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Messages - Superdad

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: No more torturer for us!
« on: April 16, 2012, 11:15:41 am »
Indeed. I saw the board and thought... okay, they hate cursers, but torturer is optional - so there's that. Plus there's chapel to clean them out.

I kept telling them to take a curse, at least the first one, but they refuse. They HATE curses. I'm glad for it though.. the moment was priceless, and I'm sure we'll be talking about it at family dinners for a LONG time.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: No more torturer for us!
« on: April 16, 2012, 10:03:15 am »
I was playing a game with my wife and my in-laws (we're all very close, and extremely competitive), and we had a chapel/village/torturer board. This was the first time they'd ever seen torturer, and I was the only one that bought them. By turn 7 I was double-torturing every single turn, and they all refused to take curses (they HATE cursers). We played for 2 more turns, until I started triple torturing every turn, and they realized that they would never get another turn again (they refuse to take the curse haha). My father-in-law was so upset that he threw his deck on the table while cursing profanities at great volume, and the deck literally exploded into a mushroom cloud of copper. Oh boy, we had a good laugh about it a week later (this weekend).

That card will never get seen again at my kitchen table, but that game was legendary and will go down in the history books, never to be forgotten.

The funny thing is, you have to know my father-in-law. He teases and laughs at everyone when he wins. We actually find it all hilarious. If he wins a game, he will actually stand up on the kitchen chair, and point and laugh at all of us, with this hilarious cackling laugh. It's priceless. So when he mushroom-clouded his dominion deck, we all literally couldn't breathe for 10 minutes, because we were in tears laughing so hard.

Dominion General Discussion / Any news on the iphone app?
« on: December 23, 2011, 11:38:52 am »
There was a bunch of talk a while back about an iphone app being developped, similar to the ascension iphone app. Is this still being pursued?

Dominion Articles / Re: Upgrade
« on: September 09, 2011, 08:45:30 am »
I actually have a severe disdain for upgrade, probably to a fault. You say that upgrade does not affect your hand much, but it actually does - you play with a 4-card hand everytime you upgrade. What do you get for that? Increase the value of the upgraded card by 1. So you minion-attack yourself for such a tiny benefit. How many times do you need to reshuffle/use that upgraded (+1) card to offset the fact that you played with a 4-card hand? That entirely depends on what you are upgrading to. Now consider the fact that you may upgrade that card again the next time you draw it. And the next time. 8 turns later, you are severely behind because you've played half the game with 4 card hands, and all you've accomplished is you've turned an estate into a gold over 4 consecutive upgrades, and you haven't even used the upgraded cards yet in the whole upgrading process. Also consider the opportunity cost of purchasing the upgrade itself.

I see upgrade as a niche card to facilitate access to kingdom-defining cards, most notably (for sure) is grand market. That being said, 99 times out of 100 I'd rather remake in my hand, simply for the fact that I can trash two coppers and thin faster. Upgrade is too slow for what it tries to do, even though the cantrip nature tries to pull the wool over your eyes, trying to sell you on efficiency.

I am in no way a fan of upgrade whatsoever. I find it a card that in the vast majority of cases is nothing but a distraction.

Game Reports / Re: Finally a mega-turn!
« on: August 29, 2011, 09:15:31 am »
I think overall you played it pretty well. 

KC/Bridge/Goons wants to have zero other clutter in the deck. You did well picking up the salvager early. Your opponent got one also, but then he started doing weird things like buying money. This deck doesn't want any money junking up it's draws. It only wants KCs, Goons, Bridges, and smithies.

I think a few errors could have led to a quicker game, such as this turn:

   --- Jimmmmm's turn 15 ---
   Jimmmmm plays a King's Court.
   ... and plays a Bridge.
   ... ... getting +1 buy, +$1, and reducing all costs by $1.
   ... and plays the Bridge again.
   ... ... getting +1 buy, +$1, and reducing all costs by $1.
   ... and plays the Bridge a third time.
   ... ... getting +1 buy, +$1, and reducing all costs by $1.
   Jimmmmm plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
   Jimmmmm buys a Bridge.
   Jimmmmm buys a Bridge.
   Jimmmmm buys a Salvager.
   Jimmmmm buys a Salvager.

You shouldn't have been buying salvagers anymore, those salvagers should have been more bridges, and smithies.

After your first Salvager purchase, I'd have gone entirely for bridges then 1-2 smithies, then all bridges and KC from there.

Overall you played it pretty well, except for buying too many salvagers.

A question to keep the discussion going....

Is it even worth going goons here? Would you go for the goons, or would you just go for KC/Bridge/Smithy and hope to buy 8 provinces in 1 turn to end the game. I'm thinking you could do it sometime around turn 15-18 with a focusses non-goons strategy?

I.e. open Salvager, get a KC, get 1-2 bridges, get 1-2 Smithies, then buy KC > Bridge

Game Reports / Re: Vault-ing towards Colonies
« on: August 29, 2011, 08:57:03 am »
If he is pirate shipping, I don't think you want to bishop coppers away to allow him to hit your bigger money easier - especially not since you are running a vault strategy anyways. If you opened vault and he opened pirate ship, I think you should be fist-pumping, because that's a pretty poor counter to vault in my opinion.

I also think one or two warehouses are okay here, because while your vault turn will have 1 less card, you will be cycling through your deck (i.e. vaulting) more often. I think the net effect at least cancels, and probably leans towards cycling being more important. Not to mention the warehouses keep you from stalling to greening later. With both warehouse and vault, you will be very resistant to greening.

As soon as you have 1 gold (after your first vault), I would have picked up a warehouse or two on any turn with $4 or less, hopefully getting 2 warehouses. I'd then basically just play straight money here, getting a 2nd vault if your deck starts growing and you hit a $5 midgame, then using warehouses and vaults to cycle the deck super quickly, almost acting like pseudo-trashing.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Game help: racing to Goons
« on: August 29, 2011, 08:40:09 am »
You aren't going to get a crazy goons deck on this board, because there's no trashing, but even a decent goons deck may be good enough here. Anytime I play goons I look for two things, in order of importance: Villages and Trashing. There's no trashing, but there are two options for villages: City and Native Village. Everyone has talked about cities so far, but I think that's the 2nd best option here.

If you are going for a goons engine, you are probably better off going with native villages than Cities.

I think you could probably open Coppersmith/Silver here, get a quick goons. Use that goons to get tons of native villages. Use the first few native village turns to get more goons.

If native villages go, then I'd pick up cities. If your opponent is head-diving into cities, then I'd leave at least two NV on the board and deplete Great Halls. Then 3-pile with NV/GH/City with your goons VP advantage.

Basically I'd spam Native villages here. They work good with both goons AND coppersmith.

Game Reports / Re: why i hate black market
« on: August 26, 2011, 04:06:30 pm »
Seems to me the problem was completely independent of Black Market.

Saboteur is usually a sub-par card, but it is nasty when Kings Courted.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Compare the Villages
« on: August 26, 2011, 03:46:17 pm »
I think the key thing that Uni/Wharf decks have problems with is money. Very quickly the deck draws itself, and buying more wharfs isn't actually doing anything for you. In addition, you naturally tend to have lower money than big money wharf decks, since turns are spent buying the potion and more universities on potion turns.

I think to be worth it, you really need to be able to also gain a money generating action. Also, it's very possible the strategy is too slow for province games. It may not be too slow, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were. 

/edit: ninja'd by guided

Game Reports / Re: I Luck Into a Win Against a Clearly Superior Opponent
« on: August 26, 2011, 03:28:53 pm »
I agree with WW. I think that possession is a card that heavily favours a more skilled player. Sure you may possess his stronger deck for a turn or two, but he's playing with that deck for all other turns... and he's setting his deck up to be as possession-proof as possible.

Where possession really is a frustrating card is against equal-skilled opponents. In this situation, the game is likely to be entirely dictated on how strong the possession turns are.

I.e. One player possess a goons, 4 green card hand. The other player possesses a KC, Expand, 3x Platinum hand.   (/aside, I wouldn't advocate buying expand on possession boards!)

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Compare the Villages
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:08:10 pm »
It's been said a few times but mining village has two main uses for me:

1) To hit an early gold... kind-of like a cantrip-feast for gold, but taking up your buy for the turn also.
2) To act kind of like a salvager... and in this way it's best if you have a source of +buy. Trashing 4 mining villages on your last turn allows you to double-province, much in the same way that salvager will trash a gold on the last turn to hopefully buy double province (or at least province + duchy) for the win.

For Native Village, I don't like it as much as others. I probably undervalue it myself. I find myself using native villages in combo decks that want to have a massive turn. I like it with cards like coppersmith, and bank in combination with a +buy card... anything that gets better in big-hands. I use them as a combo card to buy 2+ provinces in a single turn for a big bang finish.

I find people buy NV way too often though, and they end up with this uncontrollable trashing non-cantrip pseudo village that actually doesn't do anything for them.

Game Reports / Re: Chapel / Bishop
« on: August 26, 2011, 11:57:53 am »
The thing to remember though is that you are only going to be gaining 5 vp per turn. This actually isn't that much.

This strategy lives or dies on it's ability to end the game quickly (like, by turn 15 or so). If you are way behind and the opponent is very susceptible to greening, I suppose going for 4VP per turn, every turn, could possibly get you back in, provided that there will be no way he can purchase the last province.

For example, if I start with this strategy and my opponent is already at 3 provinces by turn 9, I could see potentially trying to win this long-game in this way. I.e. Force him to buy all 8 provinces. Most Big Money decks can hit all 8 provinces by around turn 24 or so, giving them 51 points, assuming no duchies and still having 3 estates in their deck.

You can start trashing golds each turn by turn 8 (which is your first gold-trash), and you probably already have 4-5 VP so far. Gaining 4 per turn for 16 turns gives you 64-69 VP (depending if you bishop'd your estates, or chapelled them all).

It would be a close race. If you pick up provinces, you are allowing him to end earlier than turn 24ish. If he picks up duchies, he may risk pushing turn 24 ending out to turn 25+, but he gained 3 extra VP.

Some strategies are not as succeptible to greening (venture, vault, hunting party), so if he took an early province lead on those strategies, I would say that you should still rush the Province quick-ending, because he'll buy all 8 provinces by turn 20 or so, not turn 24+.

TL:DR - I'd only recommend trashing gold and extending the game if you went down VERY early something like 3 or 4 to 1, and if his deck is succeptible to greening.

Game Reports / Re: Bank over King's Court?
« on: August 26, 2011, 11:19:37 am »
More specifically to elaborate on Bank... I'm really not a big fan of it myself. I'll buy it, sure, but I will pass on it quite frequently. Things that will make me buy bank:

+Buys on board
Heavy drawing (i.e. tactician)
Good alternate treasure that I will be filling my deck with: most notable is probably Venture, Hoard and Harem

I find people buy bank at really weird times, such as in province games without any +buys. They then get a $14 hand and buy a single province with it.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Taking a $5 card over an early gold
« on: August 26, 2011, 10:46:12 am »
For venture it's actually dead-simple... if the average value of treasure in your deck is greater than 2, you buy venture. Always. So if I have 1 copper, 2 silvers, 2 golds in my deck, Venture is a better buy than gold. For the case of this discussion, the probability of that happening on an early $6 is zero. but for midgame, if I have an average treasure value of more than 2, then I'm buying venture over gold. 

/edit: For all cases there are exceptions... some possible exceptions to this would (maaaaybe) be if I already had a Salvager, Apprentice, Expand, Remodel, or other cards that care about the actual cost of the card. I still think it would be close enough that I'd take the venture there though.

/edit2: Ninja'd below by Thisisnotasmile. Another good exception is if you are drawing your entire deck each turn.

For Lab, I would certainly buy Lab over gold if I have something like Montebank in my deck. Heck I'd probably take lab over gold if I have militia in my deck. I value using the attack more frequently to mess up my opponent higher than me having slightly higher buying power. I could see that as being a mistake, most notably with militia, but if it is, it's probably REALLY close. I.e. I'm not giving that much edge away.

Game Reports / Re: Bank over King's Court?
« on: August 26, 2011, 08:51:44 am »
Not sure I agree with this. I'll agree that Cities aren't at their best with only one pile depleted, but that's obvious. However, I don't agree that you should not go for Cities unless 2 piles are definitely going to be empty. Do you think that Laboratory is a never-buy card? (I'm going to assume you just said no) Then why would a level 2 City, a strictly superior card, be a never-buy?

kn1tt3r above echoes my comments on this. Sure, 1-pile cities (2 cards/2 actions) ARE strong. If they started that way, then for sure I'd say go for it.

The problem is, if someone dives headfirst into cities and the opponent doesn't follow, and there is no likelyhood of a pile emptying before cities, then the city-diver is looking at having $5 villages for a LONG time. Once the city finally empties, sure it's great to have an upgraded Lab for $5, but until then, your deck is pretty terrible.

So no, I don't consider Lab to be bad, but I also don't equate Cities to $5 labs + 1 action, because against a good player they will spend a LONG time being $5 villages.

Don't get me wrong, on the right board, cities can be a linchpin card and whoever wins the city-split will likely win the game. I just don't think it's true on this board, since there is no other pile that is likely to empty quickly to power them up very fast. Now... if both people were fighting over fishing villages at $3 to get access to cities, then that is an entirely different story.

@Jimmmmmm, I apologize if my earlier responses were cheeky in any way. I did not intend them to be so. I quite value your posts on these boards.

Game Reports / Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« on: August 25, 2011, 08:56:46 am »
michaeljb, I mean the full version with the full lock - militia or especially Goons included.
whoops, overlooked that part. The only thing I can think of that could fight back would be an engine involving some Caravans and/or Wharves that was running before the lock went down, so you could still do things on your turn.

You still wouldn't be able to do much. Caravan would draw 1 card? A few would draw 2 or so. You really aren't buying anything with that, and the pin deck is still trashing 3 cards of yours a turn. The only way you could escape is if you already have points (bishop/monument), and you were somehow able to quickly empty 3 piles (probably curses, estates and something else).

Outside of those extremely small examples, if this strategy is on the board, it will likely be a race to get to your 5-card deck the fastest. First one there, wins.

Game Reports / Re: Bank over King's Court?
« on: August 25, 2011, 08:49:57 am »
And also that King's Court was not the dominant card on the board, which it clearly wasn't, since the guy who bought none beat the guy who bought 3.

This is the sort of thing I was responding to. I don't think you can make that kind of conclusion. It's very likely that KC is the dominant strategy on this kingdom, and just because "the guy who bought none beat the guy who bought 3", doesn't mean anything. You two could have been playing the 2nd and 3rd best strategies - but that doesn't mean the 1st (best) strategy isn't KC.

... when I inevitably started to fall behind early on; and even what is widely considered to be the best card in the game is still very much dependent on what else is in your deck.

Now this I can get behind. Even if KC is the most dominant strategy on the board, if it doesn't fit your deck, it doesn't fit your deck. If the game ended on 1-pile-strong cities (like you said, the 2nd pile to empty was colonies), then I agree, copying more cities really isn't going to help you as much as getting more money (bank). I just assumed this thread was intended to be deeper than that, because that is kind of obvious.

As an aside, I have a feeling this game was misplayed by both people. If you dive headfirst into cities, you should only do so if you can logically empty a 2nd pile quickly so that your cities are strong. Ideally you do this by getting at least a 6-4 city split, then forcing the 2nd pile with some kind of cheap card you can tolerate having many of (say fishing villages, peddlers, worker village, pawn, etc).

If you can't empty the 2nd pile before the major colony/province pile, then you shouldn't go for cities. I have a feeling this is what happened in this game?

All that being said, I think the only conclusion you can reach with this game is that if your deck is already drawing itself, copying more drawing cards isn't as good as just buying more money. But that conclusion should be inherently obvious.

Game Reports / Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« on: August 24, 2011, 02:36:42 pm »
The above post is a valid post. The others posted above aren't true pin games.

When you don't have either goons or militia, the strategy can be countered by saving your own masquerade and passing him junk (and more importantly, disrupting his 5-card deck.

However, with miltia in the mix, it's a race to see who gets the 5-card deck first, afterwhich the other person is pinned.

Dominion Articles / Re: Pace
« on: August 24, 2011, 02:30:16 pm »
Indeed, slow-playing just for the sake of annoying someone... in a game where nothing is on the line and nothing is to be gained by such an immature action... and posting like it is a "good idea" ...

I can only retort with one thing:;topicseen

(please go find another game to play. You may enjoy Pokémon)

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What would make you go Village/Smithy?
« on: August 24, 2011, 02:02:29 pm »
Indeed. My comment was not so much to go coppersmith instead of bank on a board with both, but rather that coppersmith may be another card that could push me to a village/smithy deck.

Game Reports / Re: Chapel / Bishop
« on: August 24, 2011, 11:49:19 am »
Oh and actually, for the colony game, have you considered just going for the provinces? 45 points in 15-16 turns is going to be tough to beat, even if they're being accelerated by your bishopping. Seems that the big way to disrupt this is... almost any attack, 'cause nearly every one sorta derails it. Exceptions are cutpurse (which still might slow it a turn or two), Jester (which does nothing once you're set up), thief/pirate ship (which could hurt if they hit at the exact wrong time), and probably a couple others that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. But handsize attacks and cursers (and ambassador) will really throw a monkey wrench.

Indeed, I've mentioned this before in many other bishop threads, but I find it's almost always better to just drain provinces in colony games. I have no idea why you would take so much longer to get up to colonies instead of just draining provinces.

Game Reports / Re: Bank over King's Court?
« on: August 24, 2011, 11:29:59 am »
I'd be careful drawing that conclusion from this game. First, it's one sample, and in that sample your opponent played a tournament/province game in a kingdom with colonies. I don't think you can conclude that Bank> KC based on that.. it makes no logical sense. All you can conclude from the discussion above is that this is not a board where you want to play tournament/province in a colony game.

It would also be important to know how the 2nd pile was emptied. I have a feeling that your opponent misplayed here. I think cities are very easy to counter. If you are losing the city race, you can get two piles low enough such that the city player will not have a single turn with 2-pile cities. If your opponent emptied the 2nd pile, then all conclusions from the game are invalid, because he made a colossal mistake.

I think the biggest reason that Bank may (*may*) be better than KC here has everythign to do with hoard, which wasn't even mentioned in the dicussion. I think the main reason KC may not be the best strategy is because of no trashing, and the fact that Bank has hoard to support it. However, City and Rabble on the board, I don't know if I'd conclude that the best strategy isn't a KC strategy. KC'd Rabbles can be devastating, and is certainly underestimated.

Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Remodel
« on: August 24, 2011, 11:10:12 am »
I think there are two important parts with remodel.

1) Never buy a lot of them (1 is most often the correct number)
2) It is best when there are good cards at all dollar values. This is important, because remodel is best when your hands are flexible.

To expand on point #2:

Lets say a "good" kingdom is:
$2 Pawn, or hamlet, or cellar
$3 Silver is good enough here, but better $3's like fishing village would help.
$4 Caravan (for example)
$5 Laboratory (for example)
$6 Gold is good enough here
$7 Expand (for example)

a) If there is no good $2:
Now your hands of CCCCR are really bad. You'd rather have a copper instead of that remodel so you could buy a lab, and would certainly rather have bought a silver so you could gain a gold here.

a) If there is no good $3:
Unlikely, there is always at least silver

a) If there is no good $4:
This is obviously bad because you cannot remodel estates into a $4. You have to remodel them into a $3 (silver), which is still okay, but slower nonetheless. Possibly the worst thing about not having a good $4 is that you'll fall into the trap of remodelling an estate into a remodel (i.e. the trap of gaining too many remodels). This is exaggerated even further if the good $5 is a terminal action, since you'll clog yourself. If the $5 is a lab, gaining a second remodel isn't the end of the world, but gaining more than 2 remodels is probably a net-negative.

However, this is also vitally important for another reason. Remodel decks will play with 3-card hands on remodel turns, and those 3 cards generally tend to produce $4 quite often (i.e. remodel/estate/copper/copper/copper or remodel, estate, estate, silver, copper).

Having no good $4 to buy (besides remodel itself) is crucial. For this reason, a good $4 is probably the single most important thing, even more than a good $2.

a) If there is no good $5:

This is critical, because of a few reasons. First, you cannot remodel silvers into a solid $5, and remodel decks will buy quite a few silvers with their 3-card hands.

Secondly, your remodel turns that produce $5 with three cards (silver/silver/copper) in the midgame are that much worse.

Imagine a hand like Remodel, Estate, Silver, Silver, Copper. If there was a good 4 and 5, you could remodel the estate into caravan and buy a lab. If there is no good $5, you are forced gaining two caravans, which again, it's not terrible, but it's weaker.

You can always buy duchies here, but that's generally sub-par at this point (midgame) of the game.

a) If there is no good $6:
Again, gold is good enough here.

a) If there is no good $7:
Now you cannot remodel your $5s into Expands. For example, having the ability to take a Gold/Gold/Silver/Lab/Remodel hand and buy a province and expand is pretty huge, especially on a board wihtout +buy. These types of hands will start popping up in the endgame, and your $5 is not going to help you do anything, since you already have $9, so gaining value out of it here is great.  That expand you just gained will allow you to gain a virual +buy on this board that could be critical to reaching a 5-3 province split.

If the $7 is a kings court, a king's courted remodel is pretty darn solid for obvious reasons, especially on the last turn of the game where you can potentially gain 3 VP cards in 1 turn by converting your lesser treasure/actions into VP.

Access to a good $7 is nowhere near as important as having a good option at 2, 4 and 5, but it's still a factor.

For colony games, without a good $7, you cannot remodel a $7 into a platinum. But then again, I think that remodel is going to be sub-par in colony games.

In summary, I think the thing that remodel wants the most is to have solid options at each dollar value, so that your hands are as flexible as possible. This is mostly important in the $2, $4 and $5 range (less so for $3, $6 and $7).

And again, this is for two reasons... firstly, because it's important to be flexible on what you remodel something into (to give all your remodels flexibility on both what they gain and in what they remodel). But also secondly, to be flexible on what you spend your 3-card turns buying. If there's no good $4 card, and you draw Remodel, Estate, Copper, Silver, Copper, you have a sub-part turn where you are likely gaining two $3s, whereas if you bought silver instead of your remodel here, you could have gained a gold instead.

Gaining two quality $4s here beats gaining a gold (taking into account not drawing the estate any more), but gaining two $3's is worse (at least I would think, even considering losing the estate from your deck). Regardless, gaining two $4's is maximizing the power of the strategy, so being flexible and having good options, especially at 2, 4, and 5 is super important for remodel.

Game Reports / Re: Trade Route for Duke/Dutchy
« on: August 24, 2011, 10:17:12 am »
On Turn 14 my opponent buys the 1st Province and starts the VP race. 

When reading this I was thinking... wow this is really late.

but then has a questionable Turn 17 buying Gold + Village. 


Turn 19: Gold & Grand Market,

Unfortunately, I don't think that any conclusions can (should) be drawn from this game. Simple Big Money would have been better (or, really, more to the point, better buying "rules").

Turn 14 is really late for the first province, but he has an extremely strong deck. However, for him to miss two province turns on turn 17 and 19 to further empower his deck just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I see this kind of game all the time in casual settings, where people polish their shiny deck (and get enjoyment from doing so), but aren't really playing to win.  I know a friend of mine would rather lose, but have one massive 4-province turn. He gets enjoyment from having a huge combo turn, even if he lost the game, and he'd do that every game, even if he knows ahead of time that he'll lose the game. He's the type of person where, there is 1 province left, he gets $5 and buys a laboratory instead of a duchy.

Unfortunately this specific game cannot lend itself to any concrete conclusions about the strategies used.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What would make you go Village/Smithy?
« on: August 24, 2011, 10:07:32 am »
How does the addition of a coppersmith affect things? I would think that coppersmith would be a good compliment to smithy/village.

Typically smithy/village fails because it spends all it's tempo buying smith/village and all that combo does is draw a bunch of copper. So what if you get a coppersmith or three and turn those coppers you have drawn into serious buying power?

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