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Messages - ThetaSigma12

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#8 Greed: If you're overdrawing, that's an extra coin of payload that could help you hit a needed price point.

Or just some extra trash fodder to get you that extra Altar play.

Assuming you mean trashing a Rats from your hand with a Raze, doesn't that still leave you with a 5 card hand? It seems more like a stronger Sage than a stronger Hunting Party.

Rats gives you +1 Card when you trash it, on top of looking at the top four cards and drawing one.

While Experiment, Magpie, Rats and Peddler have unique variants of their mechanics, I wouldn't say any of them have unique mechanics.

Well, it just goes back to the question of what constitutes a unique mechanic. Magpie and Rats, it's pretty easy to say that they're just twists on the old "gain X" mechanic. But the "Return to the Supply" bit of Experiment and Encampment, that seems like something new to me.

It really depends on what you consider a separate "mechanic". I agree, though, that you'd probably need Black Market (itself a unique mechanic).

Well, what mechanics don't work from the black market?
  • Travellers can't be exchanged, same with Vampire/Bat.
  • Gathering cards don't have supply piles to use.
  • Cards like Experiment can't return themselves to the supply.
  • Split, Mixed, or Rats piles don't really utilise their special mechanics.
  • Magpie and Rats can't gain themselves.
  • Edit: Peddler, can't reduce its own cost, unless you're also using Capitalism.
Still, you can probably put these in as the rest of the kingdom cards, but perhaps there are more that don't work?

Villager Coffer (if the "that" refers to the reaction; the Villager only makes the Patron non-terminal).

Whoops, Silver that can provide a Villager, not a reaction that can provide a Villager, that was unclear. And the Villager can do more than make Patron non-terminal. If you don't have any more actions you can keep the Villager and use it as engine grease, it can be pretty significant.

Patron is ... strictly* better than Silver at .
Maybe I overlooked the caveat the asterisk seems to be pointing to, but: Silver can't be drawn dead.
There wasn't a caveat that was written out, but I added the asterisk as a shorthand to denote the slew of edge cases where Patron is better than Silver. Ignoring types and drawing dead, Patron is just a Silver with a reaction that can provide a Villager.

I probably missed this discussion earlier; but are first-edition cards left out of the rankings? I would assume so, otherwise where is Thief?

I disagree with that; just because a card isn't in the second printing of Dominion doesn't make it any less an official and real Dominion card.

Yes, they are left out. I think there's a multitude of good reasons:

1) You can no longer purchase them (excluding used versions). New players won't be playing with them. They are still "real" and "official" Dominion cards but they've been phased out from the product line.

2) They aren't available online. That's where most people play Dominion nowadays and it would be weird to rank them when most people don't use them (stash notwithstanding).

3) They're all crap anyway, why bother spending time and effort just to throw them on the bottom.

#95 ▼1 Bureaucrat (Base Set) Weighted Average: 6.37% / Unweighted Average: 8.74% / Median: 2.13% / Standard Deviation: 17.62%

The new weakest card, Bureaucrat is a weak attack paired with silver gaining. There are a few decks where it is good to mediocre, but in the majority of engines, the card serves no viable purpose.
#94 ▲1 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 6.44% / Unweighted Average: 11.52%  / Median: 2.13% / Standard Deviation: 21.64%

Coming out of last place is Pirate Ship, now at second to last. It is a powerful combo with Capitalism (and Ambassador) and no doubt that has affected its rise. There seems to be a good deal of disagreement on how much that combo should factor into its ranking, however.
#93 ▼1 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.75% / Unweighted Average: 10.59% / Median: 4.26% / Standard Deviation: 19.52%

Noble Brigand is weak, suffering from an inability to trash more exotic treasures and only giving a terminal +. As with Bureaucrat and Pirate Ship, it struggles in the modern meta of less treasure-heavy decks.
#92 ▲1 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 8.25% / Unweighted Average: 12.32% / Median: 6.38% / Standard Deviation: 19.52%

Navigator suffers from lack of flexibility in addition to being a boring terminal Silver. However, its cycling can be valuable early game and sometimes it makes a good opener.
#91 ▼1 Ritual (Empires) Weighted Average: 9.98% / Unweighted Average: 13.38% / Median: 8.51% / Standard Deviation: 16.39%

After a massive drop last year, Ritual continues to nudge downward. Other than Golds, there aren't a lot of good cards to trash that will make a decent profit. And since it gives you a curse, it doesn't actually thin your deck at all and swapping a valuable card for a curse can be a tough pill to swallow for some decks.
#90 ▼2 Taxman (Guilds) Weighted Average: 11.38% / Unweighted Average: 16.37%  / Median: 8.51% / Standard Deviation: 21.14%

Taxman suffers from money-centric syndrome and a weak on-play bonus.
#89 ▲2 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.04% / Unweighted Average: 16.89%  / Median: 11.11% / Standard Deviation: 19%

Treasure Map is very good to add a bunch of payload at once, and if you can draw your deck you're in a very good position to pop these. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this rose again in the future.
#88 ▲1 Feodum (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 14.68% / Unweighted Average: 21.56%  / Median: 9.57% / Standard Deviation: 26.93%

Alt-VP is always underrated, and Feodum this low seems like a mistake. Still, a lot of times decks with Silver floods will be out preformed by better engines.
#87 ▼2 Rocks (Empires) Weighted Average: 15.23% / Unweighted Average: 17.48%  / Median: 10.64% / Standard Deviation: 20.77%

Rocks rarely gets uncovered. And when it does, it rarely matters, although total of trash fodder can be nice if there is good TfB available.
#86 ▼3 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.36% / Unweighted Average: 19.85%  / Median: 11.7% / Standard Deviation: 21.29%

Again the loss for Alt-VP seems unwarranted, Silk Roads and Duchies can be a viable pathway to defeating strain province drains.
#85 =0 Death Cart (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 16.64% / Unweighted Average: 24.31%  / Median: 12.77% / Standard Deviation: 24.56%

Death Cart provides a very hefty + coin spike, but the cost of adding 2 junk cards to your deck is very high. Although, the ability to quickly drain multiple Supply piles can't be overlooked.
#84 =0 Noman Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 17.71% / Unweighted Average: 20.02%  / Median: 17.02% / Standard Deviation: 14.44%

Nomad Camp is a pretty straightforward card. As +Buy goes it's pretty weak, but being +Buy there are plenty of boards where you have to pick one up.
#83 ▲4 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 19.35% / Unweighted Average: 22.69%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 18.84%

Talisman gains an impressive 4 ranks. Ever since 2nd Editions, there have been a greater amount of powerful and spammable $4 cards, and adding multiple to your deck at once is nice.
#82 ▼3 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 21.49% / Unweighted Average: 24.75%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 18.23%

Island is weak trashing, and it's main benefit is being able to pseudo-trash Provinces and other high-point Victory cards. Sometimes you get it for the 2, but usually I just see them picked up by Workshops to add some side benefits to a deck.
#81 ▼3 Gardens (Base Set) Weighted Average: 21.92% / Unweighted Average: 25.56%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 20.96%

I would attribute Garden's drop to the recent introduction of very many very powerful trashers, starting with Donate, and recently Goat and Cathedral. It's still good with Beggar, but it can't beat engines that are able to get on their feet incredibly fast.
#80 ▲2 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.2% / Unweighted Average: 27.99%  / Median: 18.09% / Standard Deviation: 23.74%

If you need a crap ton of Silvers, look no further than Trader. If you don't, then, well, you'll probably never pick up this card.
#79 ▲1 Bard (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 22.24% / Unweighted Average: 24.57%  / Median: 19.15% / Standard Deviation: 17.05%

Bard is a powerful card most of the time, but it's unpredictability severely hampers its power. Getting Forest's, Field's, Flame's, or Eath's gifts can all do wonders, but it feels awful when you pop open the River's gift on a crucial turn.
#78 Exploration (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 22.28% / Unweighted Average: 23.21%  / Median: 16.3% / Standard Deviation: 17.69%

The first Renaissance card on this list, Exploration comes in at a respectable but disappointing place #78. Since it's a project it never really hurts to pick it up, but it doesn't trigger very often. If you're dudding very frequently, then this isn't going to save you. The best case for this is other Events(s) that you'll be buying multiple times. With Mission in particular, it can really get the tokens flowing in.
#77 ▲3 Rats (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 22.67% / Unweighted Average: 25.2%  / Median: 18.09% / Standard Deviation: 18.17%

Rats gains 3 spaces, possibly due to the recent addition of Dismantle, Recruiter, and Research, both TfB cards. If you don't let them get out of control then you can get plenty of Cards, , Villagers, Gains, or what have you out of them.
#76 ▼7 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 25.34% / Unweighted Average: 25.34%  / Median: 25.53% / Standard Deviation: 19.46%

Cutpurse drops seven ranks, making him one of tonight's biggest losers. Even if your opponent has copper around, losing one isn't going to ruin their turn, especially after the first few shuffles.
#75 ▲1 Miser (Adventures) Weighted Average: 25.99% / Unweighted Average: 29.63%  / Median: 24.47% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Miser takes too long to get anywhere. It does trash your copper instead of your opponent's, so it's at least significantly better than Pirate Ship.
#74 =0 Messenger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 27.93% / Unweighted Average: 28.34%  / Median: 26.6% / Standard Deviation: 16.69%

Messenger gives out cards to everyone, and who doesn't love that. Generally speaking, it's just a good way to empty piles because there aren't a lot of cases where you significantly want one card more than your opponent does. And because you probably forgot, it only triggers if it's the first buy of the turn.
#73 ▼2 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 29.02% / Unweighted Average: 33.76%  / Median: 31.91% / Standard Deviation: 17.29%

Discard for benefit is a rare niche, but maybe it's what you need to get those Cursed Villages drawing up to par.
#72 ▲1 Salt the Earth (Empires) Weighted Average: 31.2% / Unweighted Average: 28.57%  / Median: 23.4% / Standard Deviation: 18.68%

Salt the Earth actually has a higher weighted average, an irregularity for cards so far down on this list. Salt the Earth is a weird card that rarely directly does anything but will always change the way the game is played out. Don't leave that last province exposed if you're not in a good position.
#71 ▼3 Secret Passage (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 31.72% / Unweighted Average: 33.13%  / Median: 30.85% / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Secret Passage is technically a cantrip, but powerful combos with it are few and far between. At best, it's some form of gimped Laboratory with Mystic or Wishing Well.
#70 Dismantle (Promo) Weighted Average: 32.43% / Unweighted Average: 35.27%  / Median: 31.91% / Standard Deviation: 17.69%

At its first outing, Dismantle gets ranked #70, which is surprising to me. I see it get picked up pretty often and it's a really easy way to gain a lot of Golds. Late game, you can trash the Golds and get a for your troubles.
#69 ▲2 Pilgrimage (Adventures) Weighted Average: 32.54% / Unweighted Average: 32.42%  / Median: 26.6% / Standard Deviation: 21.23%

Pilgrimage costs 2 buys, which is a big turn off, especially without +Buy. But even without expensive cards in play it can be a good investment just to pick up so many cards at once.
#68 ▲6 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 32.7% / Unweighted Average: 34.38%  / Median: 30.85% / Standard Deviation: 19.21%

Baron gains an impressive 6 ranks. I guess people like how much money it gives? I'm surprised by its rise.
#67 ▼1 Armory (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 33.71% / Unweighted Average: 32.48%  / Median: 29.79% / Standard Deviation: 18.47%

Armoury is a workshop variant. The top-decking is nice, but it has a bit more competition at than its predecessor at . And depending on what you're gaining, the topdecking can be a drawback.
#66 ▲3 Scavenger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 34.01% / Unweighted Average: 37.55%  / Median: 28.72% / Standard Deviation: 22.11%

Combos with Stash. We miss you Stash.
#65 ▼3 Poacher (Base Set) Weighted Average: 36.17% / Unweighted Average: 34.1%  / Median: 32.98% / Standard Deviation: 13.54%

Poacher drops three ranks. It would be a fine card without the penalty, but with it Poacher is significantly weaker. If one pile empties than it's an expensive Oasis, and if two are empty it's a really bad Mill.
#64 ▼5 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.42% / Unweighted Average: 42.46%  / Median: 36.17% / Standard Deviation: 20.06%

Monument is significantly higher ranked by worse players. The hard part for Monument is getting in enough plays that the s make a difference.
#63 Silos (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 38.06% / Unweighted Average: 36.6%  / Median: 35.11% / Standard Deviation: 19.76%

Silos is the next Renaissance card. If there's no Copper trashing then it's a must-buy, with Copper trashing it's very skippable. I don't think there's much strategical nuance in this Project. You either get it early or you don't get it at all. But maybe powerful Silos/trasher open strategies will be developed to use the early cycling boost?
#62 ▲1 Duplicate (Adventures) Weighted Average: 39.09% / Unweighted Average: 42.73%  / Median: 39.06% / Standard Deviation: 18.11%

Duplicate is nice, but it's terminal. Unless you're planning a megaturn with Bridge it doesn't usually shine.
#61 ▲1 Skulk (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 39.69% / Unweighted Average: 42.21%  / Median: 34.78% / Standard Deviation: 20.96%

Skulk I think is underrated. Gaining a free Gold is very nice with Encampment, Legionary, and TfB. Also, it's +Buy, and sometimes the attack does something important. Don't sleep on this one.
#60 Fair (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 39.92% / Unweighted Average: 41.66%  / Median: 40.43% / Standard Deviation: 17.94%

Seems like a fair ranking to me. Again, I don't see much strategical nuance in this card.
#59 Flag Bearer (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 40.47% / Unweighted Average: 48.03%  / Median: 39.36% / Standard Deviation: 23.51%

A very controversial card, Flag Bearer has an 8% lower weighted average and 24% standard deviation. Many people see this as a trap card, and are very split on when, if ever, it's the right move to be the first to buy one.
#58 ▼4 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 45.8% / Unweighted Average: 48.03%  / Median: 45.74% / Standard Deviation: 17.92%

Villages are nice, moving on.
#57 Patron (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 45.86% / Unweighted Average: 45.39%  / Median: 41.49% / Standard Deviation: 17.27%

Patron is another newcomer. It's strictly* better than Silver at . Major combos include: Hunting Party, City Quarter, Seer, and, of course, Black Market.
#56 ▼2 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 46.23% / Unweighted Average: 51.55%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 26.48%

The highest standard deviation on the list, Bishop is a controversial card, to say the least. It's hard to figure out how much the trashing for your opponent helps them. When does that make it not worth it?
#55 ▲6 Necromancer (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 46.6% / Unweighted Average: 45.81%  / Median: 44.68% / Standard Deviation: 21.12%

Zombie Apprentice is honestly a really good card, and the Necromancer army is very powerful and flexible.
#54 ▼8 Diplomat (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.26% / Unweighted Average: 45.34%  / Median: 43.62% / Standard Deviation: 19.25%

Apparently Diplomat is much harder to activate than previously thought. Lost cities at 4 are nice, but with all the hoops you have to jump through it just doesn't work a decent amount of the time.
#53 ▲3 Remodel (Base Set) Weighted Average: 50.37% / Unweighted Average: 49.85%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Remodel is a tad underrated, it should be in the top half. The pile control is impressive.
#52 ▼8 Mill (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 50.78% / Unweighted Average: 49.16%  / Median: 46.81% / Standard Deviation: 18.67%

Another large drop in Intrigue, this time for Mill. Apparently, it's hard to make it produce the maximal amount of gold for the maximal amount of people.
#51 ▲5 Ranger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 51.1% / Unweighted Average: 49.15%  / Median: 47.87% / Standard Deviation: 16.43%

Just remember, always leave your token face down so it's easier to kick off your next turn.
#50 Research (Renaissance) Weighted Average: 52.3% / Unweighted Average: 52.47%  / Median: 53.19% / Standard Deviation: 19.17%

Research is a weak trasher, deserving of it's place in the middle. I expect it to drop a bit in future years.
#49 ▲1 Conclave (Nocturne) Weighted Average: 52.46% / Unweighted Average: 53.96%  / Median: 51.06% / Standard Deviation: 16.59%

Conclave is a tricky village, but it provides a decent amount of .
#48 =0 Engineer (Empires) Weighted Average: 52.85% / Unweighted Average: 51.21%  / Median: 51.06% / Standard Deviation: 20.42%

Engineer's best ability is being able to trash itself once it's worn out its welcome. Also, you can squeak it in on the 4/3.

Menagerie has a bit of a exponential effect, in that the first couple don’t do much. However, as more Menageries are added, they start drawing consistently and often.

What is this supposed to mean? How does adding more and more menageries to a deck make them more likely to activate (or even exponentially more likely to activate)? I understand that having a second and a third can help activate since it's another unique, but you specifically said it's after the first couple. Four to five Menageries hardly seems like a "bit of an exponential effect", unless I'm not understanding your meaning here.

Also, I prefer writeups with more statstics and less personal opinion, but then again, this is just my personal opinion.

I agree, but it's just a difference in writing styles. Of course Seprix would have to put in his personal Hot Takes™, and I'm sure when Aku does his list he'll have plenty of references to Markus' stats. And when I do my list tomorrow, you can be assured that I will avoid as many Hot Takes™ as I can because all of mine are crap.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: February 09, 2019, 10:03:50 am »
Buying at no cost would be simply gaining.

I think the intent is to trigger on-buy effects, such as the Trashing token which is on-buy not on-gain. However, I find it a very clunky workaround.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: February 01, 2019, 08:20:32 pm »

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mistakes We're still making in 2019
« on: January 30, 2019, 11:56:08 am »
I appreciate the fact that the only possible placings are "decent player" "better than average player" and "highly skilled player", but I question how accurate of a division that is.

Oh yes please ban Harvest. It has come so far nowadays that i dont even have to ask about banning it. we just both mutually agree not to pick it up.

I second this, it's about time Donald did something about the Harvest + Patron meta.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best cards for Black Market Pile cards
« on: January 22, 2019, 06:32:05 pm »
then why peddler?

Peddler is only reduced during the Buy phase, so (generally) it will cost during your Action phase, a steep price to pay for a Peddler.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« on: January 15, 2019, 07:43:37 am »
*Looks at Dark Ages*
*Rebuild is ranked #22*


Notice that it was 9 votes out of 23. There were no runoffs in thunderdominion. Most of the other votes were split between Graverobber (8) and Armory (6) with Marauder and squire having one vote each, so Rebuild eeked out with 9 votes and lost. All you need is Tracer or Seprix to be on a sudden hate streak and some card gets shoved at the bottom by a narrow margin. It's cool to hate on rebuild now, get with the times Asper.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 09, 2019, 11:08:03 am »
I don't think I should include too many or too detailed corner cases.
Trouble is, I'm one of the people friends go to if someone buys Capitalism, Inherits Band of Misfits, plays an Estate as a Fortress then buys Mint. They expect me to know what will happen and frankly, I'm losing the plot.

Nothing will happen, Capitalism only affects actions that give +, of which Band and Fortress are neither.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Are promos worth it?
« on: January 04, 2019, 05:25:11 pm »
Depends on the Promo. I'd say at least Black Market is worth it, and probably pass on at least Walled Village and Envoy.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: January 04, 2019, 03:36:33 pm »
Homage to the top dominion player we love but don't deserve:

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: January 02, 2019, 09:36:45 am »
Damn Town
I think you might mean "Dam town"?
I am not a native speaker (german) but i looked here:

„damn” seems to be right for me but if it isn't common english i can use f.i. „cursed”.

Ah, you probably meant "Damned Town", like "Cursed Town". Damned is the adjectival form of damn. Damn is often times considered profanity within the English language. I highly doubt "damn" or "damned" would make it onto any official dominion card at any point.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: January 02, 2019, 08:59:02 am »
Damn Town

I think you might mean "Dam town"?

Dominion FAQ / Re: What counts as an attack?
« on: January 01, 2019, 06:51:53 pm »
What if you have a library where you get more cards if you didn't draw it. It may be an action which library could have skipped

If you're playing Library against an opponent playing Council Room, you brought the attack upon yourself.

Dominion FAQ / Re: What counts as an attack?
« on: December 30, 2018, 10:38:58 pm »
...and now I'm suddenly wondering why Council Room's draw and Embassy's Silver gain aren't optional.

Simplicity. There's no reason in adding "may" on Council room when 99% of the time you're going to want that card.

General Discussion / Re: Movies: Any movie buffs?
« on: December 25, 2018, 05:06:51 pm »
Just watched Into the spiderverse. It's the most excited I've been about a superhero movie in a long while. If you are even just mildly interested by animation or superhero movies, you should watch it.

It's a very good movie. Like, a really good movie. The only reason I would suggest not watching it is if you hate animation, particularly lots of flashing and moving lights/colours. The credits at the start and final act are a little seizure-inducing at points. Also, I felt like the hip-hop/rap music was overused and overplayed a bit, but that's in line with Miles' character so it's not a very legitimate complaint. The only "problem" I have is that the third act really dragged on. Kingpin and Miles fighting after all the goodbyes felt awkward. The plot in general felt a little thin. Still a really good movie, and I loved the score.

I haven't touched this thread in probably over 2 years now, moved on to other projects.
You should change you're "Blurb" thing then, it references this post

You mean my signature? I mean, it doesn't really need to be changed. I'm still quite proud of my work here, even if there's a couple typos and it's dreadfully outdated, and it's still a good resource for finding new fan cards to play with. Of course, I'm not really taking requests anymore, I should edit that part out, but it hasn't come up yet because the Fan Card Generator is now good enough that it's pretty much eclipsed GIMP in terms of efficiency/accessibility (even if I think that GIMP presents a more polished project).

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