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Messages - ghostofmars

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Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: Today at 03:45:34 pm »
Round 2 guess: 4 - 3 - 1

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: June 01, 2020, 01:55:49 pm »
My team correctly guessed 4-3-1.

Swowl, when you reveal your team's guess can you set a deadline for the second round clues?

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: June 01, 2020, 04:47:49 am »
You can post your guess. Only starting from round 2 you need to wait until we tried to intercept.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: May 31, 2020, 01:09:58 pm »
Deadline is tomorrow  ;)

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: May 30, 2020, 01:23:58 pm »
Cold - Soft - Cut

jotheonah, bitwise please submit your guess by June 1, 1:25 pm

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: May 29, 2020, 10:37:31 am »
So that would make the teams
ghostofmars, jotheonah, bitwise
Swowl, Galzria, scolapasta
in this order. Let's use a 72h timer for the first clues, because of the weekend and I don't know how quick everyone checks the topic. That should give sufficient time, to setup the quicktopic, PM all team members, and give the first clue.

In the first round only the own team will guess, I and Swowl give the first clue.

Please submit the first clue by Mon June 1, 10:40am

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 4
« on: May 29, 2020, 10:31:52 am »
Let's get this started. I'll use Swowl suggestion to determine the teams and we can use the same to determine the turn order.

Rolled 1d1000 : 674, total 674

Rolled 1d1000 : 136, total 136

Rolled 1d1000 : 940, total 940

Rolled 1d1000 : 934, total 934

Rolled 1d1000 : 133, total 133

Rolled 1d1000 : 521, total 521

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 27, 2020, 03:27:44 am »
Thread for the next round is here.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Decrypto 4
« on: May 27, 2020, 03:26:46 am »
Decrypto is a game that usually appeals to the same people as Codenames does.

Players compete in two teams in Decrypto, with each trying to correctly interpret the coded messages presented to them by their teammates while cracking the codes they intercept from the opposing team.

In more detail, each team has their own screen, and in this screen they tuck four cards in pockets numbered 1-4, letting everyone on the same team see the words on these cards while hiding the words from the opposing team. In the first round, each team does the following: One team member takes a code card that shows three of the digits 1-4 in some order, e.g., 4-2-1. They then give a coded message that their teammates must use to guess this code. For example, if the team's four words are "pig", "candy", "tent", and "son", then I might say "Sam-striped-pink" and hope that my teammates can correctly map those words to 4-2-1. If they guess correctly, great; if not, we receive a black mark of failure.

Starting in the second round, a member of each team must again give a clue about their words to match a numbered code. If I get 2-4-3, I might now say, "sucker-prince-stake". The other team then attempts to guess our numbered code. If they're correct, they receive a white mark of success; if not, then my team must guess the number correctly or take a black mark of failure. (Guessing correctly does nothing except avoid failure and give the opposing team information about what our hidden words might be.)

The rounds continue until a team collects either its second white mark (winning the game) or its second black mark (losing the game). Games typically last between 4-7 rounds. If neither team has won after eight rounds, then each team must attempt to guess the other team's words; whichever team guesses more words correctly wins.

There is a word list generator we could use here:

1) Cluegivers generate a code using the same site, make clues and post them to the game thread. When you post a clue you also add 48h to the current time and post this as deadline for the other team to guess.
2) Guessers guess their own teams code. Starting round 2, teams simultaneously discuss about the opponent's clue and try to guess their code.
3a) If you guess the clue of your own team, you post it in the team quicktopic.
3b) If you guess the clue of the opposing team, you post it in spoilers in the game thread. When you post the guess, set a 24h timer for the opposing team to reveal the answer
4) Once all guesses are ready, the cluegivers state their partner's guess, reveal the correct codes and tokens are assigned. The second player revealing the clues posts a 48h timer for the next round and states which players should give the clues
5) Start new round with switched cluegivers.

Rules regarding missing a timer:
 - If you miss posting your Interception guess, there is no penalty, you just do not get the chance to intercept.
 - The first time you miss your Same Team guess, your team will be given an extension of 24 hours. After that, it counts as a miscommunication token.
 - If you know you will need more time, please just state so at the beginning of the round (or before) and we will deal with it case-by-case.


Did I miss anyone?

Dominion General Discussion / Re: DeepMind for Dominion
« on: May 25, 2020, 10:11:47 am »
I think people are vastly underestimating (or rather, perhaps not estimating at all and "bypassing") the number of "calculator friendly" handicaps available to a hypothetical Dominion AI.  Stuff that it's just better to have a machine do.  The machine makes railroad better than John Henry because it runs on coal.
What you are referring to is also implemented for Chess and Go. You run the game for a few steps with your current evaluation function and then assess where you stand. I would not dare to say whether this gives you more benefit in Dominion as compare to the other two games.

Dominion seems far more tricky than a deterministic abstract like chess to me. It has stochastic elements, there are far more "pieces" and every game is different. I guess that DeepMind would have to play one Kingdom a zillion times over before it could move to the next one.
In the end you have a function to project from a game state onto a given set of actions. I don't believe that there is a huge qualitative difference between the space of Dominion and the space of Go. Chess might be indeed a bit smaller.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 24, 2020, 05:53:47 am »
But you could also just start the timer with the second clue.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 24, 2020, 05:52:37 am »
I had indeed thought of a separate timer for each team to intercept. Just to avoid creating an incentive to delay posting your clue.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 22, 2020, 01:41:04 am »
- Timers will be posted as a community effort. Let's all just work together on this one to try and make it happen.
Isn't it simpler that whenever an action is taken that updates a timer the person taking that action also post the updated timer? So:
- Post clue and set timer for 48h for opponent team to intercept.
- Post interception attempt and set timer for 24h for team to guess.
- First team reveals miscommunication/interception -> no new timer.
- Second team reveals miscommunication/interception and set timer 48h for next clue from both teams. State the name of the players that should give the next clue.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 20, 2020, 02:43:50 am »

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 19, 2020, 02:08:33 am »
I would play again if we introduce some time limits. For guessing ~48h should be fine. I'm not sure what can be done about the clue giving. My feeling was that we started to over-engineer the clues, which takes a bit the fun out of guessing. Anyone has a clever idea?

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 18, 2020, 10:45:14 am »

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 18, 2020, 09:31:18 am »

So for fear, I thought that if I could use a last name of a well-known horror author, my team would get it and the other team would not. So who's more well-known than Stephen King?

Militia for minute, of course, because of the Minute Men.
I should have seen the connection to Stephen King, but I did not know about the Minutemen before.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 18, 2020, 01:55:27 am »
Thanks everyone for playing.

Congrats to scolapasta and jotheonah.

What I found interesting is that over the course of three games this drifted from where you could have an idea what the other team is thinking to winning by screwing up less :P

I had already thought about my next clue, so if you want you can try to solve
Virus - Syringe - Pharmacy
before reading our thread to figure out what is correct.

The only code word I feel I have any idea about is 1 - Marine.

@jtotheonah: Can you reveal what you wanted to hint at with your last clue?

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: May 15, 2020, 07:22:24 am »
@bitwise: What did your team guess for your clue?

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: April 30, 2020, 03:28:02 am »
Both teams nearly intercepted.

jotheonah and bitwise, your turn.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: DeepMind for Dominion
« on: April 29, 2020, 03:51:00 am »
I guess I fell for the psychological fallacy that you consider the things you know more about as having more depth than things you know less about (relevant xkcd Of course there are also boring bit flips in Dominion (Copper in-the-trash or not-bought).

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Decrypto 3
« on: April 28, 2020, 06:00:54 am »
Our guess for your clue is 4 - 3 - 2

Dominion General Discussion / Re: DeepMind for Dominion
« on: April 28, 2020, 04:15:56 am »
I think at this point, there's just so. many. cards. that even a halfway competent AI is beyond the scope of a hobby project. There's just a lot of weird interactions that aren't hard to program but take time. Just implementing the rules of all the cards - and getting them to work right - is nontrivial. It's even more work than it seems because they have to be implemented in a way that they can be manipulated and reasoned about, even for simple internal questions like "if I play this card, will it trigger a reshuffle".
Sorry, I have not been clear. I was only talking about the AI part. Implementing all of Dominion would be a much longer task. If I were to attempt something like a Dominion AI, I would do a proof of principle with a selected set of cards (probably you want to some events or landmarks, too). Then you might want to talk to Stef to see if you can realize the same with the actual game.

By the way, this thread led me down a rabbit hole of reading about how AlphaGo and AlphaZero work. I don't really know what resources are the best, but it was fun to google and read about, I would recommend anyone who thinks thinking about AI is cool go down that rabbit hole for a bit.

Really puts into perspective that for a real AI, questions like how to decide "BM or Engine" or "What card to topdeck with Harbinger" just aren't the sort of questions the AI designer is going to be thinking about, it's all about how to set up the problem so that ML techniques can be applied to learn the answer to *all* those decisions in the same way.
Well there is also the aspect that they wanted to show that it can be done without any guidance. I don't know if in general the approach to supply no input at all is the best. Of course, games are also the best case scenario, because the evaluation function is well defined (you either win or you don't).

At first I wanted to add something about how the state of a Dominion game is much more difficult to describe than that of Go, but I'm not so sure anymore. There are around 200 cards in any given game and you need 4~5 bits to store where a card is. In addition ~100 bits to store the kingdom information. For Go you have a 19*19 board with 3 bits per field (empty, white, black). So I would get 900~1100 bits for Dominion and ~720 for Go.
But then the decision space of Dominion is much smaller. For every given game state there are probably less than ~30 possible choices whereas for Go you start of with 361 choices.

It is probably still harder to learn than Go though, because one bit flip in the game state (say replacing Pawn with Chapel) seems to have a much more severe impact than replacing one stone on the Go board (full disclosure, I did not play Go enough to check that this is true).

Dominion General Discussion / Re: DeepMind for Dominion
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:39:52 pm »
Actually the decision whether to play engine or BM is probably easier than I thought. You just let the AI play a few games against each other and its instance which performs the best on average gets to decide. That still doesn't solve the problem how to come up with a good engine player in the first place.

I wonder how the AI could deal with different setups. Starcraft has hidden information but the options are identical in all games. A self teaching AI might have a hard time to meta-learn (judge Kingdoms).
Well ultimately every card is a source of a limited set of resources (Action, Card, Buy, $, VP, ...). So the AI just needs to learn what the expected gain of playing a certain card is and cards with similar expected gains can replace each other.

What I am most worried about would be play decisions like which card to topdeck with Harbringer or which Pawn choices you should take. The other thing that will be hard is exceptional cards that warp how the game is played (Tournament, Possession).

Dominion General Discussion / Re: DeepMind for Dominion
« on: April 27, 2020, 05:39:32 am »
I guess it comes down to what level of AI you expect. I think a hobby project could come up with an AI that is challenging to the average Dominion player, perhaps even to the average player on this forum.

Coming up with an AI that is challenging to the best players would be considerably harder and something of the level like AlphaZero (consistently better than the best professional players) is nothing you can do without professional support.

Furthermore, I think supervised learning might give you results faster, because you narrow the scope what an AI has to learn. You could e.g. have a categorizing AI judge whether an engine is viable and then have two separate AIs for Engine and Big Money. All these additional constraints will reduce the learning time, but also lead to a weaker AI because it can not explore the whole space of the game.

One final point: Because the Dominion ruleset still frequently changes, you need to be careful not to paint yourself in a corner. If a new Way to play the game is released, how do you ensure your AI can cope?

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