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Messages - ShuffleLuck

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I would like to second the sentiment that there should be some kind of codified standard for online tournaments, which tournament organizers can simply link to and say "we will use this", or "we will use this, with the following changes." The DS.com website seems like a natural place to host such a standard. Maybe we just call it the "DS.com online tournament ruleset.", and then other people will naturally link to it and use it.

My personal preference regarding point/card counters in tournaments on ISO is that the official ISO point tracker be required, pen and paper be allowed, and all other memory aids (including PCE) be disallowed. My reasoning is that I want a level playing field, balancing the official rules of dominion with the limits of what is enforceable. I also don't especially enjoy keeping all the cards in memory, so I find that having some kind of automated point counter is more fun and relaxing.

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Dominion Articles / Re: How's about some Multiplayer
« on: June 12, 2012, 07:01:16 pm »
The "persuading" part is super out of place and is definitely cheating. Not the first time Geronimoo considers cheating behavior normal though, which is disappointing for sure (referring to the consulting of simulators in the beginning of games discussion a few months back).
....
Edit: I guess this kind of behavior exists in other board games so I maybe shouldn't categorically call it cheating. It absolutely has no place in Dominion in my mind, though, especially since I only approach it as a competitive game, not a casual one. In any competitive environment, it's definitely cheating.

Furthermore, that kind of behavior exists in Dominion itself in different playgroups. The line between cheating and fair play is socially constructed to some extent (there are always gray areas), so implicitly questioning Geronimoo's morals is very poor form, in my opinion. In both the examples you cite (multiplayer persuation and consulting simulators), Geronimoo has been fairly upfront and straightforward, so we should give him the benefit of the doubt. Different groups have different norms.

It's perfectly fine to argue that these behaviors should be prohibited in our online community (or in dominion tournaments in general, or whatever), but please don't go accusing someone of being a cheater when they are making a good faith effort and believe they are following the rules.

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Goko Dominion Online / Re: Unofficial Interested in beta list
« on: June 12, 2012, 12:52:11 pm »
I'm interested in beta testing!

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Help! / Re: Help me!
« on: June 01, 2012, 07:17:41 pm »
Here is lower level player on iso... How can I get better? Should I play people with a lower.level than myself? Any advice on setting up an engine? If VP tracker is not available, should I track VPs manually? I have just been convinced to play on iso.  :)

You should practice tracking VP in your head. Usually this is pretty easy -- you just have to keep track of the province and duchy buys. Note that VP chips are always known, and can be found by clicking on the info button on iso (it's also really useful for black market, to see what's in the deck).

I think it's also good to try playing with the point tracker a few times, so you can see what is available to other people when they are using it. It also demonstrates how useful it is to keep track of everything. Using a point tracker is against the rules of dominion, though, so I wouldn't make a habit of it (although its use is quite common and accepted on ISO, for a variety of reasons).

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Help! / Re: goons
« on: June 01, 2012, 07:09:54 pm »
I agree with everything DStu said, and just want to add a couple things:
- another advantage of pairing up salvager and spice merc is that you can eventually use the salvager to trash the spice merc once it isn't useful anymore. (I realize you may be thinking of keeping it around so you can buy coppers and then trash them later, but with watchtower on the board, that's not necessary.)
- if there's an engine to be built, I would almost never buy copper (unless you can trash it right away with watchtower). You should only buy it when you hit your megaturn (with 4 goons out or whatever) or if it looks like the game will be ending soon and you need the VP asap. Stacking goons is sooooo good. Much better than a few early VP plus coppers clogging your deck.

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Game Reports / Re: Fun desperate comeback
« on: June 01, 2012, 06:59:04 pm »
YoungWitch/Tunnel is an awesome combo. According to councilroom, it's the 32nd best opening in the game. Maybe not so great against Masq, though... Masq is so great against curses.

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Introductions / Re: Hello, my name is ShuffleLuck
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:54:26 pm »
I think a modified version of veto mode should be used in tournaments.  The first player wouldn't get to veto any cards.  The second player and third player could veto one.  The last player could veto two.  I think this would give the last player a better chance in a multiplayer game.  A lot of tournaments that have been run don't address this problem.

That's an interesting and novel idea -- I like it!

On the one hand, given identical opponents, I don't think it would make much difference -- the big first player advantage cards (such as attack cards) would become less common, while the 2nd player advantage cards (such as smuggler) would become more common, but first player would still have a distinct advantage. On the other hand, real world people have different strengths (such as engines vs big money + X), so you could use your vetoes to play to your strengths. I'm curious how large of an effect this would end up having on results.

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Introductions / Re: Hello, my name is ShuffleLuck
« on: May 03, 2012, 12:53:13 pm »
I actually like the idea of 1P starting with -1 VP a lot.  I'd be curious to see how that affects the winning percentage.
I think there was someone who looked at all the 2p games where there was a tie and awarded those games to the second player.  I believe that evened out the win percentages a bit more.  It is similar to giving 1P a -1 VP penalty, although I think you'd also have to add the games where the first player ended a game with a one point lead.

Another idea: instead of -1 VP, use -.5 VP (or -1.5 VP). This provides the additional benefit of avoiding ties. (Credit to the Komi idea developed for Go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29#Komi )

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Introductions / Re: Hello, my name is ShuffleLuck
« on: May 03, 2012, 12:51:02 pm »
Regarding beginner play: This is a situation where subtracting kingdom cards might be better than adding. 10 cards may be too many for a beginner. I just am inclined to assume that DXV chose 10 because it is a relatively good number of kingdom cards, but ALSO because it is such a round number. Obviously these are all custom games, but maybe if both players agree ti x kingdom cards before they see the cards, this could increase enjoyment all around.

I agree completely that more than 10 cards would be way too many for beginners. My question, rather, was about how to improve competitive tournaments. In chess, for example, super beginners don't play with a clock, but tournaments do. Along the same lines, I'm wondering how dominion might be modified to make high level play even better.

Quote
More Kingdom cards = greater odds of having broken combinations = less cards of the kingdom being used instead of more

It's probably a bad thing.

I agree this is potential problem, although there is still always the question of how to best support the good combos, or the question of which good combo is better. For example, you'd have to choose between remake and chapel more often, or between young witch and sea hag. There are also more counters, so you get more lighthouse, watchtower, etc. A possible compromise: add 2 extra "cheap" cards (cost 4 or below?) to each kingdom. This would increase the number of support options, without increasing the prevalence of Goons, King's Court, etc.


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Introductions / Hello, my name is ShuffleLuck
« on: May 02, 2012, 09:28:52 pm »
Hello, my name is ShuffleLuck, and I've been sober from Dominion for about 10 minutes.

I'm a researcher at a west coast university in the USA. I mostly just lurk on the forums, but I read quite a bit, so thanks to everyone for all your thoughts! Special thanks to all the simulator folks, for sharing their wisdom.

Obviously, Dominion is a super great game. Is it perfect, though? What changes would you make, for competitive tournaments?

I would increase the kingdom size, from 10 to 12 (or perhaps even 14?). Baring curated sets, I think this is needed to provide more possibilities and combinations for expert players.

The other change I would make for competitive play is to decrease the first player advantage by giving the P1 a negative point at the start of the match. In four player games, it could be -3,-2,-1, or something like that.

What would you do?

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Game Reports / Re: How I was a noob.... and won!
« on: May 02, 2012, 08:37:11 pm »
Here are my thoughts regarding game two: I think that your strategy was better. Hunting Party is a power card. It does not need trashing, so money lender is a waste. It loves having an attack card, which you can play pretty much every turn, so ghost ship is great. Furthermore, you were NOT particularly lucky; your silver missed the opening reshuffle, and none of your estates did (meanwhile, neither of ARTjoMS's opening buys missed the reshuffle).

Edit: I always love it when someone calls me a noob after they lose to me (happens most often in Starcraft). "You just lost to a noob, eh? Pretty embarrassing!"

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Game Reports / Re: Most Frustrating Loss Ever
« on: February 05, 2012, 05:21:12 pm »
Well, he also bought more lighthouses than you (six to your four), and more cursers (he had 2 hags and a montebank to your single montebank) than you, so it isn't a surprise he won the curse war so heavily. Still frustrating, I'm sure.

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Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion Industrialisation
« on: January 16, 2012, 02:56:49 pm »
School
Cost: 3
Action
+1 Action
Gain up to two action cards costing up to 3 placing them in your hand
You do realize that the first player to play one of these will empty the pile, right?
CAN empty the pile. But a deck full of these isn't going to have much buying power.
But on the other hand... on any board with 3 possible targets for this card, you have to start defensively buying green on like... well maybe like turn 1. Which is really bad for the game

Imagine this card with Great Hall on the board. Turns one and two, you buy School. After the reshuffle, you empty the School pile and half the great hall pile. Before you know it, the estate pile is gone as well, and that's gg. Maybe 6 or 7 turns on average to end the game?

This type of thing would also happen with pawn, or any cheap cantrip (such as oasis). Not quite as unstoppable as great hall (because without the VP from great hall, a few duchies could counter the estate rush), but still pretty insane.

Edit: Also,
Field Nurse
Cost: 4
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Trash any number of curses from your hand. Gain a card costing equal or less than the number of curses trashed
- - - - - - -
When a card is trashed from your deck, discard pile, hand or play area, reveal this card to put the trashed card in your hand instead

This card would be really strong in certain situations. Like, imagine apprentice, or bishop, or forge... so many possibilities.

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Dominion Articles / Re: Crossing The Lvl 30 Barrier
« on: January 12, 2012, 01:06:22 pm »
Davio - why did you use BVs to gain Witches on your last turn instead of all Duchies? Your point about planning ahead is valid, but I'm suspicious about when exactly you realized that the three-pile ending was there.  ;D
With the quarries in play, border village only cost $2, but duchies still cost $5, so you can't gain the duchies with the border villages.

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