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Messages - Doom_Shark

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1
Opened Lurker to trash a Flag Bearer early on, and then kept trashing Rats with it because I had everything else that I needed already.

2
Dominion Articles / Re: Poor House + Capitalism
« on: April 12, 2020, 01:23:52 am »
The Capitalism Project functions as an easy way to ensure your Poor Houses have maximized their potential.

The only thing you have to do with this after you've activated the Capitalism Project is play your Poor Houses after you've played any and all other treasures you have in hand that turn.

Yes, but: Each Poor House also becomes a treasure, so if you have more than one in the same hand, you're going to have to lose money on at least one of them.

3
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: April 11, 2020, 11:01:58 am »


Suggestion for wording simplification:
Play a non-Command card costing up to $4 from the Supply.

that doesn't gain the card tho and is only worth like.. $5.

It would put the card into your play area though, which would then presumably get discarded along with everything else and end up in your deck. The only difference is the alternate wording doesn't trigger when-gain effects

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: April 10, 2020, 01:54:16 pm »
This might be a dumb question, but why do kingdom treasures with on play effects say "When you play this" i.e. Venture?
I wish they didn't. At the time - Prosperity - it felt like, people would need this clarified. I still may possibly drop that someday.

Is there a reason you didn't change it with the second editions?

5
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« on: April 07, 2020, 01:17:35 am »
I think your concept is interesting. The alternate back is a good solution to the mandatory play, though I think the wording on your rules needs a little work. Maybe something like "At the start of each of your turns, as well as directly after resolving a card during your turn, if you have at least one Tool in your hand, play it." Some of your cards need some work. Here are my thoughts, going card-by-card:

Armor is probably alright, most of the time it will be a Junk Dealer without the extra .

Axe is interesting; it's a very risky card to put in your deck, but barring 3-piles, the worst it can do is discard the top card of your deck and cost you a card in your hand. That's a pretty low floor though, since in that case you may as well have a Ruined Village for the same effect it has on your turn. Granted, it will usually be at least somewhat better than that, but man, it'll suck hitting your green cards in the end game.

Bag of Holding as a cantrip workshop is probably fine.

Bow and Arrow really sounds like it should be an attack of some kind. Other than that, it's pricing is awkward. Better than Harbinger in most cases, but strictly worse than Mountain Village. I think for this card I'd go with , but again, it's kind of awkward.

Compass is essentially a mandatory Guide. The issue here is that while Guide gets saved for when you need it, Compass could just as easily read "+1 Card, discard the top 4 cards of your deck," and have the same basic effect on your hand and deck. This is one where being mandatory really hurts its attractiveness so much more than the other Tools. The only place I can really see using it is in some kind of Tunnel or Village Green scenario, and even then, Guide would be so many leagues better than this for only more.

Moccasins is really unattractive to me. The other tools have the benefit of being nonterminal, so you're usually not too upset to be forced to play one you didn't totally want to. This just sucks. Like, you could make a cute little engine by itself, but your payload better be basic treasures because that's the only way you're going to be able to buy anything. It's a very self-synergistic card, but unlike Sauna/Avanto, you won't have any extra actions to play anything else, and any villages you manage to play are wasted by the chain of Moccasins. Sauna/Avanto chains also have built-in trashing, while Moccasins are going to choke really hard, really quickly. On a flavor note, I'd probably call the card Hammer or Anvil, to relate to the precedent set by Smithy and Royal Blacksmith.

Rations' mandatory village thing is cute, especially since you can do it retroactively, like CotR or villagers. I don't understand the point of that last line of text though: how the hell are you playing this during your buy phase? There are only a couple ways that I can see that happening: 1) you have your +1 Card token on the Gladiator/Fortune, Encampment/Plunder, or Catapult/Rocks pile, and you play the treasure from that pile, or 2) Capitalism shenanigans. Neither of those are particularly likely to come up, especially since the first requires cards from 2 different expansions. I'd drop that rider, and probably reduce the cost to depending on how powerful it ends up being.

Spellbook needs a few things changed, not conceptually or power-wise, but for rules issues. First, it should have the Command type. Second, should specify non-command. Third, you probably also want to say non-victory and non-curse to avoid the "What happens if I use Spellbook to play an Estate or a Curse" inevitable question, unless you really want to be able to play Humble Castle and Island, in which case specifically call out Actions, Treasures, and Tools.

Sword is for a strictly worse Warehouse. Making it "just a lab" is probably not a bad thing and I doubt it would be worth . Sure, you can play it when you have no actions, but then you can't play any actions you draw, and when you have actions left, you don't get to choose when to play it. I think the tradeoffs make it an adequate at just +2 Cards, but perhaps not the most exciting. But they can't all be the most exciting lab variant ever. This is also a card that sounds like it should be an attack, but that's just flavor stuff.

Telescope is hard to judge power-level wise. The effect is interesting enough. I'd probably test it both at and at just to be sure.

Wagon should probably cost . It's a Market Square without the reaction that you can play when you have no actions left.

Battalion and Broken Sword are really cool. I'd change the wording on Battalion to "You may discard two cards. If you do, each other player..." as "making" a player do something isn't really card terminology that we have, and it sounds awkward to me. I like the concept of putting Tools in an opponent's deck as an attack. This is definitely my favorite of your designs.

Charlatan and Cursed Antique, another Tool "attack." I like that this is a defense against itself; you're given a cursed object by a charlatan, so you hire your own to get rid of it for you, but you're still stuck with the curses you already gained. Minor wording quibble, Charlatan should probably say "At the start of cleanup this turn..."

I hope I didn't sound too harsh, I sometimes have difficulty with that when trying to give constructive criticism. To be clear, I think Tools have merit, the execution could just use some polishing.

6
Dominion General Discussion / Re: RIP IRL
« on: April 03, 2020, 06:06:14 pm »
Jokes on you guys, the only person that ever plays with me irl lives with me.

7
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: March 30, 2020, 04:59:31 pm »
Plague Doctor
Reaction
Cost: $2

Before you draw a card, you may discard this to gain three Curses onto your deck.

This is funny with the chrome extension: both individual words in the name of this get autolinked

8
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ruins and Ways
« on: March 27, 2020, 05:36:56 pm »
(and Ruined Market at least gives you a +buy when not using the Way, so Ruins alone guarantee at least a little bit of +buy)

Fun fact: the only way to truly guarantee the existence of any one ruin is to play 6-player, otherwise there is a very small chance that the random selection of ruins left out all 10 of one of them.

9
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Actually Passable Card Ideas
« on: March 27, 2020, 12:26:24 am »
Here's an actually passable card idea:

Mask - $2
Action
You may pass this to the player on your left.

Funny

10
Dominion General Discussion / Dominion Paradoxes
« on: March 27, 2020, 12:24:57 am »
So, whilst working on the whole "number of possible kingdoms thing," specifically Black Market, I realized that when Young Witch is in the Black Market deck, there is one or card that can never be the bane: Black Market itself. But what if it was? Just for giggles, I mean. Generate a normal kingdom, then add Black Market, put Young Witch in the deck, and say Black Market is the bane. You have a paradox: You can't have a Black Market deck without Black Market, but Black Market wouldn't have been in the kingdom without the Young Witch in the Black Market deck, which wouldn't have been there without Black Market.....

Can anyone think of any other paradoxes in Dominion? Or is this the only one?

11
and still several times the estimated number of atoms in the Universe

I would say that 10^43 is quite a bit more than several. I might say it was several orders of magnitude (I assume that was what you meant).

Yes, it is what I meant, thank you.

12
For a Black Market deck of n cards, where 0<n<351, and neither the deck nor the kingdom includes Druid, Looters, or Young Witch, there are 360!/(n!(360-n)!)*(360-n)!/(9!(351-n)!) possible kingdoms. That simplifies to 360!/(9!n!(351-n!)). Getting the exact sum ∑n=1350 360!/(9!n!(351-n!)) in wolfram alpha expends more computation time than the free version allows, but that doesn't matter because it output it does give me is this:
Quote from: Wolfram Alpha
5.4142756889123355558613982831116653273300579874856051... 10^757
which is a number so insanely huge that all the other previous math is essentially pointless now. Good job Black Market.

So it turns out, when I typed out the simplified version of this equation (and subsequently copied it into Wolfram Alpha), I ended up putting the "!" on the wrong side of a set of parentheses, giving me "(351-n!)" rather than "(351-n)!" which means that the number is wrong. Summing up the corrected formula does not exceed the computation time limit, and so using scientific notation and rounding to two decimal places, we actually get 1.16 10123. Still insanely huge, and still several times the estimated number of atoms in the Universe, just significantly less so.

13
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: March 25, 2020, 12:19:26 am »


First idea I came up with. Probably not balanced.

14
Ok, here's the formulas I have so far:

Our starting point is the 366 kingdom cards, minus Druid, the three Looters, Young Witch, and Black Market, so 360 cards. Let's let An=360!/(n!(360-n)!), so that I can use variables instead of writing out the formula each time I need to grab a different number of cards from this set. So, without those 6 cards (which will be added back in later), we start with A10 kingdoms.

To add Platinum and Colony, as well as Shelters, we'll do the same as in the op, but corrected with the new numbers. Removing Prosperity leaves us with 335 cards, so let Bn=335!/(n!(335-n)!). We've already taken out 3 Dark Ages cards, so we just need to cut the other 32, leaving us with 328 cards, so let Cn=328!/(n!(328-n)!), and we'll let Dn=303!/(n!(303-n)!), or the kingdoms without either. This gives us the follwoing:
Platinum/Colony = A10-B10
Shelters = A10-C10
Both = A10-B10-(C10-D10), or A10-B10-C10+D10
Add all of these to our initial A10 and combine like terms: 4A10-2B10-2C10+D10, or 2(2A10-B10-C10)+D10

Now, to add Druid, we'll calculate the number of 9-card kingdoms (the 10th card is Druid) and multiply by the number of possible combinations of set aside boons. 12!/(3!*9!)=220, so for each kingdom with Druid, there are actually 220 kingdoms. To get the 9-card kingdoms, we'll use the above total formula, using subscript 9 instead of 10. Since Druid costs , any kingdom that has it can also add Young Witch to make a new, valid kingdom, so we'll multiply all of this by 2 again. 2*220=440, and multiply to get:
Kingdoms with Druid = 440(2(2A9-B9-C9)+D9), or 880(2A9-B9-C9)+440D9

Adding Looters gets a little tricky. We're going to limit our scope to 2-player games for this, partly because that's all people care about here, and partly because it makes the math MUCH easier. In a 2-player game, there is a pile of 10 ruins. Since we don't care about probability of any given ruins pile, and there just happen to be 10 copies of each of the 5 ruins, that gives us 510 possible ruins piles. However, that also accounts for the order of the pile. We could do 50!/(10!40!), but that assumes 50 unique ruins, and is several orders of magnitude larger than 510, so until I figure out how to ignore the order of the pile, 510 it is. Since all games with Looters automatically have a chance for shelters, we can ignore the shelters combination formulas and just use 2An-Bn, where n is the number non-Looter cards in the kingdom, and then multiply everything by 2. So:
One Looter = 6*510(2A9-B9)
Two Looters = 6*510(2A8-B8)
Three Looters = 2*510(2A7-B7)

To add Druid to the Looters, we reduce all the subscripts by 1, and multiply by 440 (because why not double count for Young Witch while we're at it?)
One Looter = 2,640*510(2A8-B8)
Two Looters = 2,640*510(2A7-B7)
Three Looters = 880*510(2A6-B6)

Now for the rest of the kingdoms with Young Witch, we're going to end up making some more new variables. There are 108 kingdom cards that cost or . However, we've already removed Druid and Black Market, which cost and respectively, leaving 106. 360-106=254, so let En=254!/(n!(254-n)!).

Next, we have to double count all those that include Prosperity, which means creating yet another variable for the kingdoms with neither Prosperity nor or cards. 3 Prosperity cards cost (Loan, Trade Route, and Watchtower) and have already been removed in our 254. So subtracting the other 22 leaves Fn=232!/(n!(232-n)!).

Now we need the ones with Dark Ages. The set has 3 cards costing and 6 cards costing . Take the 32 from earlier, subtract those 9, we get 23 Dark Ages cards still included. 254-23=231, so let Gn=231!/(n!(231-n)!).

Finally, we create one more variable that includes none of these. So we take our 232, subtract our 23, and we get 209, so let Hn=209!/(n!(209-n)!). So all of the formulas for kingdoms with Young Witch, excluding those with Druid, Looters, or Black Market, are as follows:
Just Young Witch = A10-E10
Young Witch and Platinum/Colony = A10-B10-(E10-F10), or A10-B10-E10+F10
Young Witch and Shelters = A10-C10-(E10-G10), or A10-C10-E10+G10
Young Witch and Both = A10-B10-(C10-D10)-(E10-H10), or A10-B10-C10+D10-E10+H10
Add them up and combine like terms: 4A10-2B10-2C10+D10-4E10+F10+G10+H10, or 4(A10-E10)-2(B10+C10)+D10+F10+G10+H10

Now we add Young Witch to the Looters, or rather, looters to Young Witch. Once again, we can ignore the Shelters component and just multiply by two.
One Looter = 6*510(A9-B9-E9+F9)
Two Looters = 6*510(A8-B8-E8+F8)
Three Looters = 2*510(A7-B7-E7+F7)

We finally arrive at the dreaded Black Market, and here is where things get even more dicey than the Ruins situation above. Allowing for a 0-card Black Market deck based on the brief number theory discussion earlier is simple enough; I could have even included it in all the other formulas above, but that would have confused me when I got to this step, so instead we'll go through several of the above formulas and do two things to them:
1) Reduce the subscript by 1
2)Double count for Young Witch, since Black Market costs (skip this step for formulas that include Druid, since we've already done that there)
Starting point, Platinum/Colony, and Shelters = 4(2A9-B9-C9)+2D9
Druid = 880(2A8-B8-C8)+440D8
One Looter = 12*510(2A8-B8)
Two Looters = 12*510(2A7-B7)
Three Looters = 4*510(2A6-B6)
Druid and one Looter = 2,640*510(2A7-B7)
Druid and two Looters = 2,640*510(2A6-B6)
Druid and three Looters = 880*510(2A5-B5)

Next, we get kingdoms that actually have a Black Market deck. For a Black Market deck of n cards, where 0<n<351, and neither the deck nor the kingdom includes Druid, Looters, or Young Witch, there are 360!/(n!(360-n)!)*(360-n)!/(9!(351-n)!) possible kingdoms. That simplifies to 360!/(9!n!(351-n!)). Getting the exact sum ∑n=1350 360!/(9!n!(351-n!)) in wolfram alpha expends more computation time than the free version allows, but that doesn't matter because it output it does give me is this:
Quote from: Wolfram Alpha
5.4142756889123355558613982831116653273300579874856051... 10^757
which is a number so insanely huge that all the other previous math is essentially pointless now. Good job Black Market.

This is as far as I've gotten. That number for Black Market does not account for: which of the two options is chosen from each split pile, which knight is chosen, druid at all, looters at all, shelters, or platinum and colony. Which means that number can only get even crazier. I haven't put the energy into figuring out those formulas; that is also the only one I've put through Wolfram Alpha, but I think we can agree it's pointless running any of the others if we're going to go for all possible Black Market decks.

15
Wait, the integral thing: will that actually get me what I want? If I integrate f(x) from say, 1 to 300, will I get the same result as calculating f(1) + f(2) + f(3) + ... + f(300)? I barely remember AP calculus AB, so I'd love to hear from someone better at calculus than I am.

That is definitely not true in general:

∫₁⁵ x dx = 12
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15

Ok, is there a way to do that where I don't have to individually calculate (or rather, type into wolfram alpha) f(x) for each integer value in the range?

The best thing to do would be to look for a closed-form solution of the sum, which is nontrivial.  Wolfram Alpha can sometimes figure it out for you.  Actually, you could just type in your formula and tell it to do a sum.  That should work as well.

So it did! Cool. Back to work.

16
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The most setup
« on: March 24, 2020, 01:40:46 pm »
Before renaissance and menagerie came out, I did a similar thought experiment. The goal was not most setup overall, but to have as many piles of cards as possible and generally be as confusing as it could be for new players, all without touching Black Market:

Kingdom Cards:
1, 2) Page and Peasant each add 4 extra piles. Peasant also adds the 4 vanilla bonus tokens for Teacher, and the Tavern Mat.
3) Druid adds Boons, Will-o-Wisp, and the three set aside ones.
4) Fool gives us the lucky coin heirloom, and Lost in the Woods.
5) Young Witch. Obviously. It's basically a free extra pile with all of these $2 cards.
6) Bishop adds VP chips, and is a Prosperity card, allowing us to add Platinum and Colony. Bonus points for caring about costs, since we'll be adding a potion cost card in a bit. For extra setup, could get out the VP mats since this is from Prosperity rather than Empires.
7) Marauder gives us Ruins and Spoils. It's also from Dark Ages, allowing the use of Shelters.
8 ) Tournament gets us prizes.
9) Exorcist gets us the other two spirit piles
10) Vampire gives us Hexes, states for said hexes, and the Bat pile.
11) Finally, Possession, for potions, but also because of all the rules wackiness and various errata. Who knows what this card does anymore?

As for landscapes, I went with the following:
1) Inheritance. Only three things here can't be Inherited: Possession and Vampire cost too much, and Vampire and Exorcist are Nights, not Actions. This was also done pre-2019-errata (since, ya know, no renaissance), so there was all the shapeshifting to consider, and bonus confusion points for things like exchanging an estate for a warrior, or being unable to reveal am estate if you inherit a bane card.
2) Mountain Pass. Read it a dozen times and still be confused about it. Also, what the heck is debt?

So, the final tally:
11 kingdom piles (10 standard + Bane)
11 base cards (7 standard, Platinum, Colony, Potion, Ruins)
14 non-supply piles (8 traveler upgrades, 3 spirits, Spoils, Prizes, Bat)
10 landscape piles (Boons, Hexes, 3 set-aside Boons, Deluded/Envious, Miserable/Twice Miserable, Lost in the Woods, Inheritance, Mountain Pass)
Total: 46 piles of cards on the table

Bonus:
4 replaced starting cards (3 Shelters, Lucky Coin)
2 mats per player (Tavern Mat, Prosperity vp mats)
5 player tokens (4 vanilla bonuses, Estate Token)
VP tokens
Debt tokens

This could get even cwazier now:
1) Replace Fool with Border Gaurd. We lose Lost in the Woods and Lucky Coin, but we add two Artifacts.
2) Replace Inheritance with Way of the Mouse - Pixie. We lose a player token, but we get a new Heirloom to replace losing Lucky Coin above. Besides, most of the rules confusion with Inheritance was lost anyway with the 2019 errata, so now we get all sorts of new wackiness where the 9 leftover boons are shuffled and can be cycled through, but you can never receive them because Pixie can't trash itself.

17
Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
Lantern never gets involved; we never reach the point at which Lantern would do anything.

So I was right in the rules thread; lantern is timed as when-would-reveal, not when-would-resolve.

18
Wait, the integral thing: will that actually get me what I want? If I integrate f(x) from say, 1 to 300, will I get the same result as calculating f(1) + f(2) + f(3) + ... + f(300)? I barely remember AP calculus AB, so I'd love to hear from someone better at calculus than I am.

That is definitely not true in general:

∫₁⁵ x dx = 12
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15

Ok, is there a way to do that where I don't have to individually calculate (or rather, type into wolfram alpha) f(x) for each integer value in the range?

19
Wait, the integral thing: will that actually get me what I want? If I integrate f(x) from say, 1 to 300, will I get the same result as calculating f(1) + f(2) + f(3) + ... + f(300)? I barely remember AP calculus AB, so I'd love to hear from someone better at calculus than I am.

20
So, I'm going to assume that since we don't care about ruins order, knights order, or which card obelisk picks, we also don't care which card specifically is the bane, only that there are 11 kingdom cards including young witch, and at least one of them costs $2 or $3.

I would agree.

The best way to calculate that would probably be to calculate the # of kingdoms, pretending Young Witch wasn't even a card, and then double-count all the kingdoms with cards costing or .

Way ahead of you there. Black Market is hard though. Busting out integrals for that so I don't have to write a different equation for each possible size. Still working out the various formulas, by the way.

Not following... the Young Witch Kingdoms would have 11 piles instead of 10; which would do a lot more than just double count wouldn't it?

The eleventh pile is Young Witch herself. So if we get a bunch of 10-card kingdoms, all of which have at least one or card, then add Young Witch to that kingdom, it becomes a valid kingdom.

21
So, I'm going to assume that since we don't care about ruins order, knights order, or which card obelisk picks, we also don't care which card specifically is the bane, only that there are 11 kingdom cards including young witch, and at least one of them costs $2 or $3.

22
And here I was hoping for some precise combinatorials involving Young Witch's bane and Way of the Mouse, as well as an adjustment factor for kingdoms that include both.

I am disappoint.
Don't forget Obelisk, the ordering of the Knights pile, and the ordering and composition of the Ruins pile.

The ordering of the Knights pile or the Ruins pile doesn't make different kingdoms, though. Yet, the composition of the Ruins pile do. This will also vary depending on the number of players from two to six.
I'd argue that a Kingdom where Dame Anna is the top Knight plays vastly differently from one where Dame Josephine is, and thus it makes sense to call these different kingdoms.

For the Ruins pile of course it matters less, though occasionally it is relevant whether the top Ruins is RUined Market.

I agree that it plays vastly different from other Knights games, but you're talking about different experiences, not different kingdoms. Every shuffle makes each game unique as well, so those should also count, if that's the case. For every shuffle during the game, by the way. Would you say that identical kingdoms are different for two players and six players? Maybe we should multiply everything by five to take that into consideration as well? I don't know. Maybe OP can give us some more guidelines.

I think one valid definition is "what set of cards and card-shaped things are available this game"? Available meaning "could possibly be available depending on how the game plays out"; so the bottom Knight is considered "available". Under this definition; order of Knights and Black Market cards don't count. Obelisk pick doesn't count. Way of the Mouse and Druid choices do count. Which Ruins are in the game count, but not which order they are in.

I'm inclined to agree with this definition. I'm currently working out the formulas with pen and paper. The question now is: what to do about the Black Market deck? On the one hand, there's what should technically be done, which is just one of everything (with the exceptions of only one card from each split pile, one knight, and one castle). On the other, there's how most people play it: with a deck of only 25-30 cards. Thoughts?

23
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Actually Passable Card Ideas
« on: March 23, 2020, 08:49:18 am »
LOL! The f.ds extension picked up on Fair !

I've also seen that with Haven't. (it interprets the apostrophe as an end-of-word marker, I think)

Which makes sense, as we tend to use possessives when talking about cards, such as Young Witch's bane.

24
There's a total of 376 kingdom cards (including the removed cards,
??? I count 366 (truth: table sheet does)

Ah, you're right, I somehow added 10 cards. That's what I get for doing complex math at 2 am.

25
And here I was hoping for some precise combinatorials involving Young Witch's bane and Way of the Mouse, as well as an adjustment factor for kingdoms that include both.

I am disappoint.

The issue with that is you'd have to figure out how to control for what 2's and 3's are already in the kingdom, which makes it hard. Like I said at the beginning: I'm lazy.

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