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Rules Questions / Re: Yet another question regarding TR variants playing Durations
« on: December 01, 2022, 11:52:08 pm »
Oof, nevermind, I see the rule near the bottom now!
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Rules Questions / Yet another question regarding TR variants playing Durations
« on: December 01, 2022, 11:48:15 pm »
I think I understand everything mentioned in this.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duration
"When you use a Throne Room variant on a Duration, that Throne Room stays in play for as long as the Duration does."
But what I have yet to read anywhere (but easily could have missed) is this scenario: when that TR variant itself is removed from play for some reason. I assume in this case you just have to remember at start of next turn that the Duration may have multiple effects to resolve similar to when the Duration is removed from play before cleanup of the turn it was played.
Specific scenario: With Way of the Turtle in the game (or an of the ways that removes a card from play), play Throne Room which plays King's Court which on its first of two plays, plays a simple Duration (like Caravan) 3 times. Nothing unusual yet: King's Court will stay in play along with the Caravan until cleanup of the next turn and three Caravan effects will resolve at start of next turn.
But the second King's Court's play is Turtle'd which normally removes it from play. I assume that still happens here and the Caravan stays in play (along with all three of its effects) but is just sort of orphaned?
I would not miss these Duration/TR variant rules should they ever get removed!
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duration
"When you use a Throne Room variant on a Duration, that Throne Room stays in play for as long as the Duration does."
But what I have yet to read anywhere (but easily could have missed) is this scenario: when that TR variant itself is removed from play for some reason. I assume in this case you just have to remember at start of next turn that the Duration may have multiple effects to resolve similar to when the Duration is removed from play before cleanup of the turn it was played.
Specific scenario: With Way of the Turtle in the game (or an of the ways that removes a card from play), play Throne Room which plays King's Court which on its first of two plays, plays a simple Duration (like Caravan) 3 times. Nothing unusual yet: King's Court will stay in play along with the Caravan until cleanup of the next turn and three Caravan effects will resolve at start of next turn.
But the second King's Court's play is Turtle'd which normally removes it from play. I assume that still happens here and the Caravan stays in play (along with all three of its effects) but is just sort of orphaned?
I would not miss these Duration/TR variant rules should they ever get removed!
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Rules Questions / Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« on: January 28, 2022, 11:14:29 pm »
My understanding is a bit different. I don't think your explanation accounts for Sheepdog drawing another Sheepdog. Sheepdog #2 also triggers even though it wasn't in hand when the gain occurred.
The way it was explained to me recently is that the trigger itself is fixed but new abilities can appear and become executable. Any available abilities that fail to trigger are ignored and resolved (without execution of course) and since the exile mat ability is always available, it gets one shot at the beginning. Anything that later lands on the exile mat during resolution of that gain is too late for exile mat to become triggered.
The way it was explained to me recently is that the trigger itself is fixed but new abilities can appear and become executable. Any available abilities that fail to trigger are ignored and resolved (without execution of course) and since the exile mat ability is always available, it gets one shot at the beginning. Anything that later lands on the exile mat during resolution of that gain is too late for exile mat to become triggered.
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Rules Questions / Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« on: January 27, 2022, 05:51:33 pm »Couldn’t you just choose to resolve Gatekeeper before the Exile Mat,
I think you mean resolve E1's "gain this" effect first, before the exile mat effect. If you do that, the Gatekeeper never triggers at all.
But regardless I'm making my own app to play (and learn) and so this is more a rules question, than a strategy question.
I get your point about preferring that the order not matter, but I suspect it does.
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Rules Questions / Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« on: January 26, 2022, 07:04:49 pm »
Sorry folks got another one:
The Short:
Can the exile mat effect trigger more than once per gain?
The Long:
- an Experiment is already exiled
- opponent Gatekeeper in play
- gain Experiment, E1, which leads to gain of second Experiment, E2
Gain effects from the Exile Mat and E1 trigger. Gatekeeper does not trigger on E1 gain since an Experiment is exiled and is resolved for THIS gain. Choose Exile Mat effect first, and clear exile mat. Then E1 effect leads to E2 gain. Gatekeeper does trigger on E2 gain (since no Experiment is currently exiled). Gatekeeper exiles E2. Gain effects on E2 gain are done, so back to gain effects on E1. Can you now discard E2 since E2 is an "other copy" of E1? I think not but not sure why. Is it because the effect is on the mat (not the exiled cards) and that effect is already resolved? Is it a general rule that an effect from some effect producing thing can never execute more than once per event?
The Short:
Can the exile mat effect trigger more than once per gain?
The Long:
- an Experiment is already exiled
- opponent Gatekeeper in play
- gain Experiment, E1, which leads to gain of second Experiment, E2
Gain effects from the Exile Mat and E1 trigger. Gatekeeper does not trigger on E1 gain since an Experiment is exiled and is resolved for THIS gain. Choose Exile Mat effect first, and clear exile mat. Then E1 effect leads to E2 gain. Gatekeeper does trigger on E2 gain (since no Experiment is currently exiled). Gatekeeper exiles E2. Gain effects on E2 gain are done, so back to gain effects on E1. Can you now discard E2 since E2 is an "other copy" of E1? I think not but not sure why. Is it because the effect is on the mat (not the exiled cards) and that effect is already resolved? Is it a general rule that an effect from some effect producing thing can never execute more than once per event?
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Rules Questions / Way of the Turtle FAQ statement
« on: January 19, 2022, 11:40:39 pm »
The FAQ for Way of the Turtle:
"If you use Throne Room on a Duration card, play it once normally and then play it using Way of the Turtle, the Throne Room will leave play, and you will have to remember the Duration card's effects next turn."
That makes sense but also suggests to me that the order of the of the normal play and the Way play matters. But isn't the result the same regardless of order?: Duration card is set aside to be played next turn, the effect for the Duration's normal start-of-next-turn effect must be remembered and the Throne Room variant just cleans up in the current turn.
"If you use Throne Room on a Duration card, play it once normally and then play it using Way of the Turtle, the Throne Room will leave play, and you will have to remember the Duration card's effects next turn."
That makes sense but also suggests to me that the order of the of the normal play and the Way play matters. But isn't the result the same regardless of order?: Duration card is set aside to be played next turn, the effect for the Duration's normal start-of-next-turn effect must be remembered and the Throne Room variant just cleans up in the current turn.
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: January 09, 2022, 01:39:42 pm »The reason is that the trigger itself is not retroactive.
So regarding how to process effects, is this algorithm correct:
When a gain occurs, maintain a collection of effects to be resolved (2BR) and a collection of resolved effects (RX).
1. At the moment of the gain, find all gain effects in the mix that are not yet in either collection and add them to 2BR. (A Sheepdog near the top of the deck is NOT YET in the mix, but both an active Gatekeeper and the Exile mat always are).
2. For each effect in 2BR: if its trigger is not enabled, add it to RX; (it won't ever be re-evaluated for THIS gain). This is how we avoid both Gatekeeper and the Exile mat both from ever both enabling.
3. An effect in 2BR is chosen and executed. Add it to RX.
4. Now, we check for any NEW effects in the mix (like a drawn Sheepdog). Rinse and repeat from step 2.
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: January 02, 2022, 01:32:31 pm »Good catch. The reason is that the trigger itself is not retroactive. Let's say you gain a Silver when you already have a Silver in Exile. For any when-gain abilities what you gained was "a Silver that you had an Exiled copy of [and which had a certain cost and certain types etc.]". That defines the trigger window. Only abilities with matching triggers can trigger in this window, no matter if the Exiled Silver is discarded.
Another example: You have played Livery, and then gain a Fisherman costing $3. When you resolve when-gain abilities for this gain, the Fisherman costs $5. But what you gained was "a Fisherman costing $3 [and that had certain types etc.]", and only abilities that trigger off of that will trigger. So you do gain a Horse from Livery.
Hmmm, gonna have to chew on that idea a bit. The light bulb has not yet turned on for me
Also, in your Livery scenario, I think you mean $2 and "not gain a Horse"?
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: January 02, 2022, 02:27:02 am »
Thanks for the discussion everyone!
I have another scenario that's been on my mind that seems related to this: the gain effects of Gatekeeper and the Exile mat are opposite each other.
So far I lean toward preferring the rule "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" but doesn't that lead to a weird thing between these two effects?: A gain happens but only one can trigger. But as soon as you apply that effect, the other one triggers and essentially undoes the other's effect.
I see that Gatekeep has the FAQ answer: "Gaining a card that you do have a copy of on your Exile mat is unaffected, and lets you discard copies from your Exile mat if you want to as usual." But doesn't "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" contradict that FAQ answer?
I have another scenario that's been on my mind that seems related to this: the gain effects of Gatekeeper and the Exile mat are opposite each other.
So far I lean toward preferring the rule "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" but doesn't that lead to a weird thing between these two effects?: A gain happens but only one can trigger. But as soon as you apply that effect, the other one triggers and essentially undoes the other's effect.
I see that Gatekeep has the FAQ answer: "Gaining a card that you do have a copy of on your Exile mat is unaffected, and lets you discard copies from your Exile mat if you want to as usual." But doesn't "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" contradict that FAQ answer?
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 29, 2021, 02:09:43 pm »No, to be clear I was talking about trashing a card some other way before playing a Priest. So the priest would get played while you are still resolving other “when you trash” effects from trashing a card. The card you trash when you play Priest would be separate and unrelated to the scenario.
Oh, I see what you mean now:
1. Trash a card, T1
2. While resolving trash effects on T1, somehow a Priest is played. Resolve the Priest play (including any trash effects it generates and THEN setup its trashing bonus)
3. Continue resolving trash effects on T1.
At no time is Priest's +$2 awarded for the trashing of T1. (But any new trashing in step 3 until end of turn would be awarded +$2)
Is there anything out there to test these scenarios? Also wondering how to design the algorithm to allow the Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog case but not these other cases.
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 28, 2021, 06:35:18 pm »I would think it would be the same as Priest; if trashing a card lets you play a card due to some “when you trash a card” stuff and you play Priest; you don’t get the benefit from Priest I don’t think. The only difference is that Priest says “ For the rest of this turn” and Seal says “this turn”.
Hi GendoIkari,
I agree you don't get the Priest benefit in your scenario but I'm thinking that's because Priest has its own built in wall from reaping its own benefit: you FULLY resolve the "Trash a card" Priest itself does, THEN you set up the +$2 for any future "trash a card".
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 28, 2021, 04:30:56 pm »
This post seems to agree that the first played WotSeal can top deck the gained card:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg857344#msg857344
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg857344#msg857344
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Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 27, 2021, 04:09:20 pm »No. Because you gained those cards before playing Way of the Seal. Anything gained after that point can be topdecked (for example, if your opponent played a second Witch, or had Throned their Witch), but it wouldn't have a retroactive effect
Thanks for the reply mxdata. I would agree with you except that I'm not seeing how this would differ from a triggered Sheepdog drawing another Sheepdog. The drawn Sheepdog also has its gain effect triggered even though it wasn't even in hand when the gain occurred. I get that this was just a rule to avoid the problem that a player could lie about whether the 2nd Sheepdog was already in hand or not... and that problem does not exist here. But what condition would allow the triggering of the drawn Sheepdog's gain effect while disallowing the Sheepdog/WotSeal's gain effect?
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Rules Questions / Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 26, 2021, 07:45:29 pm »
If you gained a card on someone else's turn that triggers your Sheepdog (or Falconer) and you play Sheepdog with Way of the Seal, can you then use WotSeal's top deck ability on any future cards you gain during that same player's turn? How about top decking the gained card that allowed you to play the Way of the Seal?
Scenario:
P1's turn:
...
P1 plays Witch
P2 gains Curse, plays Sheepdog as Way of the Seal (+$1 is useless)
Can P2 top deck the Curse here since he/she has added a gain effect WHILE resolving his/her gain effects?
P1 plays Swindler
P2 trashes Gold and gains Gold.
P2 puts that Gold on deck via WotSeal gain effect
...
P1's turn ends
P2's WotSeal gain effect (from the Sheepdog play) is no longer triggerable
P2's turn: (starts with zero Treasure as always.)
Scenario:
P1's turn:
...
P1 plays Witch
P2 gains Curse, plays Sheepdog as Way of the Seal (+$1 is useless)
Can P2 top deck the Curse here since he/she has added a gain effect WHILE resolving his/her gain effects?
P1 plays Swindler
P2 trashes Gold and gains Gold.
P2 puts that Gold on deck via WotSeal gain effect
...
P1's turn ends
P2's WotSeal gain effect (from the Sheepdog play) is no longer triggerable
P2's turn: (starts with zero Treasure as always.)
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Dominion General Discussion / Why is Way of the Butterfly optional?
« on: November 27, 2021, 06:06:25 pm »
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way_of_the_Butterfly
Instructions say: "You may return this to its pile to gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it."
So it's already optional to use the Way. Seems odd to me so I suspect I am missing something.
Other than allowing you to get another card in play that you wouldn't want to play normally (for example for Conspirator), why would you ever opt into Way of the Butterfly and then not have it doing anything?
The effects of the action card still apply so are there cards where its effect is good but not its play steps?
Way of the Rat is also optional.
Instructions say: "You may return this to its pile to gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it."
So it's already optional to use the Way. Seems odd to me so I suspect I am missing something.
Other than allowing you to get another card in play that you wouldn't want to play normally (for example for Conspirator), why would you ever opt into Way of the Butterfly and then not have it doing anything?
The effects of the action card still apply so are there cards where its effect is good but not its play steps?
Way of the Rat is also optional.
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Rules Questions / Re: Gain Emporium in other player's turn with 5 Durations in play
« on: May 06, 2021, 03:04:04 pm »
I take it that the "Action cards in play" for Emporium would include any Falconer, Black Cat, Sheepdog and Village Green played out of turn during the same turn. Is that correct?
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Dominion FAQ / Pearl Diver played with 2 deck cards?
« on: March 11, 2021, 01:43:04 am »
Hi all,
Pearl Diver text: "Look at the bottom card of your deck. You may put it on top."
Pearl Diver FAQ rule: "First draw a card and get +1 Action; then look at the bottom card of your deck, shuffling first if needed."
Nit picky question: If there are 2 cards on your deck, playing PD draws one to hand leaving one card in the your deck and no choice to make... unless you were to shuffle the discards while looking at the single card.
I'm guessing technically you would not shuffle but I'm thinking reasonable people could disagree. What say you?
Pearl Diver text: "Look at the bottom card of your deck. You may put it on top."
Pearl Diver FAQ rule: "First draw a card and get +1 Action; then look at the bottom card of your deck, shuffling first if needed."
Nit picky question: If there are 2 cards on your deck, playing PD draws one to hand leaving one card in the your deck and no choice to make... unless you were to shuffle the discards while looking at the single card.
I'm guessing technically you would not shuffle but I'm thinking reasonable people could disagree. What say you?
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Rules Questions / Re: Villa's gain effect.
« on: November 06, 2020, 12:26:28 pm »Another question regarding Villa: if I gain it during another player's turn, I get the + Action. When I my turn begins, do I still have the extra action?No. Actions, Coins and Buys get reset at the end of a turn, even an opponent's turn.
(There *are* scenarios where the +Action can matter, but they require Way of the Mouse, Diadem, an Action that can be played on an opponent's turn, and some ways to play Treasures off the Mouse Action.)
Thanks Jack.
I don't doubt at all that you're correct, but where is the rule stated that "Actions, Coins and Buys get reset at the end of a turn, even an opponent's turn."? I've only seen rules on this in the Turn and Gameplay pages where it says at the start of turn, player is "given" or "receives" 1 Action.
FYI, I'm writing my own app to play and so getting things like this exactly correct is important.
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Rules Questions / Re: Villa's gain effect.
« on: November 06, 2020, 12:01:19 am »
Thanks GendoIkari.
Another question regarding Villa: if I gain it during another player's turn, I get the + Action. When I my turn begins, do I still have the extra action?
The rule states: "If you gain this during another player's turn, you will put the Villa into your hand and get +1 Action, but will have no way to use that Action, since it is not your turn."
That seems to imply that my action count resets to 1 at the start of my turn. The turn description states: "At the start of their turn, a player is given 1 Action and 1 Buy."
I find this all a bit ambiguous or at least not nearly as clear as it could be.
Another question regarding Villa: if I gain it during another player's turn, I get the + Action. When I my turn begins, do I still have the extra action?
The rule states: "If you gain this during another player's turn, you will put the Villa into your hand and get +1 Action, but will have no way to use that Action, since it is not your turn."
That seems to imply that my action count resets to 1 at the start of my turn. The turn description states: "At the start of their turn, a player is given 1 Action and 1 Buy."
I find this all a bit ambiguous or at least not nearly as clear as it could be.
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Rules Questions / Villa's gain effect.
« on: November 05, 2020, 10:39:12 am »
I don't find this Villa rule all that clear:"Villa visits the discard pile before being put in your hand. This means that when you gain it with a card like Artificer (which changes gain location), Villa will visit the top of your deck before going into your hand. If you react Villa by a card like Watchtower (which moves cards after gaining them), you will have a choice between the multiple destinations. Replace or Summon try to move but lose track of Villa after it goes into your hand, so you can’t topdeck it or set it aside."
Suppose you have Watchtower and Sheepdog in hand and gain a Villa. All 3 effects trigger at the same time and player gets to choose which to apply first, yes?
Does Villa lose track of itself if Watchtower trashes or topdecks the Villa. Or if Sheepdog causes a shuffle?
Suppose you have Watchtower and Sheepdog in hand and gain a Villa. All 3 effects trigger at the same time and player gets to choose which to apply first, yes?
Does Villa lose track of itself if Watchtower trashes or topdecks the Villa. Or if Sheepdog causes a shuffle?
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Rules Questions / Can you increase spendable treasure during buy phase with Priest in play?
« on: November 05, 2020, 10:30:45 am »
Example: While in Buy phase, react with Watchtower to trash a gained card. Does the Priest treasure increase apply to the current spendable treasure count?
I see nothing in the rules that would prevent this.
I see nothing in the rules that would prevent this.
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Dominion FAQ / Shouldn't Trader be listed with Possession in the Triggered effects page?
« on: July 07, 2020, 08:59:27 pm »
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_effects#When_you_would_gain
Trader's effect happens at "would gain" time, not "when you gain" time.
I suppose in most cases Trader can be included with other "when you gain" cards like Watchtower. If playing online, it would be a bit more efficient to allow the player to choose between his Trader and Watchtower.
I'm not familiar with all cards out there, but the new cards Black Cat and Falconer really can force a Trader effect to resolve BEFORE the Watchtower effect. When the gained card triggers another player's Black Cat or Falconer, it could be wrong to offer the gaining player both Trader and Watchtower together. (Wrong when the Black cat/Falconer player is closer to the current player than the gaining player)
Is my thinking correct?
Trader's effect happens at "would gain" time, not "when you gain" time.
I suppose in most cases Trader can be included with other "when you gain" cards like Watchtower. If playing online, it would be a bit more efficient to allow the player to choose between his Trader and Watchtower.
I'm not familiar with all cards out there, but the new cards Black Cat and Falconer really can force a Trader effect to resolve BEFORE the Watchtower effect. When the gained card triggers another player's Black Cat or Falconer, it could be wrong to offer the gaining player both Trader and Watchtower together. (Wrong when the Black cat/Falconer player is closer to the current player than the gaining player)
Is my thinking correct?
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Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Scheme/Herbalist
« on: February 12, 2020, 05:21:10 pm »
You get to choose the order. Any time 2 things trigger at the same time for the same player, that player can choose the order.
And welcome to the forums!
Thank you, sir. I've needed to add a simultaneously-effect-resolution mechanism to my app for a while now. I guess now is the time. This is the first I have come across that seems to matter. All others would just change the order in discards which, of course, doesn't matter (except for the relatively trivial matter of what top discard is exposed.)
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Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Scheme/Herbalist
« on: February 12, 2020, 11:20:27 am »
Hey Chris thanks for the reply. I agree; I can't think of a scenario where this would be a smart thing to do. But my question is a rules question not a strategy question. I'm building an app to play and so need it to follow dem rules.
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Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Scheme/Herbalist
« on: February 12, 2020, 02:57:44 am »
You've played: Scheme, Herbalist and a treasure.
If you "discard from play" the Herbalist, you trigger the clean up effects of both the Scheme and the Herbalist itself. What should the deck order be? Treasure on top or Herbalist on top? Or does the player choose since it seems that both effects happen simultaneously?
This could matter if you top deck 4 or more cards after those 2.
If you "discard from play" the Herbalist, you trigger the clean up effects of both the Scheme and the Herbalist itself. What should the deck order be? Treasure on top or Herbalist on top? Or does the player choose since it seems that both effects happen simultaneously?
This could matter if you top deck 4 or more cards after those 2.
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