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Messages - grrgrrgrr

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1
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #176 - Game Changer
« on: January 26, 2023, 04:03:47 pm »

2
Best pairing I could think of for each Trait:
I agree with most but the following:

  • Fawning Island - Provinces come with a card that can take it out of circulation while keeping the points. Great for golden decks. Sanctuary would also do this just as well but giving Island the nod for "most improved (and the 2 bonus VP)".
     Edit: Also remembered Rebuild still exists. If you're playing Rebuild, more free Rebuilds as you're doing the thing is very powerful.
Island is obviously NOT the best card to pair it with, but it definitely gets nod for most improved as you said. Rebuild indeed is pretty obscene here. But I think the crown goes to Shepherd.

  • Friendly Village Green - You still get to meaningfully play it and gain another, great for a spammable card.
This interaction straight up does not work, due to Friendly activating in the Clean up phase. It is still fairly decent though. The best one is probably Groundskeeper.

  • Inspiring Black Market - Lots of chances to be non terminal. Knights would also be good.
Eh, no. An Inspiring card likes Black Market on the board, but Inspiring on Black Market is obviously not that great. I think the winner is a Smithy variant, that gets the potiential to become a superlab. (it is nice on Knight though, as it prevents Knight collisions)

3
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Mechanics Week 54: At the Border
« on: January 15, 2023, 03:32:22 pm »
  • The Border mat is included whenever a card's instructions refer to the "Border", "Incoming" or "Outgoing". I might be persuaded by using a type though.

I think you should CERTAINLY use an extra type. The setup is fully determined by the card's typing. Looters also have an extra type; it doesn't rely on the word "Ruins" in the card's instructions. Heck, even Fate and Doom cards have an extra type, even if it is for something as superfluous as shuffling the Boon and Hex piles (which Loot gainers strangely do not).

Cool mechanic though

4
I really feel like the Seaside 2E cards are more like early releases of Plunder cards than actual Seaside cards. But that's okay; it doesn't matter very much in which expansion a card gets released.

Several Prosperity 2E cards are in the same boat, which makes me wish the 2E cards were more focussed on the Bigger & Better aspect of Prosperity; i.e. having some $6 or $7 costs among the 2E cards. Although many are also just direct replacements.

That said, the expansion cards are still expansion cards, so they don't have to be simple. And the 2E cards are also released on a time that we already have many expansions; they don't have to "go back in time".

The expansions are on the aggressive side with replacing stuff. I in particular think Silk Road and IGG didn't need to be replaced.

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online
« on: January 02, 2023, 09:22:23 pm »
is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.

Seems like it's been quite a while since any of us have been WanderingWinder here.

He was a huge fan of Silk Road and on boards featuring that card, he was completely unbeatable. Now that card is gone ...

6
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: January 02, 2023, 02:58:57 pm »
I've read the Secret History about Tools and you've worried a lot about it and it is not as absurd as it seemed to be. Still, I cannot help but feel that multiplying King's Courts, Platina and City Quarters with it shouldn't be possible. I think it should be:

Tools (Treasure, $4)
Gain a card costing up to $6 that anyone has a copy of in play.

The Plunder card that is most shocking to me, however, is the Nearby trait. A Nearby Peddler looks very awful to play with, as does any cheap Nearby card when Quarry is on the board. A good fix IMO would be:

Nearby (Trait)
The first time you gain a Nearby card in your turn, +1 Buy

(It also kinda weirds me out that the +Buy-on-play trait was considered not interesting enough, but oh well)

7
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #172: Trait Me Right
« on: December 24, 2022, 06:40:44 am »
My Entry is a Linked Trait pair
Romeo & Juliet
These are temporary flavor I will likely replace them latter if this plays well. I thought it best to use an iconic pair to show how these are linked. Suggestions welcome.


Quote
Romeo
Trait
When you buy a Romeo card, gain a Juliet card.
After playing a Romeo card on your turn, you may play a Juliet from your hand.
Quote
Juliet
Trait
When you buy a Juliet card, gain a Romeo card.
After playing a Juliet card on your turn, you may play a Romeo from your hand.

I know Buy triggers are out dated but I am trying to keep the text box small.

I would honestly forego the gain part altogether. Simplicity is important and you also don't want to unlock the ability to gain a $6 cost by buying a $2 cost.

8
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online
« on: December 22, 2022, 06:25:34 am »
 It also has some highly valueable life lessons. Namely the best Crew is a Reckless Crew. And the best Landing Party is a Reckless Landing Party. EDIT: And a Captain also really likes Reckless stuff.

9
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite loops
« on: December 21, 2022, 03:55:19 am »
Patron+Pursue: buy Pursue, reveal 4 Patrons for +4 Coffers, spend 2 Coffers. Repeat.

I missed this one for the item of only buying events without gaining and playing cards. With the new Coffers ruling, Patron seems to be pretty useful for loops. Here are some more Patron examples with Fated:

Buy Scouting Party, shuffle 3 Fated Patrons revealing them for +3 Coffers, draw and discard them, spend 2 Coffers. Repeat.
Buy Gamble, shuffle 1 Fated Patron revealing it for +1 Coffer, revealing it with Gamble for +1 Coffer, spend 2 Coffers. Repeat. [Probably useless time waster]

I guess, using the Fated trait moves the card and so Avoid cannot move it as it is not among the to-be-shuffled cards where expected, right? Otherwise, every Avoid bought would yield +$1 on the next shuffle by discarding 3 uselessly revealed Fated Patrons which could make the Gamble loop above productive.

In the Fortress case, it seems, that Priest is the only way to produce any useful economy on trashing cards. So without ever gaining or playing or using Patron, we need Priest in the Fortress loop as well as Traveling Fair to produce the +buy we need. For the trashing events we can choose among Advance, Enhance, Maelstrom, Peril and Trade.

I will update the previous post accordingly.

The Gamble Patron loop has already been addressed through errata. (Namely by restricting Patron's reaction to the Action phase)

10
Reckless Crew
This thing does NOT have to return to the supply. Like at all.

Nearby Peddler
Dear programmers of Dominion Online, please prevent this one from popping up. (I've not encountered this one, but I dread the day I will)

First Mate + Nonterminal trasher
Trash stuff, then draw back to make up for the reduced handsize. First Maid can be quite nuts for sure.


11
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online
« on: December 18, 2022, 06:18:41 pm »
Very cool stuff overall. Kinda surprised there is no Trait that gives +Buy on play, but oh well.

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.

12
Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.

But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.

Right, just to clarify: category 2 (Watchtower, Siren etc.) doesn't happen "during" the gain, but after it. Category 1 (Armory etc.) tells you to gain in a particular way. The "modified" destination is part of the gaining, so to speak.

That, IMO, is not a clarification at all, as on-gain effects happen simultaneously with the gaining (see Innovation + Skirmisher). I'd argue that "determining the expected/default location" (what category 1 entails) happens directly before the gaining.

Category 3, on the other hand, is about effects that happen after the gaining.

And about Siren, the proper way to make it "properly" is probably to use "first" in the text to indicate it has to happen before other on-gain effects, similarly to Donate. Ditto with Gatekeeper. But there are obviously very valid reasons for not going for an approach like that. (as an opposing Gatekeeper would still let you bypass the mandatory trashing)

13
Well I'll take a stab:

- Armory, Sculptor aren't optional. They gain directly to a specific location and so Siren can then simply trash itself, no stop-moving involved.
- Traveling Fair and other seal/topdecking variants don't happen immediately. You're given an option after gain. They could have been worded as "you may gain it to the top of your deck" rather than put it on top of your deck, but they weren't, for..reasons? I don't know why offhand, but it's how they were all made--I would guess because it made for the simplest wording.
- Replace isn't optional, but there is a decision involved based on the card's type. It's simplest to gain first and then make that determination, vs. describing two different locations on the card itself.
- Summon sets aside after gain because that's how you set up things for the next turn without a duration card involved. It could have been created as "Set aside a card" without using gain, but then other on-gain things wouldn't trigger and that would be confusing.

In general, when all these cards were designed the goals were:

1) Ensure they functionally work as they should in all situations
2) Make them as easy to understand as possible
3) Minimize confusion

A 4th goal of, say, "ensure they all interact exactly the same way with another card that does on-gain things like Siren" .. well, that was never a goal because it would lead to more awkward wordings. (1), (2), and (3) are far more important game design considerations.

Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.

But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.

14
2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?

it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:

(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)

There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)

(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)

When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.

I've been thinking about this for now, and I think by myself: is this really the logical route? In particular, it really seems really weird that "when you gain this, put it into your hand" and "this is gained into your hand" aren't functionally identical.

The no visiting rule (which only applies to category 1 if I understand correctly) in particular seems to be designed to be able to use moving on-gain effects on cards that are gained into your hand or onto your deck. So to me, it seems logical to broaden the expected location for gained cards to:
a) Your discard pile
b) Your hand
c) A specified location in your deck (which means that if the gained card entered your deck pre shuffle, it can no longer be moved)

As cool as being able to dodge Siren's restriction with optional topdecking, it is something that Armory and ideally also Replace should be able to do as well if we go for it IMO.

That said, I know I cannot outthink the development team, so I'm pretty sure they have good reasons why it is the way it is now.

15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:48:13 pm »
Cool stuff so far. Sac of Loot definitely seems very strong here, as it is essentially a Treasure Trove that doesn't gain those pesky Coppers.

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

16
Pretty cool to see a fan mechanic pretty much making it to official Dominion. And Donald X's designs are obviously much better than the stuff I could ever come up with.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20890.msg875201#msg875201

The Siren stuff is pretty nifty too.

There have been 2 very common rules questions in the discord
2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?

it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:

(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)

There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)

(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)

When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.

Ooh nasty. Definitely falls into the "keep rules compact and encourage players to materialize every aspect of them" type of board game design, which is nifty.

17
Tools looks very busted with stuff like King's Court or City Quarter, or just about any 5 cost that you'd want as many copies of as possible. But I guess the testing team thinks otherwise. (or is the team doing too much now?)

Rest looks really cool though.

18
I'm not sure if this has already been brought up, but Trail + Way of the Mouse Workshop is absolutely nuts. The first player that hits $4 can get all 10 trails. In many instances, this is instant win.

19
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: October 13, 2022, 05:13:02 pm »
They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

Possession aims to do that, but it still falls short of that aim despite many errara, mainly w.r.t. deck ordering and removing cards from the deck other than by trashing (including "return to supply" and passing with Masquerade). My suggested fix could literally be worded as "At the end of that turn, the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand and everything else belonging to them are returned to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn, with the deck reshuffled."
So the "formerly possessed" player gets to play with the same hand they drew before the Possession turn, and any cards or tokens they lost during that turn are returned to them.

I don't see an obvious "future-proofing" problem with that; and anyway you could always make new errata should future mechanics make it necessary. It would also work with Masquerade; the passed card remains in the other player's deck despite also returning to the possessed player's deck - if there's no copy of that card left in the supply, the online server can just create a virtual extra copy of that card.
(For IRL play, I would just not allow Possession and Masquerade to be in the same kingdom, or forbid Masquerade from being played on Possession turns.)

After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where any tokens acquired are aquifer by you, you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that would be removed from their ownership are set aside and discarded during cleanup, and all tokens are moved to the place at the start of the turn, all reserves called are returned to the tavern mat instead of being discarded, and all flippers are returned to itís starting side.

Keywords:
Acquired: The act of gaining ownership over a card, token, or landscape, such as taking debt, taking a state, gaining a card, exiling a card from the supply, being passed a card from another player, or exchanging one card for another.
Flippers: anything that stores info by flipping, such as the journey token or Miserable/Twice Miserable.

As far as I am aware, this can only mess with order, play permanent durations with thrones or bad targets, put cards from deck onto their mats/remove from mats, and get rid of greed/???? from hexes. Exiling/Islanding might be a problem, but it isnít terribly wordy, includes only 2 new words, and takes care of most interactions, including minor ones like flipping the journey token face up (bad) or face down(good), and stops from flipping to twice miserable(cursed village is the only way barring WotM if I remember correctly.)

In offline play, I think it's preferable if you can go for an approach that doesn't mandate remembering the starting state, and flippers are also rather specific and non-problematic. I do like the approach for cards that leave the deck. I'd go for the following:

Quote
After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that they would gain are moved to your discard pile. Any cards that would cease to be theirs are set aside and moved to their discard pile at the start of clean-up. Directly before and after the turn, both players exchange their collectible tokens. At the start of clean-up, they put their deck onto their discard pile.

20
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: October 01, 2022, 11:18:38 am »
I think the Town Crier pile wasn't very well executed. As a replacement to the Town Crier pile, it'd be more interesting if we got the following Ally:



Town Crier itself would be a standalone pile consisting of 10 cards, that could be exclusively used as an extra pile for this card. Its price would be bumped up to $3.

21
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: October 01, 2022, 07:52:26 am »
Black Market
$3 - Action
+$2
You may buy an Event from the Black Market deck once this turn.  If you do, +1 Buy.

Setup: Make a Black Market deck out of 5 unused Events.  (You may look through the Black Market deck at any time.)

Note: If you play multiple Black Markets, you may buy the same Event multiple times (unless the Event is once per turn/game) and/or buy multiple different Events.

I've been using this for a while in my IRL games, since using Events makes setting up and putting away the game so much easier.  It also eliminates the randomness and asymmetry of Black Market (the two largest complaints).  The simplified wording (borrowed from Donald X) does remove playing Treasures in the Action phase, but there are other ways to do that now so we don't really need Black Market for that novelty.

Well, this is obviously just an idea for different card, rather than BM errata. It is interesting, for sure. Since the Plunder expansions uses Events, maybe we get to see something like that there.

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.

For online Dominion, the most elegant fix imo would be just to return the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand, play area, tokens etc. to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn (except that the deck is re-randomized). So Possession stops being hurtful to the possessed player in any way, while keeping its "intended" functionality.

But for real-life play it would often be very tedious to reset the deck to its previous state.

This is actually something that Possession aims to do already, but it is just very hard to formulate this in a future proof way. I mean, Masquerade is also a thing. And I think returning to the pile is the thing that needs to be fixed most urgently, to make Way of the Horse not completely degenerate. (it is also a universal mechanic).

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

22
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: September 20, 2022, 03:41:38 pm »
My ideal fix for throning Durations would be to completely overhaul the way Durations work by having them always leave play the turn you play them and then giving you tokens to track any lingering effects. Of course this would completely unbalance everything, but it would also get rid of any and all tracking issues forever, and greatly simplify the rules.

This is a cool idea. It'd obviously require each Duration pile to come with 10 tokens (which may not even be enough with TR variants and Command cards). An alternative is to have whole bunch of Duration tokens, that have a different color for each player. When a player plays a Duration, they will move a Duration token to the card's pile. I guess Seaside would've been the expansion to facilitate the tokens, and non-Seaside owners have to get tokens from other games (such as Ticket to Ride). This would indeed remove the need to mention non-Duration in pretty much any instance. But obviously, all Durations would have to be redesigned, except Highwayman.


Working on fan 3rd editions, mostly compiling fan cards I like.

I'd keep most of these except for Possession (I don't think it's fixable) and Inheritance. I miss old Inheritance too, but "yours" seems too tricky.

In general I'd use the Donald X way of "replacing" cards - creating a completely new card with some of the effects of the old one.

Other errata I'd make though, most of which I posted in the "revisions to published cards" thread:

Wishing Well. Sea Chart, Patrician, Vagrant, Magpie, Will-o-Wisp - Changed to be like Sorceress, so they interact with the top card of your deck, not the 2nd top. You reveal the card and put it into your hand, and if it meets the criteria, the reward is +1 card. (Herald and Ironmonger are left alone due to the clunkiness of the alternatives)
Patrol - Scout effect happens first, then the +3 Cards, so even playing just 1 Patrol is meaningful (arbitrarily reordering cards sucks)
Charlatan - You set aside a Curse for the rest of the game. If you did, gain a Copper. (so other cursers are still relevant when it's on the board)
Catacombs - No longer has "Choose one" in the words to remove a weird interaction with Elder
Procession - As posted earlier. You gain the card costing $1 more after Throning the card, but trash the card you thrones when you discard it from play. Works with Durations again.
Counterfeit - Still works with Durations, and trashing happens on discard
Crypt - Still works with Durations, setting aside happens on discard
Bonfire -  "During clean up this turn, you may trash up to 2 cards you discard from play"
Research - Uses tokens like Garrison instead of set aside cards
Courier - "If it isn't empty, discard the top card of your deck". I never liked the dynamic of shuffling your deck so you can discard a card from it so your card doesn't work as well.
Lich - You can't skip more than one turn - "+6 cards, +2 Actions, skip the turn after this one".
All Extra Turn cards - Now subject to the "extra turns rule", you can't take any more than one extra turn after your first. This simplifies the wording on a lot of cards. They all lose "if the previous turn wasn't yours", and Outpost loses the "one per turn".

Agreed with most of them, except:
Wishing Well: Disagee with this particular one. Without topdecking (which is still the vast majority of time), you make a guess based on what you want and what is still in the deck. This works better if you draw a card before making the guess.
Patrol In a green-free deck, this essentially becomes "Look at the top 4 cards. Put three of them into your hand and topdeck the other". Is that what you want? Not sure about it.
Procession This means procession no longer works with on-trash effects, one of DA's defining features. In addition, Donald X also said there should be nothing of interest happening during the Clean-up phase, except the start. This is also why Donate got errata. Also, what is your stance on my first suggestion? I'm curious!
Crypt I must see your final version on this before I can make a judgement on this. Sounds like it's going to be wordy and impractical. Better to just not allow cards that aren't going to be discarded from play this turn.

10. I don't like basing it off of ownership. I would say "during your turns, all Estates..." instead. With the new Donate errata, there is no more between-turns stuff happening either that might mess with that.
I actually suggested this one to Donald X in the 2019 errata thread, and he had a very valid reason not to go for this version. It would not work with inherited Moats and inherited Duplicates during the opponent's turn, which would be counter-intuitive.

23
Variants and Fan Cards / Fan errata on pre-existing cards
« on: September 18, 2022, 05:57:39 am »
In this thread, I wanna share my ideas for errata hat could've been part of the 2022 errata. You may consider me obsessed, and maybe I am, but hey, why not share it nonetheless.

1. Throning Durations

My only idea that doesn't involve a specific card. The rule change is as follows.
Quote from: My Rule Changes
Replay tokens are introduced. Every time you play a card an extra time, put a Replay token onto the card. Throne Room (and all non-Duration variants) will always leave play at start of Clean-up.

From a balance standpoint, this change might be a little concerning, as KC+Caravan becomes much stronger, whereas the already strong KC+Wharf becomes borderline insufferable. Not to mention Throning Hireling or Prince becomes insanely good. But this change would eliminate pretty much all ongoing tracking issues that Throning currently has. It solves the Citadel issue. It solves Procession + Throne Room issue. It solves the Captain-throning a Duration issue. And so on. Plus it just creates much simplicity. I mean, isn't TR+TR+Duration still one of the most common rule questions?

On top of that, Replay tokens are purely secretary and it is completely up to the player how these are used. For instance, if you throne a Barge and only choose the next-turn effect once, you could forgo the replay token, making it look as if you only played Barge once.

2. Treasure Map


The card that is infamous for not having built-in accountability. Of course, this matters little in practice as you don't cheat period, and there is very little gained out of cheating on this, but it just feels strange that Donald X went for the extra mile with Throne Room and Moneylender, but not this one.

3. Messenger


The errata this got in 2022 makes this card rather clunky, as the effect doesn't work with Treasure gaining. And I also don't see why this shouldn't work with Workshops. If making this not work multiple times in a turn is the goal of the restriction, why not go for this route?

4. Black Market


What kinda bothers me about Black Market, is that the cards you gain out of Black Market don't have a pile. This makes the cards incompatible with Swap and Way of the Butterfly, and very strong with Way of the Horse. However, doesn't it make sense to have the Black Market deck itself as "its pile"? Here is an attempt to change that. After all, cards like Experiment and Encampment didn't get their rewording for nothing.

5. Masquerade


Masquerade, the Attack that isn't an Attack. It made sense in the original version, as there would be much unclarity on how it would work when Moat blocks it. However, after the 2016 errata, its text is one word away from having this case fully covered.

6. Circle of Witches


The original version was a little overfocussed on making Liaisons conditional Cursers, making the Ally incredibly clunky with Guildmaster. This version is wordier, as it also needed to take care of Import, but its interaction with cards that let you gain Favors over the course of the turn is much better (of course, forcing Actions to be in play can be annoying with the Treasure-Liaisons, but that condition is rather easy to meet).

7. Island Folk


Island Folk is easily the strongest Ally. What makes it so utterly ridiculous is the fact that you only need to gain 5 Favors over the course of 2 turns in order to activate it every time. With this change, you will have to gain the 5 favors in a singular turn for consistent activation. Of course, if the Island turn is exceptional, this can be frustrating, but c'est la vie.

8. Way of the Turtle


There are 3 Ways that pack the yet-to-be-solved problem of being able to create an invisible Duration effect in conjunction with Throne Room. With Way of the Turtle, this is rather easy to solve by making the effect trigger on discard (which won't happen with TR+Duration). For Horse and Butterfly, this could be solved by using the Acts mechanic (see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20806.0)

9. Possession


The change I made is making cards not leave the deck when they are supposed to return to their pile.

It could be argued that Possession needs more errata. It could also be argued that the only way of fixing Possession is treating it like a Zelda CDi game (pretending it doesn't exist). But I think the ability to demolish an entire deck with Way of the Horse is still something that needs to be taking care of. With this change, Possession and Way of the Horse still interact very strongly, but no longer brokenly strong like it currently does.

10. Inheritance


"Inheritance no longer works this way! Get over it!"

The 2019 errata already brought some unwanted concessions, such as making the card desinteract with Reserves and Reactions, as well as becoming pretty insane with one-shots, especially Encampment. But Donald X has made some good efforts in regulating when a card can be played and when a card can leave play, making the issue of caring about the owner even less of an issue (although Throning inherited one-shots can now be even more confusing with the removal of the Loose Track rule). On the flipside, the post-errata effect now also makes the card work improperly with Recursion Durations. Inheriting types was also a huge plus of the old version.

This is ONLY about Inheritance. BoM and Overlord should absolutely NOT revert to their pre-errata versions.

What do you guys think?

24
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 18, 2022, 02:15:04 pm »
"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

Another thing to consider is that on-gain effects are already depleted by the first time you have the card in hand, so the blue color would be misleading.

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so. Especially Tunnel as that is a Victory card. And on top of that, the trash effect only occurs once, while the discard effect could occur every shuffle.

But it is also just historically determined.

25
I think the decision to include Reactions that allow the card to play itself, and card that let you play cards outside of their intended phase was kinda dubious. But most of them were pretty simple at that. I do think that including Clerk in Prosperity 2E wasn't the best decision.

Your assessment against the Reactions is rather dumb. Reactions have a different coloring to remind that they have an additional effect. Is Moat also suddenly too complicated?

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