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Messages - michaeljb

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Haggler and debt is bugged online
« on: July 22, 2020, 08:51:05 pm »
Frustrating because I wanted to use city quarter as money source to pay off debt.

Now that the cost rule is sorted, what did you mean by this?

2
Rules Questions / Re: What is an "Action Supply Pile"?
« on: May 11, 2020, 02:43:39 pm »
Page 6 of the Empires rules pdf at http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=1987:

Quote
Some cards refer to the cost or types of a pile as if it is just one card. In these cases go with what is on the Randomizer card, which usually matches the top card.

3
Rules Questions / Re: Considering Trader errata
« on: May 09, 2020, 03:05:50 pm »
Anyway Donald, have you considered a version that just trashes the gained card to gain a silver?
For Trader itself, no. Exchanging feels closer to the original card.

This is happening, incidentally; there's a new card image, the rulebook has been changed. It's who knows how many months away for anyone to have it, but from my perspective it's done.

new art too? or just new text?

Previous wording changes have kept the same art, presumably this would as too.

4
Hostelry + Alms is pretty hilarious

5
Rules Questions / Re: Cost of Animal Fair revisited
« on: April 21, 2020, 11:05:31 am »
If I were a game designer and had a fanbase that took umbrage with things like this, I think I would feel a little bit cursed every day.

If you're referring to my OP, I guess it's good that you're not a game designer. (I also don't understand how you could interpret it as "taking umbrage".)

If I were a game designer, I would be happy with fans that are devoted enough to create wikis and rules documents and care to make them accurate.

Another thing is that you probably haven't been around enough, or cared enough, to know that rules questions about Dominion have often been answered by Donald by analyzing what the cards says and/or the intention of the cards in a pretty deep and technical way. The baseline for interpreting interactions in Dominion is understanding detailed timing rules (or other rules, but it usually involves timing), as decided by the game designer himself.

I agree with this, but silvern may still have something of a point  :P

Until/unless in-between things are errata'd away; can we get a ruling about whether you lose your leftover actions and coins at the end of turn, or at the start of turn? In other words, if you play Storyteller during a Donate; does it count the coins you had leftover at the end of the turn?
I just, I just feel like I need to make you answer some questions too. Why, GendoIkari? Are you writing your own Dominion program?

No-one needs to know what happens if Storyteller is played during a Donate.

6
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Silly things to do during Donate
« on: March 21, 2020, 03:50:34 pm »
Buy a Messenger from the Black Market, don't pass out any other cards.

Snowy Village doesn't stop +Actions now, so you can really power up that Diadem for Storyteller/Black Market.

Every Fool's Gold makes $4.

I wonder what happens with The River's Gift? "+1 Card at the end of this turn. (Keep this until Clean-up.)" I guess "this turn" would be undefined, so you don't draw a card, but you would keep it until the next player's clean-up phase and then discard it?

I think most other cards that refer to "this turn" just don't work in obvious ways, assuming "this turn" is essentially undefined/null.

I guess Wayfarer always costs $6.

7
Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things.  Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.

Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.

How can you play it during Cleanup?

You can do it during your own Donate via Market Square and Sheepdog right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.

8
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Fisherman
« on: March 17, 2020, 04:57:53 pm »
Also makes 2/5 > 5/2 most of the time, which makes me more interested in the variant where you set the order of your initial deck, or where everyone's initial deck has the same order.

9
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 17, 2020, 01:51:59 pm »
Fun synergy I just spotted: having played Stonemason and chosen your first Action card to gain, your second choice can always be Wayfarer.

This works for both playing and overpaying for Stonemason, right?

Not if the card you trash is a Destrier and the first gained card costs $1 less than it!

Just to make sure I follow...

Play Stonemason
1) trash Destrier ($6)
2) gain Livery ($5); Destrier now costs $5 because you've gained one card, Wayfarer costs $5 because you last gained a Livery
3) gain something costing less than $5 (Destrier's current cost)

10
Aha, this thread was split without adding the image into OP:

Looking at the wording again in context, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it happens during the Buy phase. This make the 'Otherwise,' interpretation not clear because players will have that tendency to want to leave good cards on top of their deck rather than playing or cycling them as they're meant to....

Well, I've decided what *I* would do to fix the card, and keep it simple.

Remove the words "you may".

It's a gamble. You don't get to choose.

I agree, and it wouldn't be much of a difference in power level either... it's one thing to wish you could leave a good action on top rather than playing it now; but it's a pretty rare edge case that you wish you could just discard it rather than play it now.

Doesn't seem like it would be that rare.  A mandatory trasher like forager or junk dealer could hurt if you only have victory cards in your hand

And gambling sometimes hurts  :)

11
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie rule book is up!
« on: March 17, 2020, 12:28:56 pm »
There are still some Ways that are not revealed.
Mule
Worm
Monkey
Camel
Frog
Goat
?


Huh, interesting. All vanilla cards (even Pouch, the one card with purely vanilla effects released since Adventures) got a FAQ entry in the rulebook, but apparently not so for all of the Ways:

Quote from: Menagerie Rulebook
Some of the Ways are very simple. Here are notes for the others.


13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 11, 2020, 02:54:52 pm »
If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

Also a programmer, also how I interpreted it  ;D

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

I thought there had been a ruling about when a card is revealed, the default is that it returns to where it was revealed from, assuming the effect that revealed it didn't provide further instruction. I'm pretty sure it came up around Herald.

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Well I guess that settles it.

14
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 11, 2020, 01:14:42 pm »
If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 08:48:07 pm »
I read “unconditional” as “always draws 4.” Compared to Scout, which can draw 4 but probably won’t. There’s a potential drawback, but not a condition. Either way it still sounds like a strong combo, and I think the people that were discussing it were aware of the drawback.

I agree that it looks strong, and I was wrong in my interpretation of "unconditional". But I still think the person I quoted wasn't aware of the drawback at the time, after all they later posted this:

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?
Hopefully this can conclude this silly side-conversation about whether my Princess Bride meme post was justified :p

16
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 12:44:54 pm »
People asked for various things, but the big one was Ways, everyone wants to see more. Someone wanted the "vice-versa" card and someone wanted the most rule-bending things, so here's all three of those, and the most exotic thing in the set.

Do you mean "most exotic" in the zoological sense?

If not, I'd like to request the most zoologically exotic thing in the set for a bonus preview.  ;D

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 12:38:41 pm »
Storehouse acts almost like a throned Cellar when you use this Way, except with +1 Buy and no +Actions

Oof, Storeroom is another instance of the Storyteller quirk--1E uses "+Cards" and 2E uses "draw" so only the 1E version works with Chameleon 2E version works the way you describe.

18
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 12:32:34 pm »
What I'm curious about is how far the effects reach. If I apply Chameleon to Crown in my Buy phase, leading me to play a treasure card twice, does Chameleon automatically extend to any +$ that treasure card gives me?

No.

It was following Crown's instructions that directly caused me to play the treasure card.

True, but when you're playing a Treasure that Crown let you play twice, you're onto a different card's instructions. In this scenario, Chameleon's "that" refers only to Crown's instructions.

19
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 12:28:38 pm »
So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?

Indeed it can. I don't know if the 2E rulebook changed the wording of the FAQ and the wiki seems to be having trouble right now, so here's what the 1E rulebook says:

Quote from: Dark Ages 1E Rulebook
Poor House: First you get +. Then you reveal your hand, and lose per Treasure card in it. You can lose more than this way, but the amount of coins you have available to spend can never go below . Cards with two types, one of which is Treasure (such as Harem from Intrigue) are Treasure cards.

20
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 12:04:26 pm »
I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

Oh man, that's awful. Why differenciate between draw cards and +cards? Now some cards were functionally changed with 2nd editions, retroactively.

If I've learned anything from reading of Donald's posts over the years, I would guess his answer is something like this: at the time, "drawing cards" seemed like better wording than "+Cards" and Way of the Chameleon's mechanism was unforeseen. While making Menagerie, the mechanism seemed neat enough to be worth the drawback of retroactively changing some first edition cards. While the mechanism could be worded to treat "drawing cards" and "+Cards" as the same, that was probably too wordy.

21
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 11:48:13 am »
I don’t think anyone was misunderstanding this. Yes Poor House would still remove other money you had earned from Peddler, etc... but often you won’t have any yet. Poor House by itself is now +4 cards, the possible drawback is avoided by not using it in a Peddler-type deck.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I dunno, "not using it in a Peddler-type deck" sounds like a condition to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)

22
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 11:28:37 am »
So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"  No, wait, it specifically says "+Cards" and "+coins" on the Way, so I guess it wouldn't matter how many Treasure cards you had.  It would basically become "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -$1 per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below $0)" making that clause meaningless ... except that you'd still have to reveal your hand, but who cares?  Dang, that does make Poor House awesome!
(emphasis mine)

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)

I can't wait to play that Chameleon + Poor House combo!

And Poor House is basically Hunting Grounds without the on-trash effect



Poor House's "formula" is not +(max(, - number of Treasure cards in your hand)); it is +, then - per Treasure card in your hand, with your total count bottoming out at . For example, if you play a Market, then a Laboratory, then a Poor House and reveal 5 Coppers, you now have a grand total of and 1 Buy; the Poor House is actively harmful* in that case.

So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler

23
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 12:31:53 pm »
Wait, how does trashing a Wayfarer with Stonemason work?

1. Play Stonemason, trash a $6 Wayfarer
2. ... gain a $3 Silver

Now Wayfarer costs $3. Do I gain a card costing less than $6, the cost of the card when I trashed it (hey look I could gain a Wayfarer), or do I gain a card costing less than $3, the current cost of the card I trashed?

Good question. It's definitely not the cost right before you trashed it. We know from old Inheritance that the cost could change after it was trashed, and then we would look at that cost. But this is different, since the cost of the card actually changes between the two gain effects.

I would think it's like this: You're triggering two effects at once, both being "gain a card costing less than the trashed card." We resolve those sequentially. Each time we look at the cost of the trashed card. So that would mean the second card costs less than $3.

I thought I had heard of the idea of trashing something and its cost changing--I should have known to look at Inheritance  :P

24
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 12:06:11 pm »
Fun synergy I just spotted: having played Stonemason and chosen your first Action card to gain, your second choice can always be Wayfarer.

This works for both playing and overpaying for Stonemason, right?

Oh dang, that's true. Trash an Estate for a Copper and a Wayfarer. I think I'd take that deal.

Wait, how does trashing a Wayfarer with Stonemason work?

1. Play Stonemason, trash a $6 Wayfarer
2. ... gain a $3 Silver

Now Wayfarer costs $3. Do I gain a card costing less than $6, the cost of the card when I trashed it (hey look I could gain a Wayfarer), or do I gain a card costing less than $3, the current cost of the card I trashed?

25
It’s going to be challenging to not say “This is the way” when playing a Bounty Hunter.

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