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Messages - trivialknot

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Not enough village in Menagerie?
« on: March 22, 2020, 02:26:53 pm »
If you take a look at Dominion statistics, they have labels for all the cards, including whether they are villages.  This includes some cards that are labeled as half a village, if their villaginess is inconsistent.

So I filtered out landscapes, and summed up the number of villages per expansion, divided by number of cards.  Note that this still includes stuff like Shelters and Colonies, because I didn't want to do the work to filter those out.

Expansion   #cards per village
Base   8.7
Intrigue   7.4
Seaside   8.7
Alchemy   6.5
Prosperity   8.7
Cornucopia   5.2
Hinterlands   10.4
Dark Ages   5.8
Guilds   6.5
Adventures   5
Empires   4.4
Nocturne   6.2
Promo   2.6
Renaissance   3.3
Grand Total   5.9

The number of cards per village has gone down over time.

Menagerie has 30 kingdom cards, and I would say 5.5 villages (Village Green, Hostelry, Hunting Lodge, Snowy Village, Mastermind, and Paddock as half-village).  So that puts it at 5.5 cards per village, or 6 cards per village if you don't count Paddock.  That puts it around Nocturne, and that's not counting Ox or all the village-events.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 12, 2020, 12:09:07 pm »
One dilemma this card presents: Do you exile a card that you're likely to gain this shuffle, or do you speculatively exile a card that you'll gain in a future shuffle?

I guess the way I use Duplicate, I often let it sit on the mat through shuffles, to wait for a better card.  Camel Train seems even better for this purpose, as Camel Train will not skip shuffles.  So we may see a lot of exiling-for-later with Camel Train.  Looking forward to it.

Something I'd like to see in future bonus previews, are attacks, or otherwise interactive cards/landscapes.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 11, 2020, 09:57:09 am »
Thoughts on bonus previews:

Way of the Chameleon: It seems really powerful with non-terminal money cards like Courtier or Coven, but in the typical case it probably just ensures that there are even more options for draw.  And you can turn your overdraw into $$.  Overall, I suspect this is less zany than it first appears.  But I'm sure my friends and I will have fun arguing about the rules.

Way of the Rat: I had a fan event that was pretty similar to this.  TBH, it was a dud, just not very interesting--sometimes cards were cheaper, and that was it.  I think this one's a bit more interesting though, because it costs an action rather than coin.

Village Green: Maybe we can revisit those days when people thought Tunnel was really powerful, and tried triggering the reaction every way imaginable.  And then people seem to have figured out that tunnels aren't that strong.  But maybe this could be strong?  Well it's a village+, so the floor is pretty high.

Alliance: I love this.  Something that really appeals to me about Dominion, is this narrative arc where you build up, and then your deck slowly collapses as you cash out.  Alliance offers the option for even more dramatic collapse.  I sure hope this is good sometimes.

Gamble: The first main use I see is to clear out the bottom of your shuffle, especially if you know what's down there and don't want it to skip.  The second main use is, when drawing deck, to play something you just gained.  Like Innovation.  Innovation is good, so I'm sure this is good as well.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 12:05:00 pm »
Does it ever make a difference that "other card" means "other than Wayfarer"?
I would think so.  If you gain Village, followed by a Wayfarer (or two?), and then put Ferry on Village, then the cost would behave differently depending on whether it's tracking Village or Wayfarer.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 11:58:45 am »
The problem with Wayfarer is that we play offline with pre-errata rules (hard to remember errata rules when they're not printed!).  So if I gain and play a Band of Misfits, what happens?  I guess we do whatever we want.

I really like Black Cat and Coven, late-game cursing is a great space that I'm glad is getting explored more.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« on: March 04, 2020, 11:07:14 pm »
Exile is an excellent mechanic, because you can do really simple things with it, with interesting results.  Stockpile is a great example.  A card that exiles itself on play, that's all it is, but people on Discord have been arguing about how good it is all day.

I can imagine a workshop variant that exiles cards from the supply.  A card that blindly exiles cards from the top of your deck.  An exile-for-benefit card.  An attack that exiles opponent's good cards.  I'm looking forward to seeing what else the set has.

Bounty Hunter - Why is this so strong?  People initially underestimated Priest because they didn't understand how it trashes cards and helps you hit $5 at the same time, much like another power card, Masquerade.  But bounty hunter gives more money, it is nonterminal, and it thins provinces without losing VP?  Would it really have been too weak if it only had two of those three?  I wouldn't be surprised if Bounty Hunter makes you green much earlier in most games.

Stockpile - Definitely one of the harder cards to wrap your head around.  People on Discord seem to think it's good to pile these, but I'm not so sure.  Surely sometimes you can do better than having a bunch of gold in your deck.  The thing I like about this card, is imagining what happens when it's the only +Buy.  You have to buy several of these over multiple shuffles before you net much +buy out of them.  And if they pile out, that's it for your buys.

Coven - I think this is usually easier to deal with curses one at a time.  It gives you time to get control of your deck, and when the curses arrive you're ready for them.  But I really like this card.  It makes you rethink what kind of trashers are good or bad at responding to it.  And it gives your games a narrative arc.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« on: March 04, 2020, 10:52:31 pm »
Supplies - A $2-cost Peddler, this is so straightforwardly good, it hurts me.  I've always argued that the disadvantage of duration draw is that the card stays out and skips shuffles more often.  Well Supplies doesn't even have that problem.  I don't like it.

Scrap - It seems decent at trashing estates.  +$ and +draw puts it between Masquerade and Priest, and the silver/horse options mean you can defer the bonus to later instead of now.  Otherwise, it doesn't seem like there are very many things you're happy to trash.  For example, trashing a silver and gaining a silver is like spending two cards to play a Pawn.  I think after estates, its main strength is flexibility.

Livery - Seems like a power card--decent if you get even just one horse, and potentially amazing if you get more.  And imagine relying on only this for draw, it's so awkward and limited.  I love cards like this.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« on: March 03, 2020, 10:36:48 am »
Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

No, they happen in the printed order. Same as Pawn, etc.
I do not believe that is true of Pawn according to the rulebook--not that it matters, anyway.  It is true of Trusty Steed.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« on: March 03, 2020, 10:14:23 am »
Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« on: March 02, 2020, 07:46:31 am »
Wow, 40 landscapes?  I'm excited for that.  I'm also super pleased in anticipation of the inevitable release of Socks.

Some of you may remember this from the holiday joke cards that were on dominionstrategy a few years ago. I wouldn't be expecting those other cards

Well, I love Snowy Village.  It reminds me of Tragic Hero, another favorite card.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best buying strategy
« on: January 25, 2020, 01:10:41 am »
Okay, here are some cost calculations:

9 for Canal (all these prices include TFair)
4 for Watchtower
5 for Blessed Village
3.5x for x Tunnels (using Ball)
3.5y for y Cursed Villages (using Ball, trashing all gains with Watchtower)
7z for z Triumphs

With every 12 Cursed villages, there are 15+x gains (Cursed Villages, Greed, Plague, Locusts, War).  Just put Locusts after Greed so you never trash a Tunnel.

So the total VP is:

2x for Tunnels
-4 for Twice Miserable
y/12*(15+x) for trashing (Tomb)
z for Estates
~z*(z/2+y/12*(15+x)) for Triumphs

I'm not going to solve for these variables exactly, but by far the most important term is proportional to x*y*z, and that can be maximized by splitting money equally between Tunnels, Cursed Villages, and Triumphs.  I estimate about 35,998,000,000,000 VP, which improves on previous solutions by two orders of magnitude.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Best buying strategy
« on: January 25, 2020, 12:14:43 am »
Ignoring the infinite solutions, I think there's a solution that scales better than N^2.  You can buy a bunch of Tunnels, followed by a bunch of Cursed Villages.  Not sure how much you're allowed to stack hexes, but War should allow you to gain a bunch of gold (using Canal to skip past tunnels and Watchtower to trash Cursed Villages.)  Then buy a bunch of triumphs.  This doesn't sound very efficient, but it should scale as N^3, so with enough coffers it should eventually be better.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:12 pm »
The interesting thing is that with coffers, you have vanilla cards.  You have baker, candlestick maker, and to a lesser extent plaza and villain.  But there arenít really vanilla villager cards.  No cantrip that gives you villagers, just patron and maybe acting troupe.  I think vanilla villager cards just donít work as well as cards like lackeys that put a limit on how many you can gain. 

The question is if horses are more like coffers or more like villagers.  I suspect theyíre more like coffers, and vanilla horse cards would work just fine.  Consider an action that just says +1 action, +1 Horse.  Seems like a solid card idea to me.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Menagerie
« on: January 08, 2020, 01:04:38 pm »
With 400 cards and only 30 kingdom cards, I wonder how the other 70 cards are accounted for.  70 events seems implausible, so maybe Horses are cards, or maybe Ways are implemented in a way that requires a lot of cards.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« on: September 25, 2019, 10:55:20 am »
It seems like with the new Inheritance rule, it's no longer necessary to restrict to non-victory cards.  I suppose you don't want to change what it does any more than necessary, but we might house-rule it so we can inherit Islands and Mills, if it ever matters.

The stop-moving rule is an improvement.  I was explaining the errata to my partner, and he was incredulous at the pre-errata interaction between Death Cart and Summon.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 06:53:00 pm »
Another thought: is being forced to choose Stash's position in the shuffle strictly better than not having any choice?

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 06:49:29 pm »
I don't really care about the definition of "strictly better", I just enjoy thinking of rules or edge-cases that other people haven't yet mentioned.  Don't we all?

Another strict improvement: Being a bane card--except online, where there's an information leak.

In theory, a card could be strictly better if it gave you more information, e.g. look through your discard pile, or have your opponent discard cards one at a time (so you can see them) instead of all at once.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 12:08:10 pm »
Coffers can be bad if you want to play Swashbuckler without getting the treasure chest.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 05, 2019, 01:18:10 am »
While you're identifying headdresses, what about the headdress in Donate?  Or is that her hair?

Simulation / Re: BM + Flag Bearer
« on: April 03, 2019, 07:03:43 pm »
That raises the question: How would the results differ with 9 or 11 Flag Bearers in the kingdom?
It also seems that if either player stops buying Flag Bearers before the pile is out, then that player loses.
More specifically, if there are 10 flag bearers, then the player who gets first flag loses 7%/90%.  If there are 9 flag bearers, then the player who gets first flag wins 81%/14%.

So yes, the majority of the effect in this case, is who ends up with the flag in the long run.
Then it seems like an obvious improvement of the strategy to add a rule to buy the LAST flag bearer even if you already have the flag (and maybe even add a penultimate Flag bearer rule?).
The last Flag Bearer is much more important than the first when contested, unless the pile isn't emptied before the very end.
Nope, tried that too.
I also tried a strategy that opens Flag Bearer, and tries to snag an extra one so that it keeps the flag when the pile is out.  This helps, but still worse than not opening Flag Bearer.
The best I can do with this strategy is a 15% win rate.

Simulation / Re: BM + Flag Bearer
« on: April 03, 2019, 11:10:44 am »
That raises the question: How would the results differ with 9 or 11 Flag Bearers in the kingdom?
It also seems that if either player stops buying Flag Bearers before the pile is out, then that player loses.
More specifically, if there are 10 flag bearers, then the player who gets first flag loses 7%/90%.  If there are 9 flag bearers, then the player who gets first flag wins 81%/14%.

So yes, the majority of the effect in this case, is who ends up with the flag in the long run.

Simulation / Re: BM + Flag Bearer
« on: April 03, 2019, 12:38:24 am »
Why does buying the first Flag Bearer put you at a disadvantage?
Once a bots gets the first Flag Bearer, both bots will keep on getting Flag Bearers until they pile.  So the bot that got flag first does not actually have the flag more often.  And on average, that bot will have more Flag Bearers in their deck (which is bad because of terminal collision).  And finally, once the Flag Bearer pile empties, the bot who got the flag first loses it forever.

Later in the game, when players are greening, getting a Flag Bearer isn't as bad, because the opponent doesn't want to pass up a province just to take the flag away.  (The first bot on the other hand, did not pass up a province, because the rule is that it only buys the first Flag Bearer when it doesn't have enough money for Province.)

You should be cautious about interpreting these results.  They're just bots, and it's just big money.  I think in a real kingdom, first flag bearer is better, because your opponent is often passing up something good to take the flag away from you.

How strong is adding +Action to Cobbler? Gaining a $4 to the top of your deck is the effect of Armory, a $4 cost action. Drawing a card is the effect of playing a Laboratory from your hand, a $5 cost action. So Cobbler's effect can be thought of as non-terminal Armory + Laboratory. In contrast, getting an extra action is the effect of a Village. So the revision improves Cobbler's effect to that of non-terminal Armory + Laboratory + Village.  I also doubt this take on Cobbler would lead to particularly fast 3-piles, because you need two Cobblers to gain one card per turn.
The situation I was imagining is, what if Cobbler is the only village, and you really need that village?  So you get more Cobblers than you really want, and there go the piles.  I mean, it might be interesting, and perhaps not any worse than University.  If you test it I'd love to hear about it.

The point of removing Hexes is to reduce the complexity of the cards. With that in mind, Envy and Misery are out. Cursed Village could be worth -1 VP, if that doesn't cause rules confusion. That may be too large a penalty.  Leprechaun giving Poverty would make its drawback more severe in decks that draw and want to play it for the Wish than in money-heavy decks that never intend to play it for the Wish. That seems backwards.
Misery and Envy are complex?  I never would have thought so, not on their own.  Anyway, it doesn't seem like you should constrain yourself to copying the hexes exactly.  For Leprechaun, you could ignore the "envious" state, and just say "for the rest of this turn, golds give only $1".  -1 VP is probably a close-enough approximation of Misery. I doubt that it's too large, given my experience with landmarks like Obelisk.

I like hexes too, but I don't need to agree with the OP's premise to give constructive feedback.  This argument seems like a non-issue.

Instead of dropping Fool, you could just change the boons to vanilla bonuses.  e.g. receive 3 boons -> +3 cards, and Lost in the Woods lets you discard a card to draw a card.  I think that would be a pretty reasonable card.  I wouldn't pair it with lucky coin though, that's just asking for big money games.

I don't really think Cobbler needs a buff, and adding +Action is probably very strong.  I'd be worried that if it's too strong then it 3-piles too fast.

Giving +Buy to Raider sounds fine.  I don't really like Raider that much even when it's good though.

I'd pair Leprechaun with Poverty or Envy, preserving the phenomenon where you're afraid to play Leprechaun if you're not getting a wish because it might ruin your turn.

I'd pair Cursed Village with Misery or Envy.  Misery only really hurts if you're the only player getting Cursed Village.  Envy probably doesn't hurt at all in the kind of deck that likes Cursed Village, but sometimes it might.  Or maybe just forget hexes and take your -1 coin token.

I'd predict that your take on Tormentor is very centralizing.  I mean, junkers often are, because you don't want to be the only player gaining them.  But you know, if a card makes you jump through hoops to junk your opponent, often what that means is you're just going to spend more of the game jumping through hoops.  And it's not like Idol, because you often don't want silver in your deck, but imps are good in almost any deck.  But it might be fine even if it's centralizing--Imps are interactive.  I'd test it to see if it has a runaway winner problem.

That was a joke my friends.  More will-o-wisp facts: Will-o-wisp is better than lab because if the top card of your deck is something crappy (like a will-o-wisp), will-o-wisp will clear it out for you, and if it's something good (like a lab), will-o-wisp will save it for your next turn for increased reliability.

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