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1

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Heroes

« on: August 03, 2022, 11:34:24 pm »

I don't understand Cloister. Does "play it" refer to playing the Cloister, or playing the Victory Card? If playing the Victory Card, what exactly does playing a Victory Card do? I mean if it's an Action-Victory then you get the benefit of saving an Action over playing it normally. But otherwise, what's the point? And does the Cloister stay set-aside forever?

*Edit* Ok, now I'm pretty sure it means play the Cloister again; discarding the victory card is just there to nerf the re-playing of Cloister slightly, so you can't trash the only Estate you have early on. But is it necessary to set the Cloister aside to replay it? Wouldn't "you may play this again" work just the same and be clearer? If the concern is for a Cloister that has left play, the regular lose-track rule, combined with the newish rule that you can't play lost cards, should be all you need.

The "set aside" clause of Cloister, I really wish I could've done without, but unfortunately, Throne Room exists. 3/4 into the making of Heroes, I had to change the wording of Cloister to deal with Throne variants. The problem is, you could Throne a Cloister. Next turn, you could decide, on your first play, to discard a Victory card to trash a card from your hand, and on your second play, to not replay Cloister. The end result is a Cloister that is now replayed once each turn, but with a Throne Room still attached to it. Thus, a tracking issue arises. The worst offender is Citadel, which may add an extra Cloister play (or not) each turn, making it so easy for you to loose track of how many times you may or may not replay Cloister. The set aside clause effectively forces Cloister to detach itself from any Throne Room that may linger with it.

Admittedly, it's not a big deal, because who would want to trash that much constantly from their starting hand? Still, in the end, I decided to be thorough about it. Maybe the massacred wording made Cloister not such a great addition to Heroes in the end.

Makes sense. Part of the confusion came from me not immediately realizing how discarding a victory card was relevant at all if Cloister was being replayed; thus thinking that maybe the victory card is being played instead. That's just my oversight; although it's not great if you need to grasp a design/strategic decision in order to fully understand the wording on the card. Maybe just find out if I'm the only one who was unclear about what "it" was referring to.

2

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Heroes

« on: August 03, 2022, 03:57:34 pm »

I don't understand Cloister. Does "play it" refer to playing the Cloister, or playing the Victory Card? If playing the Victory Card, what exactly does playing a Victory Card do? I mean if it's an Action-Victory then you get the benefit of saving an Action over playing it normally. But otherwise, what's the point? And does the Cloister stay set-aside forever?

*Edit* Ok, now I'm pretty sure it means play the Cloister again; discarding the victory card is just there to nerf the re-playing of Cloister slightly, so you can't trash the only Estate you have early on. But is it necessary to set the Cloister aside to replay it? Wouldn't "you may play this again" work just the same and be clearer? If the concern is for a Cloister that has left play, the regular lose-track rule, combined with the newish rule that you can't play lost cards, should be all you need.

3

General Discussion / Re: Movies: Any movie buffs?

« on: August 02, 2022, 11:28:27 pm »

I just watched Upstream Color last week (finally). And then just watched it again tonight. It's wonderful, and definitely something that needs to be watched more than once. Not something that's for everyone, though.

4

Rules Questions / Re: Donating your Entire Hand

« on: August 01, 2022, 01:26:39 pm »

* Sacred Grove (The Mountain’s Gift)

Or opponent plays Sacred Grove so much that you get 3 Will-o'-Wisps from Swamp's Gift, and then a Gold from Sky's Gift. (Or just Will-o'-Wisp plus the right Way).

5

Rules Questions / Re: Donating your Entire Hand

« on: July 31, 2022, 12:23:58 am »

Ambassador, Embassy, Mountebank, and Messenger can get you out of it. But nothing you can do without some help from opponents.

6

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies

« on: July 29, 2022, 01:32:40 am »

This one might not even be a negative synergy, but an inverse reverse negative synergy?  Possession and Barbarian.  If your opponent has Barbarians it becomes pretty dangerous to play them, as Barbarian smashes to a curse like 30% of the time.  You won't lose the cards you trash, and if you faux trash good cards, you could get some free lower-cost cards, but if you could easily cause yourself to gain a curse too.

Anyone not possessed still trashes their cards, including the possessor.

oof. u are right.then it is even better.  as you force them to choose between the 2 coins or trashing their own cards.  Really makes Barbarian a nice possession counter.  More fun than greening your deck to death to spite them.

That’s just all attack cards, though.

7

Rules Questions / Re: Donate "first"

« on: July 22, 2022, 01:12:00 am »

I’ve always interpreted “until” as being a separate thing from setting up a future trigger. That is to say “until your next turn, X” is different than “starting now, X. At the start of your next turn, stop X”. So when it becomes your next turn, Haunted Wood simply instantly stops; it doesn’t set up a trigger to handle the stopping of Haunted Woods, where you treat it like other triggers that you can order and such. It’s just a statement of fact, it is currently your next turn so Haunted Wood’s time is over.

Same with “this turn” stuff. It’s not setting up something where at the end of turn you handle the trigger to stop doing it. Rather it simply means that it doesn’t work anymore if it isn’t still this turn.

8

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is there any reason that the two Positive interactions threads aren't merged?

« on: July 19, 2022, 10:32:28 pm »

As I recall, the origin of the second thread was that AdamH was hoping for the first thread to involve strictly real scenarios and not theory-crafting about potential combos, but then too many people were posting general discussion about various potential combos. So the second thread was created not because there was debate over what constituted an interaction, but rather to post only things that actually happened in a real game, thus avoiding tangent discussions about other possible combos that may or may not ever happen in a game.

As you can see from my last post in that second thread, the idea of it didn't quite work out as hoped.

9

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Mechanic: Jail

« on: July 19, 2022, 03:48:55 pm »

The wording on the Jail mat is a bit confusing, since it refers to "the first played card", but I assume it means "the first jailed card"? Outlaw should probably say costing less than this instead of up to , to deal with cost reduction properly. Renegade shouldn't have a dividing line; other "this turn" cards don't.

As a whole I'm not sure how the concept would play out. In general the strongest use would probably be to get rid of junk, but then after 4 junk cards are already there, people can't use it to get rid of junk anymore. Puting good cards in jail seems dubious; you'd rather have them in your deck and you risk giving your opponents a free good card.

10

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: July 19, 2022, 01:47:36 pm »

Me, holding my giant King's Court, Witch, and Cultist mega-combo hand that will give my opponent 10 Curses and 10 Ruins on my turn, waiting for him to finish his turn.

My opponent, buying new Donate on his turn.

Me, releasing that new Donate wording isn't really relevant here, with old Donate my opponent would have simply bought Donate the turn after I played my combo instead of the turn before.

11

Dominion General Discussion / Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)

« on: July 19, 2022, 11:42:47 am »

Keep in mind I'm talking about teaching the game to newbees. Yes, Tidal Pools is simple to execute but the complexity comes in when is a good time to have it. So that is some of the complexity I am referring to. Not just the complexity of how the card works, but when it is most useful or when to avoid it. For the old cards it was more straight forward to tell them good always, rarely or never (some of those were gotten ride of - good riddance), or in combination with x. For more of these new card the answer can be only "it depends".

Well this seems like a different complaint, one that's seems like a very weird thing to complain about. That's not complexity, that's depth of strategy. Why should new players need to be told whether a card is good or not? Clearly the whole fun of the game for a new player is in making that determination for themselves and then either being proven right or wrong. There in no way at all that I can see "it's not obvious how good this card is" as a drawback for any card for any new players.

And yes, at the table even our group of 4 experienced players miss things. We're shuffling our deck and getting a new hand or looking at our hand trying to figure out how we want to play it or even miss leaving duration cards out when we clean up because there are lots of cards out there, had to figure out how much $ you had and what to buy, and when you clean up, you rake the cards in forgetting about duration cards or a supplies until the next turn when you wonder if you had duration cards you forgot to leave out. It happens.

Yes and my group has on multiple occasions accidentally shuffled in a newly-played duration card during cleanup. That's not an issue with any new cards; that's an issue with duration cards as a whole. *Edit* I saw your other reply where you addressed this; I understand what you mean now.

12

Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?

« on: July 18, 2022, 08:53:55 pm »

Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)

Pretty sure he used Kiln as the example because Urchin has a "first" and so does Kilk; he was picking something that had the same timing window. If Kiln didn't say "first", then there wouldn't be a question to ask, by the time Kiln triggers and lets you play the Urchin, it is clearly too late for Urchin to do anything, because it is no longer during the "when play, first" timing. Moat, Kiln, and Urchin all have the same timing, they trigger after the card is put into play, but before the on-play instructions of the card are followed. Yes you have started to play the card, but that's not really relevant to the question; what's relevant is that the trigger window is the same.

13

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: July 18, 2022, 02:58:14 pm »

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so.

I'm pretty sure I remember Donald basically saying this exact thing about why Fortress wasn't a reaction; that trashing is already something you pay close attention to.

14

Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?

« on: July 18, 2022, 02:54:04 pm »

This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.

As I understood it, AJD's suggestion was with a dividing line, so not a when-play ability.

Ah, yeah I completely misread it. Then his suggestion changes the card far less than using the new "this turn" wording would. It remains a "while this is in play" ability but without actually using those specific words. I guess whether that's good or not depends on the very specifics of why Donald wants to get rid of "while this is in play". Things like people thinking Throne Room should work with it when it doesn't, like old Goons, don't end up mattering, though only because you can't trash a card twice. And the types of people who think that Throne Room worked with old Goons aren't the types of people to thinking about things like "well technically it triggered twice because you played the card twice, it's just that you can only successfully trash it with 1 of those 2 triggers, you could choose either one but not both".

15

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: July 18, 2022, 01:59:48 pm »

It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.

The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.

But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.

16

Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?

« on: July 18, 2022, 01:37:22 pm »

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?

I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.

It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

I remember back in a somewhat recent Livery rules discussion thread, I argued for a similar interpretation of Livery, that "this turn" could be interpreted as "from now until the end of turn", and that it would be part of the triggering condition itself, not just a time limit during which the thing could trigger.

17

Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?

« on: July 18, 2022, 01:33:53 pm »

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.

Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)

Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:

1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.

Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.

4a would be "fail to trash Urchin because it's not in play"; the stop-moving rule is never invoked. (Recall my wording is "you may trash this from play".)

Indeed I missed the "from play" part.

Just like how it's already the case that every time throughout the game that you play an Attack card, every other player's Diplomat triggers, the follow the instruction "you may reveal this from your hand", and then fail to reveal it when it's not in their hand.

This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.

18

Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?

« on: July 18, 2022, 10:38:19 am »

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.

Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)

Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:

1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.

Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.

19

Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance + Royal Galley

« on: July 15, 2022, 11:42:41 pm »

This would be the same with Band of Misfits or Overlord, right? Or is there something about Inheritance I’m missing that matters to this question?

20

Rules Questions / Re: Elder on original Oracle

« on: July 14, 2022, 11:03:27 am »

I just noticed that original Oracle says "you choose one: either he discards them or he puts them back on top in an order he chooses."
I guess if I play with that card and Elder, it would let me discard Tunnels and then topdeck (and draw) them.

Wouldn't stop-moving rule apply here? The "put them back" ability expects the cards to be in the "temporarily revealed from the top of your deck" place, but instead they have moved to the discard pile. Even though the new discard pile rule allows you to pull stuff out of the discard when required; Oracle doesn't know to look in the discard.

My thinking is that Oracle discarded the cards, so it expects them to be in the discard pile, so it doesn't lose track. Compare to Vassal. (This is why it's important to think of abilities as units. Oracle's play ability consists of all the instructions you do when you play it. Each individual effect or instruction can't lose track; only abilities track cards and can lose track of them.)

Good point, I think you're right. Then it just becomes a question of the awkwardness of going by old card wordings combined with new cards. Was it ever ruled that Cellar should actually be played differently with Way of the Chameleon based on which edition of Cellar you are using? Because I do believe it was ruled that old Nomad Camp never visits your discard pile (despite the wording implying it does), and that old Envoy doesn't cause you to draw (which mattered for your -1 card token).

So it would feel more natural to me to also rule that old Cellar and old Oracle don't interact with things that specifically look for "+cards" or "choose one". But indeed that is a potential problem for people playing IRL who don't look such things up.

21

Rules Questions / Re: Elder on original Oracle

« on: July 14, 2022, 10:46:49 am »

I just noticed that original Oracle says "you choose one: either he discards them or he puts them back on top in an order he chooses."
I guess if I play with that card and Elder, it would let me discard Tunnels and then topdeck (and draw) them.

Wouldn't stop-moving rule apply here? The "put them back" ability expects the cards to be in the "temporarily revealed from the top of your deck" place, but instead they have moved to the discard pile. Even though the new discard pile rule allows you to pull stuff out of the discard when required; Oracle doesn't know to look in the discard.

22

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.

« on: July 11, 2022, 02:13:55 pm »

Minion + Trail is a really strong combination. If you play a Minion with one or more Trails in hand, you draw additional cards for each Trail plus a Village effect for each one - especially useful if, as in the game where I found this combo, there are no villages, letting Minion + Trail fill the Village role. It's also a fairly useful counter to your opponent's Minion - with a single Trail in hand, you end up with 5 cards, and with more than one Trail, you end up with a net increase in handsize

Seems like this should work the same with Cellar, Storeroom, Forum, or Warehouse as well.

23

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Summary of all errata

« on: July 04, 2022, 12:11:02 pm »

As far as I know, Nomad Camp’s change was not functional; though the new wording is correct as to how it functions, while the old wording was not. It had already been ruled that Nomad Camp doesn’t ever go to your discard pile. (Same as Envoy).

24

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: July 01, 2022, 01:54:46 am »

Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).

Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
     * (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered

That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.

And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list.

I wish I had thought to use “acquire” instead of “get” when I wrote this thread 7 years ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116.0

I think Trail / playing a card is the only thing to add to my list since last time I edited it.

You missed Exchange. And actually we both missed buying a card. A card you buy becomes yours before you gain it, although with the new errata removing all on-buy triggers, I don’t think this distinction would ever matter.

25

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: June 30, 2022, 06:20:11 pm »

I don't know how I feel about the fact that playing a card from the Trash automatically means that the card is now part of your deck. We know from many other Command card examples that playing a card, leaving it there, does not cause the card to become part of your deck. It seems somewhat counterintuitive that "leaving it there" now means not only that the card doesn't move, but it also has an extra meaning that the card doesn't become part of your deck. I guess there's a new rule that any card that ends up in your play area automatically becomes part of your deck?

That's not an "extra meaning" for "leaving it there"; that's the entire meaning of "leaving it there"—you leave it where it is, instead of putting it in your play area. Trail doesn't say "leaving it there" (i.e., in the Trash), and the text of Trail specifies that the card may be in the Trash, so Trail self-playing from the trash moves it into the play area for the same reason that Golem playing a card moves it into the play area from set-aside-cards land. The stop-moving rule doesn't apply the way it would for say, Throne/Horse because Throne doesn't know to look for the Horse in the supply; but Trail does know to look for itself in the trash.

What I mean is that before Trail, it was never known that a card moving to your play area caused it to be part of your deck. Maybe that should have just been obvious, but nothing ever mattered for it.  Without such a rule, “leaving it there” only would affect a played card’s location; not its ownership. Because that rule exists, “leaving it there” now also prevents the card from becoming yours.

It was the same when Fortress was released. A new rule had to be added, specifically written or not, that says that a card you don’t own moving to your hand causes that card to be part of your deck.