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Messages - Haddock

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: March 02, 2019, 05:58:24 am »
lashing = trashing, crab = lab, grain = gain, planting = ?
card (borrowing the "ing" from "gaining").  I guess that doesn't rhyme at all in an American accent.  It's a partial rhyme in many British accents.
I still don't get it. How does "plant" become "card"?
It rhymes. Vaguely.
In home counties British, plant is pronounced p-lar-nt. Which is similar to card.
It's not like there's a rule that you only have to change one letter.
Vague soundalike was good enough for me. In my defence I was extremely tired at the time and I find things very funny for no reason when I'm tired.
I laughed uncontrollably for a good 5 minutes at the gaining a lad one.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: February 27, 2019, 05:40:41 pm »
lashing = trashing, crab = lab, grain = gain, planting = ?
card (borrowing the "ing" from "gaining").  I guess that doesn't rhyme at all in an American accent.  It's a partial rhyme in many British accents.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: February 15, 2019, 07:48:10 pm »
My combine harvester broke the other day and I couldn't sow my wheat seeds.  So I went to the beach and tied up a crustacean.

Because lashing a crab is like planting a grain.

4
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 04:24:43 pm »
Other people weighing in here would be good.
Obviously mail-mi is going to insist that this isn't a scum slip  but it looks a lot like one to me and I'm gonna struggle to let it go.

I mean hey, I was voting mail-mi anyway. But y'know

5
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 04:17:49 pm »
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

How is it ludicrously unlikely? You pointed out that "scum neighborizer is something that we've talked about a lot but have never done." This is setup and mod speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but doing a scum neighborizer sounds exactly like something faust would do. I mean, he put a cult (albeit a town-aligned one) in this game.

And again, I don't currently believe that theory. It was just something that I thought could be interesting and worth looking into should space flip scum.
If space and wcd are partner scum (your words not mine), then both their claims are totally irrelevant. We no longer have any information whatsoever about their powers, and it is madness to believe any part of what they've told us about their powers, up to and especially including some imaginary qt they have together.

If you were town, this would be obvious to you. But I believe you're scum and that's why your natural instinct was to believe them about their powers.

6
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:56:27 pm »
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

7
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:32:49 pm »
OK here's the thing.
Wcd's power does not automatically make her town, but I believe the way it all fell out was towny.  So I lean town!Wcd.

Space is still not the towniest but the description of the wcd + space plan re the lalight wagon gives a very believable town narrative to that play, which was previously a strong reason for finding space scummy.

So I don't think I particularly want to lynch space any more today, and mail-mi shouldn't be asking Ash why he changed his vote, because the answer is clear, even if you don't personally believe that the claims are towny.

I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

I like my vote more and more.

8
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 01:02:52 pm »
This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

The wagon analysis is what we have both said elsewhere. We tried to create an alternate wagon out of nowhere, and then both got on it thinking that whoever else got on it were likely scum. LL did, so we were right.

We were going to try to make it a fairly towny player...Glooble was our idea, but when Space started working that angle you were not having it and she got caught in her own logic. So, I went with MM. At the time, I found him null (as did Space, I think) which was the point. Now I think he is scummy.

Swan was not as invested in Space as I was. I feel like our interaction over the course of the week was towny.
OK that makes tons and tons of sense.
As does space's explanation.
That'll do me, I'm sticking with mail-mi for now.

Glooble, what is blatantly antitown about ash's play?


PPE. Giving scum a means of qt forming with town is a thing that people often talk about but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen. You could definitely imagine a scenario where a scum player has that role as a power to give them extra influence over town.  And I don't think it would be overpowered. Just a bit weird.
In any case I am giving you town points for it.
And your joint explanation of your wagon behaviour yesterday is good enough for me.

9
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 10:55:10 am »
This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

10
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 08:33:34 am »
Direct question for you, WCD, which your post doesn't really address: when space was blocked n1 and then there was no night kill, why did this not arouse your suspicions? It really should have. Can you explain now why that fact isn't making you feel scummy about space? Or do you have such a strong town read that you feel it overrides this?

Some of this is a timing thing....I wasnít always aware of the value of the information when I had it. And some of it is honest to goodness newb understanding....I didnt actually know what jailkeeping was. I was more focused on the part where she couldnít be killed than the part where she was blocked. I assumed that there was no NK on N1 because she had been kept safe from the kill.

If we were acting together, you can be sure that Iíd be taking direction and we both know that Space is too smart me direct me to do dumb stuff. Sheíd also have made sure that I actually knew what I knew and likely what to do with that information.
Hmm.
Conversely I admit I had forgotten that JKing is just as likely to protect someone from a kill as to stop them from performing a kill.

I still want a claim from Space.

11
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 08:07:36 am »
Good morning!

Haddock- I will try to address the percieved oddness in my play. My timing of sharing the information I had about her from N1....it hadnít come up today. She hadnít said anything about thwarted attempts, nor has anyone else said much about night ations being blocked, etc. We have talked very little about DatSwan being a jailkeeper. In fact, I might be one of the only people who mentioned it in my first post today....that one that motivated people the find me scummy.

When I shared the DatSwan info about Ashes, it set off a conversation about not claiming yet. So, it certainly seemed like no one thought it was a good time to keep sharing information and there was no reason to add additional information at that time.

As to being something we cooked up....yeah, no. If we were working in concert, I donít think weíd have made the moves that both of us are having to defend ourselves for (the LL wagon). It doesnít make any sense. I also donít know why it would help me at all to share information that canít be verified. I already feel super vulnerable as a result and am worried about sharing too much. Also, Space didnít know that I was aware she was JKíed. I suppose that she has worked out now how that information became known to me.

Iíll wait to share more until she has had a chance to say her piece, but hammering her is a mistake. And her wagon deserves scrutiny, the quick ramp up and unannounced L-1 late on a Saturday are yuck, yuck, yucky.
This is a good post.

But unfortunately you explaining your motivations, while helpful, doesn't really deal with the fact that you only made this claim, corroborating Space's story about being blocked, after space claimed that. You have to see why that looks slightly fishy; and no amount of explaining your motivations can really help with that.

But I still think that in spite of my gut it is unlikely that the two of you are acting together, see my previous post.


Direct question for you, WCD, which your post doesn't really address: when space was blocked n1 and then there was no night kill, why did this not arouse your suspicions? It really should have. Can you explain now why that fact isn't making you feel scummy about space? Or do you have such a strong town read that you feel it overrides this?

12
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 07:30:11 am »
I guess I'll respond to joth's thought about a potential space-wcd team.
I am not excluding it. Indeed I have had similar thoughts. They have been defending each other more than I would tend to expect from two townies.

However:
A) let's not start trying to tie together 2 people as scum when we don't know the alignment of either of them.
B) while I find space scummy I don't find wcd particularly scummy.
C) I can definitely see this kind of defensiveness arising between two players on the basis of the sorts of things space has talked about; namely gender stuff. Tbey are two players who have both been found scummy at one time or another for their occasional feminine-coded behaviour. (to be clear I do not think that that is why I am finding either of them at all scummy this game, but it is something that has been discussed in the past)
That kind of shared experience of bias could definitely cause them to band together more than they might otherwise, regardless of their alignments.

13
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 07:05:50 am »
Crickets.
Anything, anyone?

14
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:58:54 am »
I'm not going to hammer yet.
Space isn't saying they won't claim, just that they want to think about it. We have plenty of time. I want to give them the opportunity to claim fully.

The claim doesn't look great.
I want to note for posterity the oddness with WCD. Like, WCD only announced that space was blocked after space claimed to have been blocked?
A) why wouldn't WCD bring that up earlier? It obviously points to space being scum.
B) it feels like something the two of them have cooked up, but that makes no sense whatsoever; surely the two of them would know that this was going to make space look worse, not better.

15
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:54:30 am »
Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.

@Haddock, this quote from Mail-mi should be enough to tell you that he and I are not partners. You saw how badly past!Mail-mi's misgendering of me affected my play: you even had to step in and threaten penalties as a mod if he didn't show more consideration. You saw in person how distraught I was about it at the time, and you know it almost drove me off f.ds in the beginning. There is no way I wouldn't have set him straight right off the bat in a scum QT if there was one available.
This is interesting:
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
I would be willing to exclude the possibility of both mail-mi and Space being scum based on this interaction alone.  If they have a shared QT then mail-mi already knows Space's gender.  And I don't see scum!Space being willing to fake something like this.
Did you read my posts?
I don't believe both you and mail-mi can be scum.
But I do think one of you is likely to be.

Your points re mail-mi have also already been covered by others. We agree that mail-mi is scummy. Trouble is you're scummy too.

I donít like the Space wagon at all. I think sheís town and I trust her. Letís definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I havenít had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I donít like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I donít have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
I would love to hear any reasons you have for finding space towny.

I mean that most sincerely, I'm struggling to see clearly here. 

I have found her to be incredibly consistent, and she has good reasons for the things that sheís done, especially in ways that help town. The votes on Mcmc were to encourage her to engage, and she was consistently challenging me on why I found lurking scummy. She was vocal about her LL suspicions, but used the time between when LLís wagon was almost certain and when she was lynched to continue scumhuntibg. She explored Gloobleís positions in depth in her exchange with you, pointing out flaws in logic but still concluding she was towny. It would have been easy to use the math and logic language to confuse folks enough to put a vote there. She didnít try to derail the LL lynch at all. The MM vote helped seal LLís fate. Asher nailed it correctly as a Hail Mary, and LL must have seen his intake because he self-hammered.

I also find her willingness to engage in issues of gender both true to herself and towny. Iím not sure that as scum sheíd want to be that confrontational. She challenged MM in misgendering, UoS on calling us ladies, and asking Joth to consider that my communication style might be more feminine than scummy...and in a masculine communication environment where different might be read as scum, noting that feminine patterns are the norm for some of us (me), is if use to town. If she was scum it would have been an easy way to push for me.

I just havenít found her to be shifty or flighty at all, and more helpful than not helpful. So, town.
Mmm. This helps, but consistency and helpfulness are not town traits. Especially not for Space.

Also, claiming to have a scum read on LL, but not voting, is arguably scummier than just claiming a town read. This is one of the big points driving space's lynch. You said that the votes on space aren't made of much, so I guess you disagree on that in particular?




16
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 04:34:00 pm »
I donít like the Space wagon at all. I think sheís town and I trust her. Letís definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I havenít had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I donít like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I donít have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
I would love to hear any reasons you have for finding space towny.

I mean that most sincerely, I'm struggling to see clearly here.

Also, I have just realised my mobile data is running extremely low and my flat Internet won't be up and running til Tuesday. So consider this a VLA post I guess? I can get WiFi in places to a not-great extent. And who knows my data might last. Just a warning.

17
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
« on: February 02, 2019, 03:43:38 pm »
Btw Glooble it would be great if you could put up some kind of tagline in your signature or your avatar-text, so players who wish to Ctrl+F for your posts can do so.  Ctrl-Fing for "Glooble" gets tons of false positives.

You can search for the post count. That doesn't always work perfectly, but in this case, it does.
That's what I did.  But still.

18
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 03:34:56 pm »
My reads prior to epic rereads:

Moderate-to-strong scum:
mail-mi, Space

Weak scum:
WCD (yes am taking into account Glooble's very good point, but it isn't really enough on its own - I think we underestimate newish players at our peril),
ash (If I were to ignore e's result)

Null:
Awaclus, UoS,

Once-felt-scum-and-now-feels-town-so-kinda-null-but-not-really:
joth

Slight town:
e

Moderate town:
Glooble

My reads now are the same except mail-mi moves down a slot to "weak-to-moderate scum" (above WCD and ash)

and actually e has gotten scummier from some random snippets I've seen while rereading.  Say e is in the null category now.  e is one for me to reread next, but not right now.


Strong FoS: Space
I would vote but I don't want to put them at L-1 while they're VLA-for-the-evening.


19
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
« on: February 02, 2019, 03:30:56 pm »
Glooble
circa 135 posts
Btw Glooble it would be great if you could put up some kind of tagline in your signature or your avatar-text, so players who wish to Ctrl+F for your posts can do so.  Ctrl-Fing for "Glooble" gets tons of false positives.


Ok so first serious post:
I donít love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, Iím leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your ďwagons are goodĒ comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if youíre scum.
This is maybe microscopically scummy.  Mostly because I don't agree that rushing a wagon is scummy.

Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi
"Enlightening" could be the new "Interesting".  It adds nothing and is very ambiguous.  Again some very minor scumpoints.

This is a moderately scummy post:
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was ďIím eager to hear this planĒ. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.
This kind of hairtrigger defensiveness can often come from scum.

I admit I have been jumpy and defensive since I started getting votes on me, and I know that doesnít look good. Iím pretty sure itís  because 1. Iím just an anxious person, and 2. I was given a very strange role and Iím still figuring out its implications for my playstyle.
This is a fascinating (tm) softclaim.  I lean towny on the softclaim itself; as scum do you really tie yourself down to coming up with a "weird" fakeclaim?

This was the big plan?
Towny response to the ash shot.




Then she starts the LaLight wagon, which is obviously a massively towny move.
Continues to push that wagon.


This is a cool post:
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.
It manages to simultaneously give me townvibes on Glooble, joth and ash.  (Since Lalight prompting joth to vote for ash wouldn't likely happen if joth was Lalight's scumpartner, or indeed if ash was.)


alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

This seems like kind of a weird fake claim for faust to have given a scum player. Unless faust designed the set-up semi-randomly and just used unused power roles for fake claims.

The only way I could see to corroborate this is if someone came forward and said they targeted LL with something last night. I don't know if that's a good idea though, since such a claim might help scum direct their next shot (even if said player doesn't specify what they targeted LL with, which I think it goes without saying they should not.)

We still have five days, lets take our time and get this right.
This is a townish response to Lalight's fakeclaim imo.

Note this post:

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.


The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.
and the use of "good guys" to refer to flavour.



Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.
Very towny post


CONTINUES to drive the LL wagon even at the risk of setting herself up against Awaclus.


Oh and then this post:
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
Man, Glooble and I would get on irl I think, she expresses herself in a way that seems so natural to me.
Fully understanding the probabilistic arguments, nonetheless this is absolutely how I would have presented this data in this context and it just makes sense.
The context is a discussion of Awaclus's approach to the LL wagon.  In that context it 100% makes sense to lump the instances where Awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment together in one chunk.
I disagree with the Awaclus vote because it comes from a perspective of not understanding Awa's meta.  But, man, this post rings super towny to me.


And then the Lalight lynch happens, with Glooble back onwagon.
Hmm come to think of it the move off Lalight and then back on again could be perceived as scummy in isolation.  But the move to Awaclus felt so natural to me from the perspective of someone who doesn't know Awa very well.

Heck.

Next day.

Bold of us to assume ďRadch-alignedĒ = the good guys, I suppose. Has a mod ever pulled this one before? Flavoring the game such that the protagonists of the source material are scum?

Of course Basnaaid was hardly a villain, so I guess itís more nuanced than that.
Another contentious post.
What the hell, guys?  How can anyone misread this?  Glooble even says right there: "Flavoring the game such that the protagonists of the source material are scum" is the thing Glooble is commenting on.  Why oh why would anyone see scumminess here.


Then there's a bunch of fairly irrelevant stuff.

Continues to drive Awa's lynch, which is null or maybe slightly towny?  Hard to tell without knowing Awa's alignment.  I think scum would be more inclined to go along with several veteran players saying that you are misinterpreting Awa's meta.


From then on she's just being generally helpful and contributive, including giving a very good reason for WCD to be town, which could be planned I guess, but doesn't seem likely.




This reread was partly brought to you because I promised I would look at Glooble as a response to this post of Space's:
Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong, why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.
And, well, I've done that, and can't bring myself to see the move to Awa as particularly scummy.  Glooble started the LL wagon, and moved onto Awa in a natural way and then back again in a natural way. 

No, overall I still have a decent townread on Glooble.

20
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 02:13:22 pm »
mail-mi.

105 posts.

Starts with a discussion of irl stuff and an RVS on Robz.  Nothing there.

This is a classic early mail-mi post, and for some reason I want to give it town points:

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?
That's not exactly hard to emulate I guess.




Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.
Also an RVS vote for [me], fair enough.




This is interesting:
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
I would be willing to exclude the possibility of both mail-mi and Space being scum based on this interaction alone.  If they have a shared QT then mail-mi already knows Space's gender.  And I don't see scum!Space being willing to fake something like this.



This gives me scumvibes:
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?
"Oh, yeah, I'm always seen as scummy D1, hawhaw" is a classic scum ploy to try to discredit the wagon.  I should know, I've used it a hell of a lot.



Scumvibes here too:
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
This is mail-mi's first real vote, and it's on a conf!townie.  Also note that mail-mi's post here is casually based on the assumption that joth is town, without even mentioning it, implying mail-mi might know something we don't.


In light of that, this:
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him
Looks a lot like scum fishing for reasons to push a wagon, when they don't really have good ones themselves.


Suddenly pivots round onto joth, joining the very wagon he was voting hyper for joining earlier (he states multiple times that that's his only reason for voting hyper). 
Then that doesn't work so he goes back to hyper again:
Looks like joth isnt happening right now so I'll go back to vote: hypercube
once e posts a case.



Then posts a reads list:
1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will
Think someone's already brought this up: the stance on LL sucks, the stance on hyper sucks and the stance on mcmc sucks.  Everyone else, who the hell knows - except I have a townread on Glooble so I don't like the hedge there either.



This is a genuinely towny post:
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.
and he sticks with that position even when given an opportunity to get back in there. 
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they donít mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.
Yeah that's townier stuff.
This also feels pretty genuine:
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?

i only skimmed over it, now I'm gonna go look at it.

Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I'm not sure what I think about this. On the one hand, I like it, because I think it's scummy that mcmc came back right after we started putting pressure on her. I also like the last paragraph of this case.

On the other, the hyper wagon was stalling--it wasn't growing in votes or declining in votes. It was just kinda stagnant. I also still scumread you a little bit, so I don't trust this case quite as much.

conclusion: mcmc is a little scummier to me now


Oh no
Coming from lots of people this is slightly scummy; it's probably a bit towny coming from mail-mi.


She then has a whole bunch of long posts and I don't know what to make of them. It's mostly a fight with joth, and since I definitely found joth scummy at the time I can totally understand why mail-mi pushes back there as well.   But now if I am leaning towards town!joth...  I dunno any more.



This is quite sheepy in a way I don't like:
i like glooble's thoughts about lalight and joth so far. Need to take some time to put my own thoughts together about non-joth, non-ash, and non-e people.
especially since mail-mi never actually goes on to vote Lalight, just sticking with the joth tunnel
Oof, followed by this:
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?

Again, like I said, wifom. I think LL is town and we should look elsewhere for scum
Bad-bad



Then some super-hedgey posts where he hedges on practically every player in the game:
starting my reread with hyper's claim. this post will collect my thoughts as I read.

I'm honestly not sure how much I like space's reply to it, though there's nothing I can pick out. Just a feeling.

Space also continues to push ash/e, which is a pretty unlikely thing to do. I think it makes her a little more townie.

not sure how I feel about WCD.

there's a lot of talk about hypercube's claim, none of which I find particularly towny or scummy. so that's unfortunate

I think haddock is pretty towny.

I also think glooble is pretty towny. Lalight is looking worse to me as I read

i am now out of time. we shall see what happens later today. Still comfortable with my vote where it is at, but I definitely can move it to lalight right now. Also currently might be willing to vote space if that ends up going anywhere. And Datswan, haven't seem much of her so far in my read, would be willing to vote
Okay, I'm not sure how much time I'll have right now. I'm going to go do a reread, but let me pencil down some pre-reread thoughts just in case I can't finish.

- wagon on me is bad, nobody should join it

- Space doing mathy things seems like both town!space and scum!space. Doesn't change my read on her. Although I didn't like her criticism of glooble's logic, as haddock pointed out. Maybe slight scum read?

- my read on joth has not changed so far

- I still think LL is telling the truth, though I'm gonna go reread her. I've been mulling over Ash's point about her retconning her claim, and I think he has a point.

um... that's pretty much what I'm thinking right now


The claim has been done to death but absolutely looks bad to me.


Oh also as I pass it:
I get a hard time making a case based on someone's votes for me, actually. I think both scum and town would vote me after my claim, because claim is not exactly townie. The only person acting really weird about my claim is mail-mi. This is also self-preservation, so vote: mail-mi

One more thing: if you do not lynch me, at one point I will be able to prove the claim (unless scum targets me every night just to get my lynch through which is a waste of shots, better for us as well), either declining the offer faust gave me and possibly dying? being hated? Hopefully something that will be obvious in thread or if you won't believe me on D4 that I am still alive therefore must be scum, you can lynch me then.

How about that?
This could be a desperate attempt at distancing.



mail-mi then contributes almost nothing today, except some defensiveness, and eventually this:
Day 2 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (7): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
mail-mi (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Time for some good old-fashioned wagon analysis!

On-wagon: Haddock, joth, glooble, ash, e
Off-wagon: me, awaclus, WCD, Space, Robz/UoS

So other than Joth (fully willing to admit I probably have tunnel vision) I have townreads on everyone that is on wagon. That's convenient. I would narrow onwagon scum down right now to {joth, haddock}

Off wagon are all the possibly scummy folk (Robz doesn't really count because he was gone) However scum did kill off-wagon, so that's a point to consider. Despite that, I think our lynch today should be off wagon. My current candidates are, therefore, {awaclus, WCD, space, UoS} and right now I think space comes out on top of that in scumminess, followed in some order by awaclus and WCD, then at the bottom is UoS. that is, of course, barring a reread.
Which, eh.  It's fine.  Pretty much following general consensus.



That's it.
Man, I dunno what to say.  My gut says scummy (though it said towny when I first did my catch-up reread in D1), and I see nothing to really overwrite that.  Maybe he's weak-to-moderate scum rather than moderate-strong scum.  Still scummy overall though.

21
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 01:32:22 pm »
Now for some rereads.  I definitely owe rereads of mail-mi and of Glooble, I'll start there.

My current reads go something like:

Moderate-to-strong scum:
mail-mi, Space

Weak scum:
WCD (yes am taking into account Glooble's very good point, but it isn't really enough on its own - I think we underestimate newish players at our peril),
ash (If I were to ignore e's result)

Null:
Awaclus, UoS,

Once-felt-scum-and-now-feels-town-so-kinda-null-but-not-really:
joth

Slight town:
e

Moderate town:
Glooble


Let's see if these change after rereads.


22
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 01:31:28 pm »
This post is entitled                 Reasons I'm Conflicted About Space: (Not the title of Neil Degrasse Tyson's Autobiography, I guess)

There are bigly scum narratives for various of the things that they have done.  As have been presented by me to an extent but more eloquently by Glooble.
However, as I was wandering around earlier looking for a barbershop, I kinda convinced myself that there is a town narrative as well.

Remember when I said
the probability that someone is scum is always so small that if you just follow the probability you'll never make a decision.
in direct reference to Space's approach to whoever-it-was's post? 

I could see this being what has happened.  Like: Space is a very very analytical person, almost to a fault, and mafia is definitely a game where analysis is very helpful but only up to a certain point, past which the lack of information just makes analysing basically impossible, and so if you're relying on pure analysis you can't make a decision.

I could definitely see town!Space having this "issue" (if you can call it an issue); that would explain their lack of votes in general and their reluctance to commit to an LL lynch.


It doesn't explain some of Space's more blatant hedgey defences of LL that Glooble has already pointed out, but it gives a potentially towny narrative to their behaviour in general.


I guess the tl;dr is that a lot of Space's behaviour is scummy in a vacuum (as I and others have pointed out), and I still get some scummy vibes from it all, but taking into account Space's personality generally, it might not be as scummy as it looks.


This has been Reasons I'm Conflicted About Space.

23
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 10:33:08 am »
TL;DR I'm off Awaclus for now, I still think mail-mi is scummy, WCD has done a lot of things that fit with a very particular scum narrative but they also fit pretty well with her just being a nice person who's not super confident in her mafia skills. Would probably vote though.

I also looked at Haddock and Space but nothing really jumped out at me.

Hi...the conclusion that I am actually a nice person who is not super confident in my mafia skills is incredibly accurate. And I appreciate that when you look through that lens you can make sense of how/why I am playing the way I am.

The length of my posts, for example, is tied diectly to my attempt to build community and try to provide clarity about my thought process so that yíall can help me see where I went wrong when my conclusions are wanting. I donít particularly like it that I am not yet confident in my skills...I am a grown-ass woman who can do hard things irl...but I am generally tentative when I am learning new things, so it is what it is. Hyper, mcmc, and Swan have played with with me the most for the longest, but they arenít here to attest to this pattern. Space has some insight since she was in my last game. Mcmc and iguana say that I play like Eevee, who Iíve never met.

Glooble seems to be reading me well right now. And the quote he points to where I am certain that Breq was town is illustrative. Iím still processing that unexpected turn of events and think faust is a mad genius. Role madness, indeed!

I donít think that I am playing particularly well right now because I donít have a good sense of where the scum are. I was sure that LL was scummy, but itís not reflected in my votes. I donít have a good case on mail-mi but my gut says heís scummy, but I havenít had time to read carefully and build a case.

There isnít much bottom in this game (except maybe Hyper and me). Lots of seasoned players and everyone is playing well, so Iím not sure how to go about things. I donít like that uncertain feeling....feels floundery to me. So I am reading with interest. Because there isnít much bottom and the only other inexperienced player is gone, I feel like I make an easy target, and I think that if scum decides to focus on me, that Iíll likely be lynched. I donít want to lean on my newishness, but I think itís an important piece to keep in mind as we examine where votes are accumulating and why.
What do you mean by "not much bottom"? If you mean people are not scummy, disagree.
I have a town read on almost noone at this point. Almost.

24
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 09:45:24 am »
I'm following along but not able to post properly rn. Will have more to contribute tonight.
I am considering voting space but am a little torn for reasons I will talk about when I have more time. Aside from the obvious one that we know each other irl so the postgame consequences of potentially mislynching them are tricky :P

25
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 02, 2019, 05:58:18 am »
The LL wagon. I spent the majority of the second half of D2 saying that I thought LL was scum. But if I had voted for him when I was saying that, heíd have been at L-1, and I didnít want to do that in the event that she was hated for something like that and then Iíd be the one who ended the day early. So, I continued to argue for the LL lynch, and stated my hesitancy in voting until the days end was closer.

Not wanting to vote for someone in case they get lynched is closely related to what Haddock has taken exception to me over, which is not voting early enough for someone I said I thought was scummy.
Yes, the two are related: if you read back you'll see that the start of that was my responding to e, who brought this up about WCD, and saying "yup Space's behaviour re the LL wagon is just as bad as WCD's".


Then I had one more thought which I kept note of to be posted once I could post:

"OK so I wasn't able to compile jotheonah quotes while the thread was locked. But please everyone read through jotheonah and then come back and recognise that she's been scummayyyyy.

She has been very twitchy and defensive, hugely OMGUSsy, and not particularly contributive. Also has some reads that I think are really ugly, throwing shade at towny folks for not-good reasons."

vote: jotheonah

And now to today's business.

And also here. Literally no difference. Can I please have my hated removed or one given to Haddock?
I nearly brought this up myself but figured faust was cutting me slack for having just subbed in.  (And yup that's the case apparently).


Also, could someone go into detail as to why mail-mi's claim was scummy?

Not just the claim content, but tell me why you think scum would have
1) claimed what mail-mi claimed
2) claimed it when mail-mi claimed (especially as it relates to mail-mi and LaLight being scum together)
From my perspective this really doesn't matter all that much.  Like, it's clear why the content of the claim is scummy, right?  Besides all the obvious reasons about how this is an incredibly convenient claim for them to make, on top of that:
 mail-mi has claimed to have targetted hyper D1, the day after which hyper ended up dead. 

Huh actually that makes mail-mi likelier as the cult leader or something?  With that in mind I might actually prefer my vote elsewhere.  I still haven't reread, will do so today and then consider moving my vote.

But also the "why would scum do this?" narrative is pure WIFOM, the obvious response is: "so that town will think 'surely no scum would be that dumb'"


Thatís ridiculous. Iím going to take this to pm so I donít clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
The whole forum have already had this argument I'm afraid.  I was very much on your side, but the voices who cared the most were on the other side, so this is a fairly standard rule now.

Could you link me to that discussion? I tried to find it on my own and failed.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14692.0;all

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