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Messages - GendoIkari

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1
  • Watchtower and Tunnel avoid the problem by the lose-track rule (of the card you gained for the former, itself for the latter).

For accuracy; Tunnel avoids the problem by not being revealed from your hand. As clarified by Donald in the previously-linked thread, the multiple-reveal thing only applies when a card is revealed from your hand.

2
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Grey makes a boring card now and then.
« on: July 15, 2018, 02:30:42 pm »
Nice. Needs some sort of reveal-as-you-discard wording though.

3
Ahh I see what you mean with Firth guild. If that’s the case I could just add in each player (including you) reveal their hand.

But that isn’t a problem with me and my friends we don’t cheat and we certainly don’t lie unless the game tells us we can like in the games coup and sheriff of Nottingham. Games are just to have fun. It’s just a pass time. Or a hobby for me trying to create cards. We shouldn’t cheat anyways.

If someone is dishonest about how many Firth guilds they have in their hand, that’s their problem. They wouldn’t do that in a real tournament, lest they get kicked out.

But here the issue isn’t about whether or not you can trust people to cheat. This issue is that the rules of Dominion allow you to reveal the same card from your hand multiple times. It’s not cheating to do so; it is allowed by the rules.

4
But maybe I can change it. To

Setup: when you buy a victory take the angry bee swarm.

That could work if you change the wording to "In games using this, when you buy a victory card..." (See Duchess as an example).

Then you could also decide if you want it to be "when you buy a victory card take the Angry Bee Swarm", or "when you buy a victory card, if no player has the Angry Bee Swarm, take it."

5
Actually the person who starts with it has the advantage (angry bee swarm) because they will want to get rid of it as soon as possible so they will buy the majority of bee keepers anyways. The player who can play it the most has the advantage. And if your playing a 4 player game your less likely to end up with it in the end, if you start with it.

And even though it says random. If I played with just my friends I would volunteer to start with it first anyways.

That's backwards logic... any player can buy Bee Keepers if it's a good card worth having, and it doesn't give you an advantage for having the swarm. So starting with the swarm still just means that you are forced to either get Keeper, or take the penalty.

6

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.


Why does this "you can reveal a reaction card an infinite amount of times" rule exist? It seems completely unnecessary and only causes rule confusion.

It's to do with accountability as the contents of a player's hand is hidden information to the other players. So if the rule wasn't there then players could easily cheat by for example revealing a single Firth Guild 2 times when their opponent plays an attack claiming that they have 2 Firth Guilds in hand.

Exactly. It was just discussed at length recently, including Donald's thoughts, here. The real-card example is that there is an actual reason you might want to use both Secret Chambers if you had both in hand (and a Moat on top of your deck), but there would be no way of showing whether you were revealing a different one the second time, or the first one again.

7
For Firth guild.

I love attack cards and so even if everyone else had this I would still buy attack cards anyway.

But you wouldn't get to play them, because they will be discarded from your hand. They will be as helpful to you as buying a Curse.

Quote
Also I’m not sure why you think I could get unlimited coins because you can only reveal it once per attack.

No, the rules of Dominion allow you to reveal it any number of times. This comes up with Secret Chamber and Moat. All reaction cards that are revealed from your hand either have you discard/set them aside when you use them, or like Moat and Secret Chamber do not give increased benefit for using over and over.

Quote
Also I’ve played many games where I had like a dozen coin tokens at the end of the game I wasn’t able to use anyway. With the real guilds cards like baker I wasn’t able to use em all especially if there wasn’t an extra buy in the game.

If you end the game with a bunch of coin tokens leftover at the end, then you made a pretty big mistake somewhere and should have been able to win a lot sooner.

Quote
And it may seem unfair to one player to have an extra disadvantage. But there are already other cards and stuff that do that already anyway. Like twice miserable.

Twice Miserable doesn't start on a random player. The issue isn't that it gives negative vp, the issue is that one player at random has to start with it.

Quote
It’s a challenge making cards. If only there was a website that we could play online against the cpu with pre made cards. Kinda like rpg maker. If you can create your own rpg on a PlayStation 2. Then why cant make a card online that can also be play tested online. Then we all could tweak them better.

Oh absolutely! Don't take my criticisms as a statement that I think I could do better. I haven't designed any fan cards because I would be terrible at it. But I do know enough about Dominion in general to be able to point out issues. If you haven't yet, be sure to read through Rinkwork's guide. Even though some parts are out-dated, most of it still holds true.

Quote
And with book binding your only getting one more card. But maybe I can just max out the amount of coin tokens you gain. Like you may set aside up to 2 Actions.

One more card is huge. Moat would have to cost less than without the reaction. Smithy costs . Hunting Grounds costs . And keep in mind that going from to is a much bigger price increase than going from to . Even if this couldn't give you any coin tokens at all I think it would be too strong for . Put it this way... the first one you play IS a Hunting Grounds, a card. And the first Library you play is a Smithy. But Library costs more than Smithy; due to the ability to set-aside actions, and due to the fact that you can play when you have less than 5 cards in hand. So this card without any coin token ability at all should cost more than Hunting Grounds.

Um, a shorter summary, instead of looking at this as an upgraded Library, look at it as an upgraded Hunting Grounds, in the same way that Library is an upgraded Smithy.

Quote
So how would you word this with limited space I have on the card? So that you can get it with coin tokens? Also since you can’t get it without coin tokens it doesn’t make sense to have it generate it own coins. And also i wanted to make sure that there was at least 1 Card that generates coin tokens. I didn’t pick baker cause you start with one anyway, so I picked plaza so at least one would help you get it. And besides nocturne has a lot more cards that require other cards. Like exorcist, boons, necromancer ect. And having plaza is still tame to tournament.
Good point on why it doesn't help to have it generate its own coin tokens, I completely missed that. I can't think of a good wording, maybe someone else can. "If you have no treasures in play" could actually be a good starting point. Alternatively, you can do something like this:

King's Wood - - Victory
7[$vp]
_____________________________
When you would gain this, you may pay 4 coin tokens. If you do not, instead do not gain this.

That way you can try to buy it all you want, but you need to pay 4 coin tokens if you want to keep it. And the "would gain" instead of "when you gain" prevents Watchtower tricks from letting you keep it.


One other option:
King's Wood - - Victory
0[$vp]
_____________________________
When you gain this, you may pay 4 coin tokens. If you do +7[$vp].

This version lets you get it even without any coins, but if you did, it's a worthless card. It's a little stronger because you can gain it, get the VP, and then trash it.

Actually, it might just work better as an event. A cost event that lets you spend coin tokens to take [$vp] tokens. It couldn't be for 7 anymore, because you wouldn't have a dead card in your deck.


8
Beekeeping


+1 Action
If you have the angry bee
Swarm pass it to the player
To your left. You may discard
2 differently named cards. If
You did +2 Cards +2$.
————————————
Setup: one player randomly starts
with the angry bee swarm (State).
$3 Action


Angry bee swarm         (State)


        -3V

It isn't clear if you need the State in order to be allowed to discard for benefit or not. Is that part of the "if"? Or can you do that either way?

If that is part of the "if", then I don't know why you would ever buy this card. Unless your opponent's join in your little game, you just paid $3 for a Ruined Village. And also a sort of Duchy I guess... so if you happen to be the player who starts with Bees, you might buy this late; when you would be buying a Duchy anyway.

If you can do the discard either way, it might be a fair card; but the State just sort of adds an unfair randomness to it. The player who starts with the State is at a random disadvantage. Though if the card is good anyway, then likely the player who ends the game will have played on on their final turn, which just means they get a free Duchy on top of their normal game-end stuff.

9
Bookbinding

Draw until you have 8 cards
In hand, skipping any actions
You choose to; set those aside
Discard them afterwards. Take
A coin token for each action discarded.
———————————————
You may overpay for this, if
You do gain a duchy.
6+ Action

Probably way too good. It only costs more than Library (and and are not all that far apart in cost). Drawing 4 instead of 3 is way better. Even if that were the only difference. Adding in the Coin token bonus is huge.

10
Kings wood


         7V
————————————
You can only gain this with
Coin tokens.
————————————
Setup: if plaza is not One of
The kingdom supply piles add
It as an eleventh kingdom
Supply pile.
$4 Victory

Requiring another specific card is really awkward... what if people want to play with this card but don't have Plaza? But as a purely fan card; that's fine if you really want. But would probably be much better to have it generate coin tokens of its own.

The wording of the top needs work... I assume that what you mean is that any spent on it must have been gotten through spending coin tokens. But as worded, it implies that you use coin tokens to gain cards, which isn't correct. To have the effect you want, you would need some weird/awkward wording that probably just can't work.

11
Property deed

    4V

When another player buys a
Victory card, you may reveal
This and gain a card costing
Up to 6$.
0* Victory-Reaction-Prize

As a Prize, do you intend for it to just be mixed with the other Prizes, to be gained by Tournament?

Also has the unlimited reaction issue. If you discard it rather than reveal it, it might be fine.

12
Firth guild

+ 2$
Each other player reveals their
Hand. If an attack card is
Revealed, then they discard one
Attack card.
————————————————
When a attack card is played not
During your turn, you may reveal
This and take a coin token.
$3 Action-Attack-Reaction


A couple problems...

- Nothing stops you from revealing this repeatedly when an attack is played and taking unlimited coin tokens.
- It is horribly weak if there are no attacks (or no attacks worth getting) on the board. Just a worse Silver.
- The top part is super punishing against attacks, to the point that people probably just won't buy attacks if this is available. Which makes this pointless to have, because no one will buy attacks. And even if people do buy attacks, the reaction is largely pointless because the top part already stops players from playing their attacks.

13
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 13, 2018, 11:50:09 pm »
in most games, if a player who was losing simply gave up and left, it may be considered rude. People do it in Online Dominion all the time, but it doesn't generally happen in IRL Dominion
As a data point, BGG indicates I've walked away from only 2 of the last 1,000 games I've played IRL. A few more were abandoned by universal consent, but I think people I play with know my walking away has a heck of a lot more to do with how tediously stagnant the game is than whether or not I'm winning.

Maybe those two occasions seemed rude, but when things get that bad I'll take the hit. It's not like I shipped someone a bobcat instead of an office chair, or anything...

Yeah I mean context is going to matter a lot; it's certainly not universally rude.

I remember a 3 player game of Terra Mystica at a convention; a long game that started pretty late at night. We all felt like we were about balanced. Until round 5 (out of 6), when one player did several huge actions in a row; suddenly gaining huge amounts of points on myself and the other player. It was quite clear to all of us that the player had won; neither of us other 2 had any means of gaining nearly as many points; even if the third player scored absolutely nothing in round 6. We all looked at each other and just said "so, do we want/need to still play round 6?" And we all agreed that it was late; we'd had our fun; and the winner was clear. So we just didn't play round 6.

On the other hand, there was a game of Dominion I talked about a while ago here. It did seem at least a bit rude that the other 2 players just decided to stop playing in the middle of the game; though at the same time I can sympathize with their position; that they simply weren't having fun just watching me play out my engine each turn, knowing that they would lose eventually.

14
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 13, 2018, 02:39:55 pm »
Resignation is officially allowed in chess as well (and, in fact, is commoner than checkmate - I had eight decisive games in my last tournament, with seven ending by resignation and one by checkmate).

Yup. Of course one big difference is that Chess doesn't need to worry about the proper way to continue a game after a player resigns. But I think that the commonality between Chess and MTG there is the seriousness of the game; both are played in money-making tournaments.

15
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 13, 2018, 12:27:49 pm »
Similarly, the rules only say that the player with the most VP wins (or tied with fewer turns, or tied). Does that mean there is no 'official' second place?

Almost no games have official rules for second place; tournament organizers will often add such rules to their tournament rules for the purposes if caring about such things.

For games where the winner is the player with the most points, players generally declare second place based on having the second-most points. For games that are more race-style, second place is generally declared by the player who would have finished the race next if the game continued (often that is obvious to tell; sometimes it isn't).

This doesn't work quite as well in Dominion; because of how points scale so non-linearly... player B may have fewer points than player C when player A ends the game and wins; but player B may have been 1 turn away from popping off his megaturn and gaining all the Provinces, while player C had no chance of ever winning. It would seem weird to declare player C the second-place winner in that case. Dominion can also be seen as a race-style game (first player to achieve the goal of ending the game while having the most points); and in that case player B could legitimately declare second place based on the fact that he would have been next in line to win if player A hadn't.

The point is that there's no official second place in almost any game; and in Dominion specifically there's no a great way to house-rule a determination of second place.

16
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 13, 2018, 10:35:10 am »
The bit about being allowed to resign at any time is in the regular rules, not the tournament rules.
Really?

Boggle. I wonder why. I mean, outside of a tournament setting where sanctions might be applied, I'd like to see you try to stop me walking away from any game I want to.

Exactly. It's a rule that's implicitly written in every rulebook for every game, but MTG felt the need to spell it out. I suppose you could say it changes the reasonable expectations of a game... in most games, if a player who was losing simply gave up and left, it may be considered rude. People do it in Online Dominion all the time, but it doesn't generally happen in IRL Dominion.

In a 3 or more player game, leaving in the middle of the game would generally just be unfair to the other players; having their game ruined because they can't necessarily complete it. MTG provides specific rules about the right way to handle that situation, and makes it so that a player quitting in the middle isn't considered rude or harmful to the game.

*Edit* After more thinking about it, I do think the rule is meaningful, even in a 2 player game. In other games, "resigning" is not allowed. Walking away from the table and preventing the game from ever ending properly is. So if you walk away in the middle of a game of Dominion, there's no rule that says that you lost that game. Most people will reasonably agree that you did in fact lose, but it will depend on the circumstances. The game never finished, you can't really say who it is that won the game. In Dominion Online, they reasonably use a house-rule that says that when a player leaves the game, they lose that game. But MTG makes it so that leaving the game is an in-game action you are allowed to take, with an in-game rule for how to deal with it (you lose the game. If there is still more than 1 player left, the game continues).

17
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Royal Seal fix
« on: July 12, 2018, 03:20:00 pm »
I'm also unsure why "next clean-up" is preferable to doing it immediately.


If you trashed it immediately, it wouldn't give you any top-decking, because it wouldn't be in play when you bought any cards.

The solution would be to give it the Travelling Fair wording of "when you gain a card this turn", rather than "while this is in play". Then you can have it be trashed immediately.

18
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 12, 2018, 03:16:48 pm »
Though MTG actually does have ridiculously specific rules to allow things such as resigning at any time (even if your decisions are being controlled by an opponent or when you do not have priority to act).
There's a difference between the level of precision needed in the rules for tournament play and the bog-standard rulebook.

Ah, but MTG has a separate set of tournament rules on top of the regular rulebook. The bit about being allowed to resign at any time is in the regular rules, not the tournament rules.

19
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 12, 2018, 11:50:57 am »
There are also a bunch of unwritten rules common to most games. Some day, a pedant might codify them.

For example, you can't change position around the table during the game. You can't enter or leave the game while it is in progress. Players sit in an identifiable order around the table - there's not a player sitting in the hole in the middle of an O-shaped table, sitting under the table, hanging from the chandelier or whatever. When you shuffle cards, you try to mix them into a random order you neither choose nor know. And so on.

Though MTG actually does have ridiculously specific rules to allow things such as resigning at any time (even if your decisions are being controlled by an opponent or when you do not have priority to act).

20
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 12, 2018, 10:44:30 am »
Not clear what you mean.

There are cases where the written rules are more general, and as such there is a specific thing that you are allowed to do, which could be considered a rule, even though it isn't mentioned in the rulebook. For example, I don't think anything in the rulebook tells you that if your opponent plays a Militia, you are allowed to discard a Victory card instead of a card that you want to use on your turn. Instead, the rules just tell you that you have to discard cards in general (via the rule that says that you do what the cards tell you to do when played).

I don't think this is a good example.  Victory cards are still cards, which is what Militia tells you to discard.


That was my whole point though. It might not be a good example of what the OP means (because I'm not sure what he means), but it's definitely a good example of what I meant. The rules don't need to tell you that you can discard victory cards, because they tell you that you discard cards. You infer the specific from the general.

21
Rules Questions / Re: "no other rule is a Dominion rule"
« on: July 12, 2018, 09:12:07 am »
Not clear what you mean.

There are cases where the written rules are more general, and as such there is a specific thing that you are allowed to do, which could be considered a rule, even though it isn't mentioned in the rulebook. For example, I don't think anything in the rulebook tells you that if your opponent plays a Militia, you are allowed to discard a Victory card instead of a card that you want to use on your turn. Instead, the rules just tell you that you have to discard cards in general (via the rule that says that you do what the cards tell you to do when played).

22
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Ruined cards
« on: July 11, 2018, 04:11:54 pm »
Ruined Watchtower (Reaction - Ruins)
Whenever you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to put the gained card into your discard pile.

Combos well with Nomad Camp. And good defense against Sea Hag.

23
Rules Questions / Re: Duplicate + spirits
« on: July 09, 2018, 10:29:24 pm »
Would be cool if the note changed to something like: “You May... call a Duplicate (you won’t gain anything)” to make clear what’s happening here, or a line in the log saying “Gaining X Failed (Not In Supply)”.

I think the latter option is best.

I'd rather have the log better explain what happened according to the rules than start down the road of warning players of unintended consequences.

Why?

Well, if you go with the former option, you have to decide on a case-by-case basis when to warn a player and when to not. Most people might agree that calling a Duplicate for no gain is worth warning a player, but there are so many other things where it might not be as obvious.

24
Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions
« on: July 08, 2018, 07:03:02 pm »
If you Kings Court a Mining Village and trash it the first time it is played, will you still get to play the Mining Village 2 more times?
Yes. A card does not need to be in play for it to be replayed with a card like King's Court.

But worth noting that it will stay in the trash for the second and third play; and you will not be able to trash it again for more coin.

25
Whether Dominion would be better or worse if it had perfect tracking is not the point. That’s a completely opinion-based personal preference. But as an implementation of a game that doesn’t have perfect tracking; the online implementation is worse at implementing that game for having it.

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