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Messages - Neirai the Forgiven

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1
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 13, 2018, 01:55:37 pm »
I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

Do you mean like:
Quote
Do this twice: Choose two: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
This would be strictly better than a bunch of stuff like Lab, Market, Lost City and such, so a lot more that $5. Kru5h's card is more in-line with existing $5s like Wild Hunt or Werewolf, Smithies with different options.

I was thinking along the lines of what you said, Choose two from the pawn list, then choose two from the pawn list again. The big headache is how to say "the first two choices must be different; the second two choices must be different as well but you can choose options that you picked the first time." I would then need to put a drawback of some sort on the card to bring it down to the $5 level.
That said, Kru5h's Mastermind is pretty good. I might add trash a card to the list to make it a bit more like Steward if I go that direction. It certainly would be easier to balance that a straight double-pawn (in fact, I think it's pretty balanced already.)

2
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 12, 2018, 10:16:12 pm »
I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

3
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 11, 2018, 08:42:04 pm »
Warning: this will be a big post. I'm using it to think outside of my head (I'm an extrovert.)

What can Mastermind be? If so, how powerful is it?

Let me start with the extreme cases:

+4 Cards, +1 Buy: basically Council Room without the drawback. So probably about $6 or $7 worth.
+$4, +1 Buy: again, basically Wine Merchant with no drawback. So again in the $6 or $7 likely.
+4 Actions, +1 Buy: Maybe crazy but probably not. Without Actions to go with it, 4 Actions is iffy.

+3 Cards, +$1, +1 Buy: The most similar card is, I think, Tragic Hero. so this is probably actually very close to $5 since it replaces Tragic Hero's payoff with a standard +$1.
+3 Cards, +1 Action, +1 Buy: The most similar card is still Tragic Hero, but this is non-terminal so it's around that $6 or $7 mark if not higher.
+$3, +1 Action, +1 Buy: The most similar card is probably Countraband, more or less. $5? $6?
+$3, +1 Card, +1 Buy:
+3 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy
+3 Actions, +1 Card, +1 Buy

+2 Cards, +$2. +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +2 Actions, +1 Buy: almost a final-form city.
+2 Cards, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy: OP Laboratory?
+$2, +2 Actions, +1 Buy: Festival
+$2, +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy: Hey look it's Grand Market.
+2 Actions, +1 Card, +$1, +1 Buy: Really Good Village

I got bored of this before I finished the list but I think we can agree that this card either needs to cost $6 or $7, or have an additional drawback, or lose the +1 Buy.

A fun little drawback if this is to go under Tomb Raider would be "at the end of your turn, if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn, trash this"; or maybe "You can't gain this if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn."
The card also has a baked-in drawback, which is that the first time you play it each turn, it's going to be random. But it's going to be a random really good card, most of the time.

For now I'm going to test it at no +1 Buy, with the "if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn, trash this" and it being underneath Tomb Raider. It may need to cost $4 at that point, in which case then maybe it'll get the +1 Buy back, or lose the additional drawback.

4
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 10, 2018, 05:12:52 pm »
Split piles in the set are either going to be interesting or uninteresting with Discoveries and Boulder Traps, I would call it uninteresting for the chance element it introduces to shuffle the piles but of course that's the intended spirit of those cards. Then suppose you go with it, would Tomb Raider be the best top? There isn't much synergy there.
Tomb Raider could make a good split pile though, to include an Attack or Treasure for it to target.

There's actually rules for that case; you treat the splits as separate piles. So if you have say, Patrician/Emporium, you shuffle into Patrician if there are any, and Emporium otherwise. It's not perfect but it doesn't "ruin" the split.

It totally ruins Castles. At one point I had a rule where any ordered pile was exempt, but it seemed weird not being able to use Discoveries properly.

5
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 10, 2018, 02:42:05 pm »
On a totally different thought, would Riches be more balanced if it trashed all the Treasures you have in play including itself? In that case it's still very powerful and a good removal, but also removes itself.

6
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 10, 2018, 01:44:41 pm »
As a probably ridiculously powerful alternative:

Quote
Mastermind - Action -$5
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back in any order, then get...

+ $1 per Treasure revealed,
+1 Action if you revealed an Action,
+1 Card if your revealed a Victory card.

I think I would put this under Tomb Raider as a split card, since it might be very powerful in a 5/2 start.
Otherwise it's at best a form of Grand Market with a bit of Cartographer thrown in, if the star align or you play them back to back or KC them.

7
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 09, 2018, 11:47:06 am »
I should also mention that I'm going to wait for Renaissance before finalizing, I'm very interesting in what new techs I can use to make cards.

But getting in front of Financier before that happens is probably a good idea.

Alternatives to Financier's concept would be some sort of "Wealthy Merchant" or a card for a split pile that sits under Tomb Raider. Financier could be that card but then it should sort of make sense there.

8
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 08, 2018, 06:23:36 pm »
So here's some theorycrafting:

Fortune is worth roughly $16.
But this trashes itself if you spent all that $16 worth, so maybe it's worth, I don't know, $14? $12?. Unless you didn't care about him trashing because you just bought two Provinces? And you figure it was worth it.
Of course, this is not going to give you the return that Fortune did because 1) it's an Action and 2) it's Terminal. Unless of course the money you have is from 8 Peddlers or Conspirators or something. At which point it's still giving you $16 of value for a $5 card. Of course, you can say that about quite a few payoff cards, Counting House could give you $16 of value for a $5 if you somehow played it after having gained a ton of Copper and dumping your deck into the discard pile.

I like the underlying idea of someone floating you money and then demanding a payback or else. In some ways that's just Capital though.

9
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 08, 2018, 06:02:55 pm »
Fanancier is an action if people didn't notice. So I think it's going to be pretty weak on average but very good with support?

Yes, he is intended to double your money before you can play any treasures. But perhaps he's too weak on average, and too strong with support.

The idea that I'm running with is, here's Financier. He evaluates your company's worth and if he likes it, he gives you a bomb of money. But he wants to make sure he gets a return on investment. If he doesn't, he walks.
He's "really temporary money", in that he lets you spend more than you have but then he's gone if you don't get a reward for it.

I'm definitely going to test him with different costs for how much you have to not spend to keep him, as well as with a "may" for when he doubles your cash, so that getting multiple Financiers is good?

10
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 08, 2018, 02:21:02 pm »
Alright, I think at this point I say, the time for being stubborn is at an end. I'll replace the card with something that uses the same art, probably an Action.

Very very early idea is something like:

Quote
Financier - Action - $5
+ $1

Double your $ if you haven't yet this turn.
-
At the end of your Buy Phase, if you don't have at least $2 unspent, trash this.
It's worth a fortune!

11
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 05:52:54 pm »
LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?

It looks very strong. Of course it depends a lot on the board, but I would guess it's too strong for $4.

If you have two Riches in play, they trash each other, right? I think that's how it would end up working.

Yes, they do trash each other.

12
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 05:09:42 pm »
LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?

13
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:44:31 pm »
No joke aside it's probably going to be "Curio" or something; the idea was that you dig up an Artifact, then trade it for money. So it's really what a Profiteer does.

14
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:18:38 pm »
So the problem of course is Art.

I'll rename it to a synonym, though, like.... ummm... Heirloom!

15
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:03:52 pm »
Yes, the Artifact thing has come to mind.

Unless there's some cute thing I can do to hook them in. Probably not.

16
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 07, 2018, 09:39:26 am »
So, Renaissance was just announced... This might change everything again.

17
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 02, 2018, 10:01:13 am »
Back on the subject of Riches, I've been thinking of running simulations* on it. It's slow as just a "Buy nothing but Riches and Provinces" strategy (17-26 turns to get 5 Provinces,) but then maybe there are cases where, say, maybe Workshop + Riches (Edit: it's faster, about 13ish) is broken OP. Also I found that if you introduce Platinums and Colonies, it's pretty easy to collide two Riches and at least one Copper or +$1 Action to get a Platinum while simultaneously removing lesser Treasures from the mix.

I've also tested Riches at $6, that makes it almost too slow to use; the only major benefit here is the aforementioned Platinum strategy.

Bear in mind as well that the thing with Riches is that you can't play it on the same turn as you play any treasures (Golds, Platinums) that you might actually want to keep.

In practice, though, the main feedback I've got with it recently is that it sort of feels like a Chapel that you can later get rid of by buying a Province. Possibly this is super strong.

*Note, these are manual simulations using python code, not the cool automated "play 10,000 games" simulations. I'm looking into how to set up Riches as a card on one of those.

I haven't yet tried the "cost it at 6 and make it give $5" angle yet, that might be better.


In other news, I'm trying the following crazy ideas:

Quote
Shipwreck - Action - $2
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Gain a Discovery onto the bottom of your deck. If you can't, trash this and gain a Treasure onto the bottom of your deck.
Setup: Add the Discovery Kingdom pile to the Supply
I'm also testing replacing "gain a Treasure" with "gain a non-Victory card" or "a card costing $6 or less." This also might need to cost $3.

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $4
-1 VP
When you discard this, the player to your left gains it.
-
When you gain this from the Supply, gain a Silver onto your deck.
The "gain a Silver onto your deck" all but fixes the drawback of randomly finding early Boulder Traps. This version also rewards you for building engines to help give it away more effectively. Antiquities as a whole tends to play towards some sort of Big Money ("Green and Gold") strategies so I'm fairly okay with this.
The method of giving it away seems to be lacking somewhat, although it works. One of the cool things about this version is it's better to give away the trap than to trash it; we had some fun coming up with strategies to most effectively pin the trap on the other player. The best, of course, is to make sure that you pick up your whole deck on the final turn :P.


18
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: August 01, 2018, 12:09:40 am »
My current thinking on Snake Charmer is that perhaps the attack should be "trashes a card costing $1 or more" or maybe "$3 or more".

19
Quote
A Treasure that "is so good that it devalues all other money"

This immediately made me think that Riches should make all non-Riches worth 0. Then I realized it couldn't do that, but it could give - 1 coin per Treasure in play. From there I arrived at Poor House...

Exactly. Arguably Riches and Pyramid are very close to each other's design space, too :(

20
Riches - What's the goal of the Treasure trashing portion of Riches? Is it a punishment to keep players from mass-buying Riches or is it to reward players with good, early Copper trashing? If it's the former, you can make it so you can't trash Copper and then maybe it's fine at $4 or $5. If it's the latter, well I'm not sure. :)

Fun Fact: Mint's on-buy, Treasure trashing is meant to be a penalty, but I think it is often regarded as a huge bonus to the card.

So the actual goal is to make a Treasure that "is so good that it devalues all other money." It's based on the story of Mansa Musa, the king of Mali, who was so rich that he couldn't fathom his wealth. He went on a pilgrimage through Northern Africa giving away gifts of money to all the people he met, in reverse amount to their wordly wealth. In some cases he gave beggars more wealth than the gross national product of the country he was in. Consequently he devastated North Africa's economy singlehandedly. He's pictured on the card; it so happens that the artist on my cards is also the artist that did Mansa Musa as a mod in Civ V.

I am aware that Mint was originally planned as a penalty but is actually a bonus. It's actually something that has salvaged the card which is actually pretty weak if you don't use it as a trasher.

21
I'll trial out Riches as a $6. Based on performance I may buff it if $6 makes it too weak.
Edit: Like, I get the problem with being able to run a deck that's just "collide Riches for the win". I'm not entirely sure that that strategy is too fast, but it works with a very, very predictable time, if your strat is just "buy all the Riches up, then collide them to get Provinces". If nobody else buys Riches you can get 5 provinces in a very predictable number of turns.

22
There's a lot of good thoughts coming out here, some of them require extra thought.

Stronghold is probably best losing its play an Attack and going back to $5, unless I can find a good attack rule that's worth $7.

I'm seeing the logic on Snake Charmer, although I ask that you consider that Snake Charmer is intended to be played in batches of more than one, if you need to choose 2-3 cards to trash, is that more of a thing? Alternatively, I could make Snake Charmer make you choose between Actions and Curses. But that might not be enough.

Riches... gee.
I'd like to see a game with a few much stronger players than I playing Riches. Asper and I have been trying to coordinate some TTS but my schedule (and timezones) haven't made it possible yet.

For the record, my playtesters aren't *that* bad as to not know the value of shedding the starting cards; it's just that Riches tend to stop you from effectively getting an economy going if you're not careful. But perhaps the rest of you are so much better than we are that the card goes nuts. If that's the case I might consider making itself trash itself, too.


Edit: for the record, I'm not as whiny and wounded as that previous statement makes me sound :)

23
Tomb Raider is about 100% unusable without one (otherwise a cool card with a cool theme).

I'm confused. Playing Tomb Raider without attacks in the game makes your opponents reveal their hands and you gain a copy of a revealed Treasure.
Tomb Raider is also an attack, so it can always defend against other Tomb Raiders.

Adding a keyword ("War" or something - "Muster"?) isn't a bad way to do it, but then I'd likely need to add the keyword to three or so cards. The problem is that none of the other cards interact with Attack cards. Graveyard could have it just for funs, but the third card is a mystery. (Edit: says the guy with Trap cards on only one card.)

Aquila, I've had the same thought. But you're right, I'm not including Spoils in the set. Although it's maybe tempting to add a similar card into the set; or even explore having Shipwreck gain Discoveries regardless of whether they are or aren't in the game.

24
Jerk!

No really, I don't mind much and it's a valid question. You're also not going to like my answer, though.
My playgroup is not *that* good. In fact, they're probably bad-on-average. I'm probably the worst of the lot, to be honest. Some are stronger than others, but none are high level. It's why I'm here in the variants and fan cards forum; playtesting can only net me so much information. Theorycrafting and knowledge of high-level exploits are something my test group doesn't have. Your responses have been the lighthouse helping steer the ship away from the rocks.

That said, I am building the set for my test group. I can't understate that. I'm very unlikely to suddenly score a license from DXV and RGG, because I'm not the guy. So my end goal is to have something that my friends and I enjoy. That said, I also don't want to print cards that my playgroup likes now, but later realizes are basically unplayably bad. I'd rather not print physicals of 27 cards only to find out that in one year the set will only 'really be' 20 cards because 7 cards are garbage. Permanent garbage, since I'm unlikely to make second or third editions once I've printed it.

So where am I at at the moment?

I'm trying out Stronghold as always costing $7 and always playing itself as an attack; this brings in the question of "but what if there are no attacks"? Maybe it needs to add an attack pile at setup, but then that's crazy amounts of text.

I'm trying out the following for Shipwreck:

Quote
[Shipwreck - Action -$?
 +1 Buy
+ $1
If your discard pile is empty, gain a Gold and a Copper onto the bottom of your deck in any order. Otherwise, look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure card from it and put it on the bottom of your deck.

The main issue I've had so far with Shipwreck is that if you don't have good Treasures in your deck, the card is probably worth $1. Then, if you *have* good Treasures in your deck but they're not in your discard pile, it's still worth $1. Or maybe $-1. On the other hand if you use it to gain a Gold and Copper, it's worth maybe $4 or $5 (see Cache or Skulk) but that also depends on which turn it is. Getting it for $4 with the multiple costs system, and then getting the Gold on turn 3 and then the Shipwreck on turn 4 so you get the Gold on turn 5 is pretty damn good. So if someone gets that lucky set of events but the other player(s) get an unlucky set of events, like only getting the Shipwreck when their discard pile is empty, it's pretty unbalanced.

This change may normalize the value more, but I have no idea what it should be priced at. It also may make it worse in practice, since now it might have just reversed what's lucky and what's not.


Boulder Trap, I'm trying this out but have no commitment to it yet:
Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $4
-1 VP
When you discard this, the player to your left gains it.
-
When you gain this from the Supply, gain a Silver onto your deck.

Hot potato? Maybe a better idea. Maybe horrid.

Oh yes, and then there's this guy,
Quote
Profiteer - Action - $3
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Choose one: cards with the same name cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0); or cards with the same name cost $1 more this turn.

Still has a the hokey "make action gains better" idea, but in a way that makes much more sense to the player.

25
The issue I'm having with the multiple costs in games is that nobody wants to buy the low cost version, even if it's a really good idea. Go figure.

There's a psychological aspect to cards. Stronghold was popular at $5, but at $5 or $7, people ignore the $5 and hold out for the $7. It's weird.

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