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Messages - infangthief

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1
General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff Part IV
« on: October 19, 2018, 07:35:32 am »
It's not a garden path sentence, but I always liked "Flying planes can be scary". Is that in a Wikipedia article? I forget. I think we talked about it in a linguistics class I took.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Theme and mechanics themes
« on: October 19, 2018, 07:16:42 am »
So why are trashers religious in nature? My assumption is that it's about "cleansing"; at least the original idea would go back to going to a Chapel to cleanse yourself of Curses. But with so many non-evil things being trashed; one could also think that it's about religion being responsible for burning books, or hindering scientific progress.
I interpret it more as some combination of anti-materialism, sacrificial giving and renunciation of wealth. For the benefits of clarity and future reward.
A relevant line from the Bible is: "let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us".
Trash the stuff that slows you down. Get focused.

Also, while it is true that religious-themed cards always involve trashing, the converse is not true; by my count, only 12% of card-shaped trashers are religious-themed. There are many 'non-religious' ways to deal with junk.

3
Forum Games / Re: M119: Towny Mafia
« on: October 18, 2018, 03:34:47 am »
I'd like to join, but unavailable until 26th Oct.

4
General Discussion / Re: Maths thread.
« on: October 16, 2018, 04:20:41 am »
I think what you're saying here is addressed by the concept of logical completeness. I'm a bit rusty on this, but here's what I recall:

A set of axioms may be complete or incomplete. Now consider throwing in a new axiom (say sin' = cos).

If the original set of axioms is complete, then the new axiom will either cause a contradiction, or the new axiom will turn out to be derivable from the other axioms.

If the original set of axioms is incomplete, then it would be possible for the new axiom to be unprovable and yet not cause a contradiction.

So what you're effectively asking is: are my axioms for limit calculation, trig functions, derivatives etc complete?
If they are complete, then any result will either be correct or can be used to generate a contradiction.

5
No comment yet about how Fair is a Travelling Fair that doesn't travel? Such great flavor choices. Makes me hope that there is a project called "Minstrel" that just gives you +1 action.
I don't know how international it is, but in the UK, "Minstrels" are a brand of chocolates that resemble black Go stones.

So if we do get Minstrel as a project giving you +1 action, then I would be tempted to put a bag of Minstrels on it. Each turn you may take a Minstrel from the bag and use it as a Villager, for the duration of that turn only. During clean-up you eat the Minstrel if you haven't used it.

>eating chocolate while playing card games


Maybe we should start to interpret 'clean-up' more literally.

6
No comment yet about how Fair is a Travelling Fair that doesn't travel? Such great flavor choices. Makes me hope that there is a project called "Minstrel" that just gives you +1 action.
I don't know how international it is, but in the UK, "Minstrels" are a brand of chocolates that resemble black Go stones.

So if we do get Minstrel as a project giving you +1 action, then I would be tempted to put a bag of Minstrels on it. Each turn you may take a Minstrel from the bag and use it as a Villager, for the duration of that turn only. During clean-up you eat the Minstrel if you haven't used it.

7
The only ones I can't quickly think of a story for are Lookout/Sentry with regard to structures/locations. They see an Estate and... ?
... the invading hordes who are approaching it (the ones the master said to watch out for) ... and they do nothing.

8
Feedback / Re: Chrome Extension for f.ds!
« on: October 04, 2018, 05:38:21 am »
After reading through some more various threads that weren't actually talking about Dominion cards, I think the solution is to consider capitalization for matching card names. Way too many uses of words like "fair" and "page" and "haven't" that shouldn't be matched. Probably better to err on the side of a Dominion card being not matched than a non-Dominion card being matched.

Haven't we had enough of Dominion cards not being linked? Is this Fair to the card names we forget to capitalize? I say there's nothing nothing wrong with linking words to Dominion cards when they're not being used to name the cards. These Pages are on the Dominion forums, after all.

You mean the Dominion Forums.

we Forget to Capitalize?
It might wear a bit thin if Minion gets picked out every time we mintion Domineon.

9
I wonder if we will get an Artifact with negative-utility? One that you get by gaining/playing a card that would be too powerful on its own.
I reckon it would be very hard to make such a thing balanced.

10
Hmm, Flag Bearer is a bit of a player-2 advantage card, isn't it? Assuming multiple do-nothing terminal silvers aren't something you really want in your deck.

One of my first thoughts was that all the artifacts confer a player-2 advantage.
But thinking about it further, my theory is that whether or not there is a player-2 advantage comes down to the opportunity cost of regaining the artifact (assuming you've had it some time before).
- Positive opportunity cost means player-2 advantage. At any time when both players have made the opportunity cost the same number of times, the artifact will be with whoever had it second, which is more likely to be player 2.
- Negative opportunity cost means no player-2 advantage. The artifact will go easily back and forth without either player needing to undermine their position to get it.

Flag Bearer, you have to gain or trash a terminal silver. That is usually a positive opportunity cost. There is always something better you could be doing with the gain (eg gain Silver).
Treasurer, you have to play a terminal gold and forego trashing/gaining a Treasure. That is sometimes a positive opportunity cost, at least in early game when you'd rather play terminal gold and trash a Copper.
Swashbuckler, you have to play a smithy while you have cards in your discard pile and at least 3 coffers. My hunch is that saving up 3 coffers is often a positive opportunity cost (you could have spent them to accelerate your deck some other way).

So my theory would lead me to believe that in terms of player-2 advantage: Flag Bearer - yes; Swashbuckler - probably; Treasurer - probably.

Of course, the magnitude of any such advantage is affected by the power of the artifact on a given board. On a board where it's not worth getting the Treasure Chest then the magnitude of Swashbuckler's player-2 advantage is 0.

[EDITED to recognise that using Treasurer to get the Key comes at the opportunity cost of trashing a treasure.]

11
So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."
Thinking about it that way gives you a single trigger of Sewers during which multiple cards can be trashed (option 1), which is different from triggering Sewers multiple times (option 3).

Anyway, I'm happy to take the designer's word for it that Sewers triggers multiple times. My understanding of triggering subtleties might need a bit of tuning, but I can cope with that.

You know what? I enjoyed playing with Sewers during the preview weekend, I think it is one of my favourite card-shaped things; it's a simple concept that has far-reaching effects.

12
You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

You thought Knights were just tickling everybody?  And Graverobber, what does he do?  Death Cart?  If you have alternative narratives, they might be entertaining...

I understand 'trash' to mean 'remove from your dominion', by whatever means, violent or otherwise. The narrative depends on what causes the card to be trashed.
I suppose in the absence of knowing what was trashing my Flag Bearer, I naturally assumed a non-violent explanation. Because I'm that kind of person.

But certainly there are lots of possibilities; could be stabbed in the heart by a knight, could die of natural causes and be carried away in a death cart, could be promoted (upgrade your Flag Bearer into a Governor?), could be traded away for silver, or could be pushed into the sewers.

13
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:43 am »
Challenge #2 - Simple and Elegant Submission

This was going to be my original submission and after some thought I'm going to go back to this. Sorry for the switch! I'm going to remove the image of Pioneer so there is no confusion.


It's a paradoxical card. When it has its extra effect then you have actions after playing it, so it's extra effect doesn't happen and then you don't have actions left so its extra effect happens which causes it extra effect to not happen...
("If you would have no actions after playing this." should do what you want.)
A simpler solution would just be to remove the bit in brackets completely:

+1 Card. If you have no Actions: +1 Card and +2 Actions.

That works if you're being precise about when exactly your Action count gets updated.
It also works from a common sense perspective. I mean, what else could it reasonably mean?

14
You stab him in the heart.
Is that what trashing means? I never realised. I feel so bad. I'm not sure I can play this game any more.

15
Great. I'm happy with that, thank you Jeebus.

So to explore the idea a bit further, suppose I have a cube on Sewers and I play Steward, choose trashing, and trash Cultist and Hunting Grounds (both at once). Then there are three triggered effects:

A. Cultist: +3 Cards.
B. Hunting Grounds: Gain a Duchy or 3 Estates.
C. Sewers: Do this twice: You may trash a card from your hand.

Now I can choose which order I resolve these in. A B C, C A B, or whatever. I'm happy if that's the conclusion we reach.

But I'm aware that we are far from consensus on the Sewers effect here. Here are some different options:

1. Steward triggers single effect; C. Sewers: Do this twice: You may trash a card from your hand.
2. Steward triggers single effect; C. Sewers: You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
3. Steward triggers two separate effects; C. Sewers1: You may trash a card from your hand; D. Sewers2: You may trash a card from your hand.

Option 1 would be my preferred one, seems to be compatible with other things.
Option 2 could also work.
Option 3 is maybe the most intuitive one, and is the one implied by Donald in his initial reply, but I cannot (yet) see how this can be compatible with the idea of Steward trashing both cards 'at once'.

It matters because option 3 would allow you to resolve the triggered effects in the order C A B D, whereas option 1 would not allow that.

16
So 'when-trash' stuff is resolved after all the cards have been trashed, and yet it seems that the number of 'when you trash a card' triggers is somehow equal to the number of cards that were trashed.

Does that make sense?

Yes. You are exactly right

My real question is: how does that make sense?
I can think of two possible explanations:

1.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Stop handling triggers. Trash a card. Trash a card. Resume handling triggers.
- "When you trash a card" is unambiguous.

2.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Trash 2 cards (all at once).
- "When you trash a card" means: When you trash any number of cards, do this per card trashed.

What do you think? Is it one of those explanations? Or is there a better explanation?

17
So 'when-trash' stuff is resolved after all the cards have been trashed, and yet it seems that the number of 'when you trash a card' triggers is somehow equal to the number of cards that were trashed.

Does that make sense?

18
I don't think it matters but would it be Steward trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash - Sewers trash or Steward trash - Sewers trash - Steward trash - Sewers trash? Or can you do both?
Man, we're good at thinking up questions on this forum ;)
It's got to be trash 2 cards for Steward, then trash (up to) 2 cards for Sewers. The cards that say 'when you trash this' don't trigger until both cards have been trashed, so it would be strange if 'when you trash a card' had a different timing.

[EDIT: And yes it does matter. If the two cards trashed by Steward are both Cultists, then doing the Sewers trashing last gives you more choice of which cards you trash in the Sewers.]

19
Thank you sane Donald.

20
So Citadel + duration means the duration triggers twice both turns?
Only if it was the first Action played on the previous turn and the first Action selected to be played on the current turn.
No. You only play the duration card on the previous turn. You do not play it on the current turn.
So, with Citadel, if the duration card was the first action card played on the previous turn then the 'next turn' effect happens twice on the current turn. And in addition you can still play another action card twice on your current turn.

21
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Ruined cards
« on: September 28, 2018, 05:04:32 am »
How about:
Ruining Traveller: (Action-Ruins-Traveller) You may trash a card from your hand to gain a Ruins. When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for the next Ruins.

Not to be confused with:
Travelling Ruin: (Action-Ruins) Pass this card to the hand of the player on your left.

22
Does sewers not give a +2 after playing priest?
The extra trashing from Sewers is triggered before you get to the part of Priest which says "for the rest of your turn when you trash a card..."

23
Rules Questions / What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?
« on: September 28, 2018, 03:54:17 am »
I understand that trashing cards is not done one at a time, but all at once.

Eg you play Steward, you choose to trash 2 cards, then you trash them both together, then resolve any abilities that have been triggered.

So, in that Steward example, how many times has 'when you trash a card' been triggered? Once or twice? Does Tomb give you 1VP or 2VP? Does Sewers allow you to trash one or two more cards?

I mean, intuitively, I'm sure the answer ought to be 'twice'. But I feel that may be inconsistent with the rule that you don't trash cards one at a time.

24
So Citadel is almost the same as a Princed Throne Room. But not quite, I think. With a Princed Throne Room you have some flexibility over when you play the Throne Room relative to other start-of-turn abilities. Citadel is like a Princed Throne Room that has to go first always.

EDIT: Actually, I got that quite wrong!
Princed Throne Room lets you play an action card twice without using an action each turn, whereas with Citadel you still have to use an action each turn.
And a further difference is that Citadel works fine with durations.
So they're quite different.

25
If I have Star Craft Chart and play Patrol with 6 cards left in my deck, then according the the changed reshuffle rule I will have to shuffle before drawing any and can put a card on top and draw it with Patrol, correct? So we now have a case where the revised shuffle rule really does make a difference?
Ah interesting.
And a follow up question - on top of what? On top of your deck or on top of the cards you've just shuffled?

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