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Messages - trivialknot

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Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Cornucopia Prize: Trusty Steed
« on: November 18, 2018, 10:04:56 pm »
I've taken silvers many times.  It doesn't need a combo to be good.  It's just okay.  You do it when you're playing a money thing.  It keeps your deck viable for a longer period of time, especially if someone's playing Followers and there's no trashing.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 15, 2018, 02:40:31 pm »
We got our physical copy of Dominion.

We played a game where the only "village" was Patron.  We couldn't build an engine out of it, but it seemed really effective for BM+terminal draw.  We realized that Patron eliminated the biggest drawback of terminal draw (drawing actions dead) since you could just spend a villager, play some cantrips, and get the villager back by ending with Patron.

I know I should have seen that coming, but this nonetheless surprised me.  Terminal draw plus cantrips!  A whole new type of deck!

As long as the backs don't look different.  The Adventures cards are a bit lighter on the back, and mostly I try not to notice it.

Someone show us what the coffers/villagers mat looks like!

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« on: November 09, 2018, 06:09:41 pm »
I felt like I understood Seprix's argument better and felt more sympathy towards it, when Peasant was replaced with King's Court.

Does it affect the card backs, or only the front?

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Reaction cards
« on: November 09, 2018, 11:19:50 am »
Split piles were my favorite mechanic from Empires...

I don't really mind complexity, and I loved Nocturne.  But I feel it's quite different in the context of fan cards vs official cards.  When it comes to fan cards, there are just so many of them, mostly bad, so there's a sense of fatigue.  "Oh, it's another card with 8 lines of small-type font."  Even when I understand the card, it's hard enough to imagine what would happen in games that included it.  I don't want to work so hard just to understand a card that in all likelihood is terribroken anyway.

And like, I don't even play with any of these cards.  I look at fan cards for the entertainment value.  If a card is making itself difficult to understand, I don't need to understand it.

Fan cards often tend towards complexity, because they're more for the designer than for the players.  Obviously the designer already understands the whole concept of the card; they designed it, it seems pretty simple to them.  Many fan cards are also trying to draw a lot of attention to themselves, or they're trying to do all the things, or they're trying to do "theme".

The relative simplicity of Asper's cards compared to other fan cards is well appreciated.  But I would have difficulty comparing the complexity of Asper's cards to the official cards, because the context is so different.  I don't have the same expectations.

Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« on: November 08, 2018, 12:37:23 pm »
Where was the ruling that Capitalism affects cards with the +$1 token? I thought it just affected Teacher, which refers to the +$1 token by name.
Oh.  When it was said that Capitalism affects Teacher, I misunderstood that to mean that it affects Teacher tokens, but I guess we were talking about Teacher itself.  Good thing, because I didn't think it made any sense for it to affect the Teacher tokens.

Rules Questions / Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« on: November 08, 2018, 08:51:26 am »
Singletee's argument makes sense to me.  But could you make the same argument about bonus tokens?

For example, say I inherit and train Border Guard (Training says "When you play a card from that pile, you first get +$1").  Your estates are not from the Border Guard pile, so intuitively they shouldn't get the +$1 bonus.  On the other hand, the Border Guard that has your inheritance token on it, that Border Guard has +$1, so shouldn't your Estates inherit that ability?

To further complicate matters, suppose that you also have Capitalism.  The Border Guard with the inheritance token now has the Treasure type (per the ruling that Capitalism affects cards with the +$1 token).  Do your Estates now inherit the treasure type, even though they don't have the +$1? (ETA: this is wrong, there is no such ruling)

Rules Questions / Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 08, 2018, 08:20:49 am »
Hmm. I mean, I can't even think of an instance where it would actually matter if you can play more Treasures after buying from Black Market, as the card lets you play more Treasures while it's being played anyway. The only potential problem I can think of is more than one Black Market, which can just be played by the first Black Market anyway.
I got this one!

Action phase: play Black Market, buy nothing.
Buy phase: play Scepter, playing Black Market, playing all treasure, buying Smithy.
Play Smithy using Innovation, draw more treasure.  Now you want to play it.

Keep has a lot more potential for points.
Does it though? The actions are only Treasures during your turns, not at the end of the game.

Ah yes, you are correct. Too bad though.

But, will the vp-counter show it as if they indeed would give points? That may cause some frustrating losses out of nowhere I could imagine.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 06, 2018, 01:47:43 am »
Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X.  Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own.  Scepter + Jack might be good.  Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.

I think Scepter is one of the strongest Throne Room variants. You can use multiple Scepters on the same target, you can use it on a target that you played way earlier on your turn, it lets you play Actions after you've played Treasures for some neat tricks sometimes, you can't draw it dead, and if you draw it without a target, it's still +$2. It introduces some restrictions that other Thrones don't have, but it also has some unique strengths, and it also has the strength that used to be unique to Royal Carriage.

You can even play strategies that are basically engine/big money hybrids with Scepter because of how resilient it is against unlucky draws. Scepter + Scholar is an obvious example that works super well.
I see your point.  Scepter + Scholar looks very strong, but even Scepter + Smithy is quite good.  Throne Room + Smithy needs three cards in your starting hand to kick off, but Scepter + Smithy only needs one.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 06, 2018, 12:28:40 am »
Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X.  Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own.  Scepter + Jack might be good.  Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 05, 2018, 03:09:07 pm »
My initial impression of Cargo Ship was that it was weak.  It seems comparable to Tracker, but a bit better in the opening because the extra money makes it easier to hit $5.

Hideout looks game-warping.  A cantrip trasher for $4 is already amazing.  And the fact that it's a village means engines go up really quick.  The curse-gaining looks like an important balancing effect, because at first you can only trash down by trashing copper, and in the late game you can buy Estates to feed your Hideouts.

Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does.  But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential.  5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components.  It might be better for building, worse for scoring.

Although there's a lot of focus on the weird interactions and combos with Capitalism, I think it's a solid project even without them.  Just consider Capitalism + Monument, it's probably good.  Payload cards were underappreciated Lost Arts targets, because they were overshadowed by Lost Arts on terminal draw.

Cathedral resembles some of my speculation from weeks ago, but I'm surprised that there's no protection against discard attacks.  Right now it's tough to judge when the appropriate time to buy this is, but it's punishing enough that I'm sure it will become clear in time.

In general, I'm very pleased with the use of the villagers effect.  They're a finite resource, contingent on gaining or trashing a card, or on playing a terminal action.  If Coffers are a tradeoff between flexibility and raw strength, then Villagers are a tradeoff between reliability and longevity.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 05, 2018, 11:36:55 am »
Trashing seems particularly strong in this set, with three trashers being so strong that you worry about running out of fuel (Recruiter, Hideout, Cathedral), and several other decent trashers besides (Priest, Treasurer, Sewers, Research, I wouldn't really count Ducat or Improve).

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 05, 2018, 11:23:25 am »
It appears that a subtheme is "effects that interact with categories that we never really thought about before".  Patron reacting to being revealed. Capitalism reacting to actions with +$. Sewers and Priest reacting to trashing, including self-trashing.  Swashbuckler reacting to things that put stuff in the discard.  Seer reacting to $2-$4-costs.  And of course, there's the whole class of actions that are useful to play during the Buy phase.

Another subtheme is on-gain effects.  I mean, those are in every set, but there are especially a lot of them here.  I think it's because +Coffers and +Villagers are very interesting when they're on-gain.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 08:41:01 pm »
I think the first question to ask is: is there a board where, if player A never does anything (and controls the shuffles), player B cannot win?

For this, some calculations. So  the idea is to have a useless kingdom (maybe all Villages or something) so you are limited to basic Treasures. But we add Bandit Camp! So basic Treasures are worth negative VP.

So we start with 7 Coppers. Player B only ever gets the highest-value Treasure they could possibly buy. As long as the average coin per hand is less than or equal to 5, it will be possible to arrange the shuffle in a way to only give $5 or less hands, forcing to buy another Silver. After adding s Silvers, your average $ per turn is 5*(7 + 2s)/(10 + s). This is larger than 5 if s > 3. Thus, adding 4 Silvers allows you to get at least 1 Gold every 5 shuffles.

Now start adding Golds until your money density is high enough for Provinces. Current money total is 15, and total cards in deck are 14. We now want that 5*(15 + 3g)/(14 + g) > 7. This is the case when g > 23/8. We need to add 3 Golds and then are guaranteed to get Provinces. Of course adding a Province lowers money density, so we have to get more Golds to make up for it. How many? We want a Gold-per-Province ratio such that the average money density remains at least 7, i.e. 5*3g/(p + g) >= 7, or g/p >= 7/8. So to add 8 Provinces, we're adding 7 more Golds.

Now, we added 4 Silvers and 10 Golds total. With Bandit Fort, that's -28 VP. We have a total of 32 cards, with Wall that's another -17 VP, so -45 VP total, but all the Provinces are worth 48 VP, which is still a net profit of 3VP.
Although I gave basically the same solution, I realized a problem with it: shuffle skipping.  With 4 silver, the RNG player can carefully order cards in such a way that you always hit $5.

T3: SCCC (shuffle) E
T5: SCCC (shuffle) E

So you need 5 silver, and then you need 11 gold to be able to pick up the 8th province.  If you only have 10, then you could have the following shuffles:
T7: GG (shuffle) CPP

So the total VP is 48 (provinces) + 3 (estates) - 32 (bandit fort) - 19 (wall) = 0 VP.  Which is losing.

I think you still win by buying a couple duchies though.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 08:11:07 pm »
Sorry faust, I can't read. Or count the number of VP in the province pile for that matter. Where's the foot in mouth emoji?

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 01:33:13 pm »
Thinking about it more, those estimates aren't quite right.  With only four silver, the RNG player can prevent you from ever hitting $6.  But 22VP is a large enough lead that I'm convinced of the result even if the calculation is a bit off.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 01:25:50 pm »
A variant: what if the RNG player, instead of being controlled by the Decision player, simply does nothing all game?

In the base set, I estimate you need 4 silvers before you can afford gold, and then 10 gold to be able to afford the 8th province.  With Wall and Bandit Fort, that's 64+3-28-17=22 VP.  So that's still winning.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« on: October 22, 2018, 01:15:13 pm »
Rennaissance is coming soon!  Must take more shots in the dark in hopes of winning an internet point.

Crop Rotation - $5 Project
When you buy a card, trash a card from your hand.
Of all the leaked card names, Crop Rotation seemed like the most likely candidate for a forced trasher.  And then the name sounds like it would be triggered on buy.

Sinister Plot - $8 Project
When the end-game conditions are fulfilled, you take one more turn before the game ends.
This would be tricky rules-wise, because you have to have a rule for who takes their extra turn first, and what happens if someone buys Mission, Donate, or plays Possession on their last turn?  But the basic concept seems obvious enough.

Fleet - $6 Project
During your action phase, you may play any card face down as an action card with the name "Ship", which gives +$2.
The teaser says there's a card with a word in quotation marks.  I am completely mystified by the idea, so this is just a wild guess.

Next, my guesses for the unknown artifacts:
Border Guard - $3 Action/Reaction
+2 Cards
When the player to your left gains a card costing at least $5, you may reveal this from your hand to take the Horn.

Horn - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, +1 Villager

Hideout - $3 Action
+1 Action
Choose one: Take the Lantern; +1 Card; Or look at the top two cards of your deck, trash one and put the other one back.

Lantern - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, look at the top three cards of your deck, discard any of them, and put the rest back in any order.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« on: October 17, 2018, 11:30:28 pm »
So for one thing cobbler is in nocturne. I hated nocturne! Iím not buying it. I did sorta like the idea of night cards. So I might make my own fan based night cards. The reason why I even made a whole fan based expansion was because of the disappointment with nocturne.

There are about 10 other cards in snowline that will be using the journey token. Snowline is going to be like adventures. It will also have some cards similar to dark ages like hermit/madman, urchin/mercenary. There will be 2 new travelers as well. Tons of other attacks and a few reactions and some similar to reactions. With lots of other durations and reserves.
Well sure.  But the comparison to Cobbler suggests that the natural price for Sled Dogs is $5.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« on: October 17, 2018, 10:15:22 pm »
Thereís already sort of a cantrip gainer: Cobbler.  Cobblers are card neutral, in the sense of pushing a card from one hand to the next.  Sled Dogs are not quite card neutral, since every other play increases your hand size.  While you need to play two Sled dogs to get this effect, they also skip shuffles less often since they arenít durations.  Overall, Sled Dogs seem about as powerful as Cobbler, possibly more so.

Dominion Articles / Re: Draw-to-X engines
« on: October 10, 2018, 09:22:54 pm »
I think the article doesn't adequately address why Draw-to-X engines are less consistent than standard draw engines.  As we know, the point where an engine is most likely to dud is at the beginning of your turn.  After you play a few villages and smithies, you've drawn enough of your deck that it's very likely you have more villages and smithies in hand.  On the other hand, with (say) Hamlet/Watchtower, you have 6 cards in hand at most, so there continues to be a significant risk of stopping throughout your turn.

The specifics of how this plays out differs depending on the kind of draw-to-X.  If you're drawing with Scholar, you have to throw away extra scholars whenever they collide.  If you're drawing with Library, you don't have to throw away extra libraries, but they don't help you draw very much unless they also collide with your disappearing payoff.

This was one of the things that came out of my extremely theoretical analysis of engines.  Conventional draw decks can in principle draw through an infinitely large deck.  Draw-to-X decks always eventually halt.  This may seem like a small distinction, given that real decks are finite in size.  But the implication is that there isn't a clear transition point between a "good-stuff" deck and an "engine" deck.  Draw-to-X decks, more than other kinds of decks, lend themselves to "hybrid" strategies that are somehow in between "engine" and "good stuff". 

I mean, I'm not saying your article needs to include the whole dominion physics analysis, there's probably a simpler way to put it.

If you put Menagerie there (which is a not-really-draw-to-X), then you also need to include Diplomat. Or neither.
*whispers* shanty town

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:40 pm »
The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.  Seems like an obvious Project idea, although I'm not sure how the details would work out.
Trasher you can't turn off - $2 Project
At the beginning of each turn, +1 card, then trash a card from your hand.

I'm not sure if this is a good turn 1 buy, or if it becomes a liability later on, especially in games without +buy.  Maybe it could cost $5 or $6 instead.  I put in the +1 card so it isn't garbage against discard attacks, but there are probably other ways of dealing with that issue.

Another idea:

Trasher you can't turn off - $6 Project
At the beginning of each turn, trash a card from your hand, and gain a non-victory card costing no more than it, to your hand.

So you could get a Transmogrify-type effect each turn.  But maybe that would just demolish piles, so I restricted it from milling Provinces.

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
Upon further reflection, buying Flag Bearer later is not necessarily better.  Because later your deck is better, and there's more of an opportunity cost.  e.g. if you draw $5 on T3, you might not want to waste it getting a Flag Bearer.

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