
Some reason why the shelters type is important, other than colour....

And which we now don't expect to see
....yeah, pretty much anything seems in play to me now.

Trading Post is another card that provides silver and trashes two cards at once.  I can imagine the exchange...

I'll trade you this Squire and a Hermit for quick Silver in Hand, a Madman, and a Bureaucrat. 

Are you sure you want a Bureaucrat?  We have a nice selection of Pirate Ships?

Positive.  I need him to administrate my Feodum. 

Each set adds a layer of complexity.  Shelters make Remake a worse opening card.  However, it's still a great card with many of the Dark Ages cards (trashing two Rats is going to net you two $5 cards as well as drawing two cards; trashing two Squires is going to give you two attack cards plus two $3 cards).  The Shelters may check the power of the the card, as I could see somebody going crazy with a board with Remake, Village, and Poor House available. 

Still, Remake may be the right opening move depending on the board (try a kingdom set that has Hamlet, Poor House, and Remake on it).

Yeah, the Remake-FV-PH strategy just evaporated. Now it's Remake-Hamlet/NV-PH at best. :/

It's not like the existence of these cards deals a deathblow to these cards. Just like any card, their efficacy is improved or lessened based on the kingdom.

Sea Hag is a pretty powerful card, but you probably wouldn't buy it if Lookout was available. Remake is still pretty good…you just  might be less likely to buy it if Shelters are out there.

Actually, I was thinking that while Dark Ages is a counterpoint to both Prosperity (Dark Ages seems to have a poverty theme) and Hinterlands (Trashing verses Gaining) Guilds would be be a counterpoint to Cornucopia (reward you for multiple copies of a card instead of a variety of cards).  Guilds would set standards and prices of goods and services.  So the initial cost might be higher but the rewards of multiple cards (representing more control over a specific good or service) might get better. 

Treasure map needs two copies of it to pull off.  Conspirators chain well but the rewards after they kick in are consistent.  A second Fools Gold is much better than the first. 

Funny Hat Guild ($4 - Action)
+1 Action 
+1 Card for Each Copy of Funny Hat Guild in Play

FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.

A card like that would be cool. How would you upgrade them? It could count the trash and then level up at some point, but stopping to count how many cards are in the trash in annoying... Hmmm

I'm expecting ALL of Guilds to be a sequential upgrading chain of 13 or so cards.  You're only allowed to buy one of them, and then you switch them out all the way up to the top.

That would be a good expansion, right?

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Puzzle: The Four Mysterious Ruins
« on: August 10, 2012, 04:38:40 am »
My prediction is that they will all be ruined versions of base cards.

How about Ruined Moat?

Reaction:  When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal and trash this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack


Madman?  Squire?  What more do you need?  Something explicitly called a Village?

Shunned Village  (Action) $3
+2 Actions
Gain a Card from the Trash Costing $3 or less.

The idea being they live off the refuse of others.

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

The trick is sustaining a Pillage attack as the card trashes upon use and unless you pump up your opponents hands (Governor, Council Room, Torturer if they take the curse) it only hits their hands once. 

You're stopping the Rat population from overwhelming your deck, though I suppose Watchtower trashes what you don't want and Trader is a trash for benefit of a sorts (not only the reaction but the regular action makes it a trash for benefit).  Hinterlands and Dark Ages are sort of a ying-yang that was (particularly Feodum thrives on silver which many Hinterlands cards make it easier to get; Trader, Border Village, Embassy, Haggler, Noble Brigand, Jack of All Trades).  There is probably a good combo with Rat / Trader / Feodum allowing you to breed Rats to change into silver to buy Feodums which get more powerful with the more silver you have.

Rats also feeds on enemy cursing attacks (making them less powerful though possibly giving you a Rat problem).

I would actually be interested in the secret history of Rat.  $4 seems to be the right price point as it would be less useful at $3 and more powerful at $5 (particularly with trash for benefit on the board). 

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).

Of course, it might be simpler just to use Trader/Watchtower on those coppers, so I'm not sure Rats is really adding anything here.

I think all the comments so far have assumed - as we usually do - a two-player game. But with three or four players the rat pile could empty quite quickly, and once the rat pile is empty Rats becomes merely a non-terminal trasher. The interesting part will be the strategy about who buys a Rats first, because if only one player does then he likely won't be able to play Rats (without some other trashing card available) without the rats consuming his whole deck.

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

It may depend on who got the short end of the Masquerades.  If your opponent did, then sending him a Rat might help him clear the junk you sent to him.  Of course, if you are preying on a weak player passing him a Rat to "help" with clearing out the junk could give him an entirely different problem by which time you've won the game.

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.
People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

I know they can choose not to play them. That's why I brought up throne room and golem. Anyway I wasn't suggesting that you would buy rats (actually buy one, gain the rest) just to throw them at your opponent. I was saying that, depending on the situation, pawning them off on another player could be a good way to get rid of them once they've outlived their usefulness.

That's if you let your deck clog up with Rats.  If you draw a hand with 5 rats, you may as well resign.

That is part of the trick with Rats.  It may be very very easy to cross the tipping point where Rats benefit your deck to where they drag it down.  That's why Rats is almost certainly going to be better with another trasher, and shine with a good trash for benefit card. 

Rats is certainly at home in Dark Ages where the theme is trashing.  It trashes well and provides a benefit for trashing itself.  Plus it works best with other trashing cards, particularly trash for benefit. 

Somewhere in Dominion there has to be a variant on the old proposition about cat skins being worth money, so they'll breed cats.  And feed them rats, which breed rats.  To feed the cats they'll feed them the rats, and the rats will eat the cats (minus the skins) so they'll get the cat skins for nothing.

Perhaps Develop is that scheme.  You get Rats and the Rats multiply.  So you Develop the rats into a Duchy (profit!) and a cost costing $3.  What do you feed the Rats?  Why the card costing $3 you got for free when you killed the Rat and went along with your profit (Duchy). 

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).

Rats almost certainly are far more attractive on a trash for benefit board.  I wonder if it would be possible to Duchy / Duke rush with Rats and Remake.

With Rats, you have to wonder if the cure is worse than the disease, particularly with junk-infested decks.  It can probably end up eating the junk from a plaque of Montebanks in multiplayer games - but without a way to control the Rats... you get the idea.  I have no doubt it can be a really fast trasher of a deck of junk, but I think it is only going to be useful when it is in play with another trasher (to control the Rats). 

Since Dark Ages has some love for silver Develop is probably a useful card to turn Rats into silver and a good $5 card (opening Rats / Develop may be a pretty fast start).  Remake is already a good fast trasher at the same price point, and with Poor House at $1 it isn't the deck thinner it can be if that is on the table.  The extra helping of Rats in the supply almost seems towards balancing out a fast three pile ending (with only 10 Rats the Curses become a viable buy pile with the Rats eating the curses while the Rats breed). 

I shudder to think of the combos with Pillage.  All the tricks that go with Governor (or Council Room) and a handsize reduction attack can be expanded (with a bit of help) to get rid of the best card of an opponent before they lose most of the rest of their hands.  Plus the Pillager gets the Spoils. 

Mining Village got better.  Maybe a lot better if you have Gravedigger in hand, as in many cases there is little downside to trashing the MV for the coin and Gravedigging it back.  I can only wonder what kind of village this set has that would work even better.  We'll know soon.

Mostly cards. For example, steward gets a lot better, chapel gets a lot better (every trasher seemingly gets a lot better), saboteur has a bunch more interesting interactions, scout is now the best card in the game....

But also other stuff - the simulators are going to have  lot of trouble, I think. Play rules are really complicated on a lot of stuff now. When do I trash stuff for the for-trash benefits? When do I cash my hermit in for a madman? When do I not play something? Which squire option do I take? When do I play poor house? What the heck am I doing with my graverobber? On and on, it seems. Which, hey, is sort of cool, because it means that the set is shaping up to be a lot more tactical than the ones that came before.

So, is the Cultist play another Cultist a one-time-only chance or can you go back to it if you draw another Cultist later on in your turn?  Mining Village is phrased so you must trash it immediately to gain the benefit of the $ (and yes, I except there might be some neat Mining Village / Graverobber tricks as Mining Village gives the draw and actions no matter what; I predict we will see a bit of cycling them in and out of the Trash on some boards). 

Cultist doesn't seem to have a time restriction on it though.  Possibilities?

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« on: August 07, 2012, 01:33:10 am »
No amount of speculation about the cards is a substitute for actual play.  Hidden power comes out (Menagerie, Harvest, Hunting Party) and hidden weakness comes out (Jester, Saboteur). 

Played three games tonight with the new cards. All 2p.

My conclusions:

1- if poor house is in play in a province game, look very carefully. To make it work you need to discard and get extra actions and get draw to reliably have two in hand. If you can do it you can rush provinces pretty fast. But it dies too. Just like fg, after a few provinces getting two in hand becomes pretty difficult.

2- sage is awesome. It's power is in NOT getting silvers or other 3/4$ cards. And then using it to spam $5 cards. We played a game with festivals. At 50/50 festivals/safes you were effectively getting a $5 cards for $3. Very powerful on a 5/2 opening where you can ignore silvers altogether.
Sage starts to breakdown when you green - when it becomes a great trashing target (which makes Sense in this expansion...)

3- grave robbers was a trap card when we played. Even with a lot of Trashers it did not do very well. There are obviously going to be times when it works, but I think it will take a while to find them. Or maybe it just works well with a lot of da cards?

Fun games though. Amazing how sub-optimally one plays when there are flashy new cards in front of you...


Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« on: August 07, 2012, 12:48:30 am »
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

Without seeing the whole set I think we're limited to seeing combos with other sets.  I won't be surprised when new cards have the kind of set synergy Cornucopia had.

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« on: August 06, 2012, 07:46:11 pm »

Theoretically, yes, Highway and Bridge will be nice with Graverobber so you can gain huge cards from the trash.  On the other hand, it is quite rare for Provinces (or better) to be in the trash in the first place, so it will be very rare indeed to gain anything of real substance from the trash.  The real killer app of Graverobber is trash a $5 action >gain a Province, or trash a $3 action > gain a gold.  I would bet that the trash-for-benefit option is the choice on 90% of all Graverobber plays.  Most of the time there won't even be a $3-$6 card in the trash to gain, and even if there is it will still often be preferable to take the trash-for-benefit anyways.

Outside of the stray Swindler and Saboteur , the only time I see high value cards in the trash is very close to the endgame where it is worthwhile to trash big stuff for big gains (Salvager, Apprentice).  A zero-sum gain of victory points is a good trade by the player in the lead since the trash was previously off the table.  Graverobber puts them back into the supply, and Bridge / Highway tricks are something to consider in both using the strategy and responding to it.

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