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Messages - Qvist

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:43:07 am »
But that makes the result worse. If I would force a 1-100 rating, people might be overwhelmed and couldn't decide between a 75 and 76 rating, but in the end it isn't a big difference anyway but gives more options. And if people want they could still decide to only vote 0, 33, 67 and 100. Voila, the same as S, A, B and C. In any case. My web app allows to vote for any scale you want. So if you want to vote S, A, B, C you can already (just change to 1-4 of course). If people want to be more specific, they can. But limiting the people in advance and using an abritary scale makes the result worse.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:29:33 am »
I don't get what you are saying. Why is offering less options giving a better result? And how is S, S-, A+, A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C different to a 1-10 rating?
If you are so desperately want tiers, depending on what you want and what DXV said, you can just grab my lists and either divide equally in 4 bins or divide into 0-25%, 25%-50%, 50%-75% and 75%-100% groups. Isn't that exactly what you want? Just a different represantation of the same thing.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 11:19:38 pm »
Oh and I forgot something. I want to say that I agree with DG's comment. Cards like Trading Post or Doctor that are excellent on a 5/2 but get so much worse in upcoming turns are very hard to rank. Also cards like Outpost and to a lesser extent Gladiator or Scavenger where you like rarely want more than 1 are very hard to rank as well even with the tier system. For victory cards you have to define other criteria as well, and so on and so on.

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 11:14:58 pm »
Just a few notes though as not sure if people are aware and then I won't say anything I swear.

You can and could RATE cards in my lists on any scale you want. So basically you can tier the cards like you did, filovirus, in for example 5 tiers on my website by putting in numbers from 1-5, or if you wanted from 1-1000 or whatever. What the app then does, it transforms these values in a normalized way, meaning percentages depending on how many cards got each number. That alleviates the problem of some people vote cards tentatively higher while other rate cards tentatively lower, normalizing both. If people want I can elaborate why I think this is needed. So no matter which of the ways I offer to vote, eventually all cards have a percentage value. So I could just use Adam's poll and run it through my algorithm, basically.

Where do we draw the line, if I exclude "bad" players. Is it level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 of Dominion Online? This is just an arbitrary cutoff. I rather like the approach of weighting each vote depending on the player's level. Low ranked players barely have any influence anyway, but who am I to tell them they are not allowed to vote? But that aside, from the data I have seen, most of the players that take the time to vote on a rating/ranking of Dominion cards, of course are experienced players at the least, meaning this is certainly nothing to worry about. I can guarantee you that the ratings are not affected by "bad" votings. The only thing I have noticed that if the opinion on cards change over a time, the lists are slow to adapt. But that is rather a fault of the people's perception. For many it takes some time to admit that the value of a card changed. Even top players fall into this trap. I remember the Urchin/Urchin opening discussion where even top players at that time didn't realize the power of that opening and Urchin in general. Just to name an example.

Also, to get a bit philosophical. Those lists have the aim to be objective. But what is objective anyway? Let's say a card, is in reality a real power house card, but most players just didn't realize it yet. Of course then this card might be represented undervalued in the list. BUT the list is the status quo of the community's view. So the real strength of a card might not always be reflected by the current opinion of the masses. If you look in the history and other fields of society, like science, the opinion of the masses wasn't always equal to the truth. But for card games like Dominion this isn't so easy to determine as there is such things as a meta. Let's take Sea Hag as an example. It was voted #1 in the $4 list, but now suddenly drops drastically. What would you say is true? Was the card ranked previously incorrectly? Was the meta just wrong and the card was not that good at all? Or was it correctly at #1 for that time given the at that time available expansions? This is very hard to answer in my opinion. It might be a bit of both. But who decides that? We had sites like councilroom.com in the past that helped finding objective answers. But if we look at cards like Sea Hag, Ill-Gotten Gains and Venture, I have a hard time believing that only the addition of expansions changed their value that much. They might have been good back then, but probably not that good as reflected in the rankings. So how do we alleviate that? I can't find a better solution to what I am doing right now. Even if cards are not fully correctly valued, it is still the best representation of the opinion of the masses. I wish we had a site like councilroom.com now where statistical analysis would help ranking the cards better.

P.S: If people think that Adam's list is more correct than mine, don't forget that his list is like 9 months newer. So it is just obvious that especially Empire cards are probably better ranked.

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 01:08:07 pm »

Thanks for responding Qvist. I have watched all your YouTube videos on your 2016 ranking (you never completed the 5-cost or 6+cost cards). Your ranking system does offer a lot of good information. However, a few statistical items arise in your system of ranking. Firstly, the sample size is relatively small to get a truly representation of what the community thinks. With your system is would be tough to get a truly representative rank. Those that take your poll need to be very familiar with every card in the game and make non-arbitrary comparisons. The causal player with less understanding of each card will greatly skew your results. Second, there's bound to be some very high standard deviations for given cards because it is a mix of highly competitive and casual players, which would make too hard to put any credit in their ranking.

That is why the voting is weighted. Higher rated player's votes have a higher weight than lower people's. And if you look at the history of past votings, it is pretty impressive to me how some cards stayed constistent over the time while others (where the meta indeed changed) have adjusted properly. I think the list are a reasonable well approximation at the strength. Having few voters is indeed a problem, but that is just due to the fact that this is Dominion and not Magic: The Gathering or Hearthstone. I can't change the popularity of the game.

If I have a kingdom with Hamlet (ranked 5th for two cost cards), Wishing Well (ranked 26 for three cost cards), and Trader (ranked 54 for four cost cards), and have 4 coins in hand, which would be my best cost to benefit ratio? Hamlet would probably be "A" tier, Wishing Well "B" tier, and Trader "C" tier. Would I want to overpay for Hamlet? Overpay for Wishing Well? Or get a Trader? Obviously it may depend on the kingdom, but Hamlet may be the best option overall. It is tough to make those comparisons with such a stringent ranking system and not knowing where the 2-costers rank according to the higher costing other cards.

A 4 tier system would help alleviate the confusion.

I don't understand how that would be better. The lists are not for telling you what you should buy if you have X coins in hand. You should buy what is best for your deck. If you need a Counting House, come and buy one. There is Chapel, better get all of them if it is the best card in Dominion. It doesn't tell you how many of each card you should get and in which order. That is not the purpose. It's just how impactful and relevant those cards are on the board. I think you are approaching those lists incorrectly.

Btw, I posted the rest of this year's list in the forum and it is on the wiki as well.

6
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 12:12:07 pm »
I can tell you the same thing that I told Adam and many other people. I am not sure why a broader rating/ranking system is better than a more in depth one. You would lose so much info.
Also btw, I allow comparing a $2 card to a $4 card. Many just don't do that as it is both tedious and way less relevant. I have a list for all the cards, I just didn't post it yet because I did got burned out and had another project going on. You could just take all the lists and put 80%+ cards in tier 1, 60-80% cards in tier 2, ... 0-20% in tier 5 and done. That is the big upside of using percentages and doing it the way I do it.

7
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Strategy Blog Returns!
« on: September 19, 2017, 01:51:34 pm »
Oh no, what have I done?

8
Rules Questions / Re: Poacher question
« on: September 17, 2017, 02:51:16 pm »
It is meant usually as a disadvantage. The longer the game goes, the weaker Poacher gets. That is the whole point of the card. If you have green cards to discard anyway, good for you, but you might not. So always be careful not to get too many. Like if you get 9 Poachers, your opponent might just grab the last one to make your 9 Poachers worse.

There are several scenarios where this might even help you though.
1.) Tunnel: You can discard it to gain a Gold
2.) Draw-to-X like Library, Watchtower and Jack of All Trades: These draw dependant on your hand size. So you can discard a bad card to hopefully draw a better card instead.
3.) Menagerie: You can discard duplicate cards to draw more with Menagerie

There might be even more scenarios, these 3 were the obvious ones to me. One thing you can also do is when you have drawn your deck and some good cards are unused like let's say 2 villages. Then you can use Poacher to discard 2 villages and play another card that draws one card to guarantee that you start next turn with one village.

9
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Rejects: Kingdom of Removed Cards
« on: September 15, 2017, 02:01:54 pm »
Chancellor/Silver into a Big Money strategy that gets 1-2 Tributes if you hit $5.

10
While I agree that for new player they should for terminal draw with +3 cards, +2 cards terminal draw engines can be the right thing to do, mostly if both the draw card and the village can easily be gained, e.g. with a Workshop variant, or even only one of them. And of course you need trashing, but that should be obvious. Like for example if the opponent plays a BM variant with an attack, then building a Moat engine is quite a reasonable thing to do as you are save from his attack AND can attack him every turn with this specific attack as well.

11
Other Games / Re: Through the Ages online
« on: September 14, 2017, 07:47:04 pm »
I'm thinking about it

12
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Strategy Blog Returns!
« on: September 14, 2017, 03:47:21 pm »
Inb4 someone argues they are called villages and not splitters.

13
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Asper's Cards
« on: September 13, 2017, 11:51:17 pm »
There are more. Spice Merchant, Sentry and Appentice notably, also Mercenary and Sacrifice, to lesser extent Amulet where you likely trash at the start of a turn and then with your other Amulet again as you will likely want to draw in between.

14
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Asper's Cards
« on: September 13, 2017, 11:09:18 pm »
Do you put the -1 Card token there immediately and can it trigger more than once a turn? If yes, then this is pretty bad with let's say Rats or Upgrade as they remove the token and trigger again and over and over. Then I would suggest to either limit to once a turn or just let you put the -1 Card Token at the End of your Buy or the Start of your Cleanup Phase.

17
Dominion Articles / Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« on: September 10, 2017, 05:09:47 am »
Very handy summary. I'm pretty sure a few things could get added, like Mission+Outpost+Possession cases or Possession stuff in general which always confuses me.
Other suggestions: Tokens on Travellers, Throne Room variants on Durations, Black Market specialties (Travellers, Encampment, Young Witch, etc), Summon edge cases (Border Village, Death Cart) or when two cards want to go to different spots (Transmogrify into Nomad Camp, Armory a Villa)

Also I would add: "If you play Capital + 4 other Treasures that give at least $7, you can buy Mandarin + Province every turn until the Provinces or Mandarins run out." which matters especially in 3p games or if the opponent tries to deny.

18
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Confessions
« on: September 10, 2017, 02:11:49 am »
Missed opportunity of confession bear meme.


19
General Discussion / Re: Movies: Any movie buffs?
« on: September 09, 2017, 09:33:23 pm »
In Germany, the "last" in the title is plural, sounds like bad news for you.

20
I don't think I tend to confuse cards that often.
But what might be worse, I often talk about a card while recording so much that I thought I already bought it, later wondering why it isn't in my deck.

21
Tournaments and Events / Re: World Cup 2018 Interest Thread & Discussion
« on: September 06, 2017, 12:24:27 pm »
I might be interested to play as this would mean I won't lose 0-6 against drsteelhammer again.

22
Dominion League / Re: Season 23 - Results
« on: September 05, 2017, 05:08:46 pm »
Qvist - Bryan 0-6
I will be back next season.

23
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles
« on: September 03, 2017, 11:45:39 pm »
I think he means to seaway earlier and then buy Villa in that turn in question and play it.

24
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Banning 5 Cards
« on: September 03, 2017, 03:59:49 pm »
It's about banning the union of the 5 most disliked f.ds puns from the forum.

25
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition
« on: August 29, 2017, 04:30:51 pm »
Agreed

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