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Messages - cluckyb

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: New Promo at Origins...
« on: June 23, 2014, 07:24:36 pm »
It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The wording of Prince is a bit tricky, but it says stop playing it if you are unable to set aside the card. Island is not set aside by Prince. Island sets itself aside.

Let's look at this like a typical action.
Smithy
Play Prince: set aside Smithy
Next turn: Prince plays Smithy
Cleanup: Smithy is still in play, Smithy is set aside by Prince

Now, here is Island
Play Prince: set aside Island
Next turn: Prince Plays Island
Island sets aside itself and another card
Cleanup: Island set itself aside so Prince lost track of it, therefore, Prince can not set it aside.

Sure. But the wording specifically says "set aside this turn", rather than indicating it was set aside by the prince. Seems to me that any valid way it was set aside should be good enough going off just the wording of the card.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: New Promo at Origins...
« on: June 23, 2014, 07:03:03 pm »
It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: New Promo at Origins...
« on: June 23, 2014, 06:20:52 pm »
Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat

You cleanup, and Prince fails to set it aside.  You do not get to keep playing it.

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: New Promo at Origins...
« on: June 23, 2014, 06:11:07 pm »
Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: New Promo at Origins...
« on: June 23, 2014, 03:25:26 pm »
Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

6
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: What Card Am I?
« on: February 28, 2014, 05:18:37 pm »
Ozel's lack of posting in this thread makes me sad  :(

7
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles
« on: February 13, 2014, 02:41:01 pm »
I have two treasure cards in hand, no cards in play, my discard or my deck. I play those two cards and nothing else for $8. One of them is not a Platinum. What two cards have I played?

Diadem and Copper after having played (and trashed) 4 mining villages?

8
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Edge Case Challenge: Drawing a Blank
« on: January 30, 2014, 03:30:10 pm »
The player whose turn is using a Farming Village / Torturer engine. You see him draw a blank Torturer, and then he plays a live Torturer. You have three cards in hand that you want to keep so you know to gain the curse rather than discard.
Why would he play that live Torturer?

Edgecaseception:
Because he also has Goons in hand which he wants to play rather than Torturer. Playing the live Torturer first he makes you believe gaining a Curse would save a card of your hand when it doesn't.

Well clearly if he reveals the live Torturer that is what he is trying to do so I shouldn't gain the curse! Unless he only wants me to think he has a Goons when really he forgot to play a village before hand and is out of actions but I'm too busy second guessing his move to notice

9
Outpost gives 3 cards in hand.
But Outpost is not allowed to be in the duration area...

So, how many Wharves and Caravans have I Processioned, giving me their +cards while removing them from play?
And how many Processions are in your duration area in that case?

None.

I'll start the bidding at +61 cards at the start of your turn, with no cards in your Duration area (i.e., in play):

Play a stack of 19 Processions. (10 of them are Bands of Misfits.) With these 19 Processions, play 10 Wharves (for +4 cards each), 8 Caravans (+2 each), and one Tactician (+5). 18 of the 19 Processions, and all the Duration cards, are trashed. The last Procession is not trashed, but it is discarded during cleanup because the card it was used on was not itself a Duration card.)

(is this the solution you had in mind?)

24 more possible if you kingscourt some procession first and play the 2 remaining caravans and 10 havens.
Dont know if that is possible with all 10 but the number should go up a little.


Also another +9 from all the Horse traders you set aside after the other guy played a bunch of council rooms then an attack

10
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Edge Case Challenge: Drawing a Blank
« on: January 24, 2014, 04:18:54 pm »
The player whose turn is using a Farming Village / Torturer engine. You see him draw a blank Torturer, and then he plays a live Torturer. You have three cards in hand that you want to keep so you know to gain the curse rather than discard.

11
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Online-Only Cards
« on: January 16, 2014, 04:10:48 pm »
Parade: Action, $2

+$2
Trash this and gain the cheapest action card costing more than this, if there is one. Put a Parade Sticker on that card.

When you play a card with a Parade Sticker, trash it and gain the cheapest action card costing more than it. Transfer the Parade Sticker to the gained card.

Stickers are a pretty cool online only idea. Could also do something like:


Sharehold: Action/Victory: $5

Reveal a card from your hand. Put a Sharehold Sticker on it then return it to your hand.

Worth 1 VP for every 3 cards in your deck with a Sharehold sticker (rounded down)



or

Investor. Action $4

Reveal an action card from your hand. Put an Investor Sticker on it then return it to your hand.

When you play an action card, +$1 per Investor sticker on it.


or


Jinx. Action/Attack $4

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it is an action or treasure card, put a Jinx sticker on it. In either case, they return it to the top of their deck.

When a player plays a card with a Jinx sticker they may trash it. If they do not, they gain a curse.

12
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« on: January 09, 2014, 01:19:09 pm »
The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.

The first half is all reasonable and cool. The issue is that there aren't any great solutions beyond reaching out to RGG.

But saying "I don't see how creating a free version of your game for people to be able to play without giving you money isn't ripping you off" is completely ridiculous. Sure you can try and argue that a free online implementation causes more physical sales, but it isn't your IP so isn't your call to make.

13
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cave - secret vp card
« on: January 06, 2014, 01:51:41 pm »
Similar mechanic to Secret Plot from the Intrigue round of the treasure chest design contest. That one gave you points for cards other people didn't hide rather than straight up cards for points stashed which makes it play differently but there is at least a lot of discussion about the idea on that thread.

To get around the ruins problem, you could maybe use "priced" instead of "named"? Might be too hard to make it worth three then.

14
Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for

There aren't a ton of Potion cards on the board, and you already have one card that's solely dedicated to getting them.  Also, other than Vineyard, there's no VP potion cost, so "Remodel-into-Potion" is going to become irrelevant.  The result is a card you won't get until the 3rd shuffle, that will soon become useless.

What do you like about Research?

I like research for the same reason I liked the smithy variants. Unless you count transmute, there isn't a remodel variant in Alchemy. Even without the "or $1P" the "remodel two cards at once, add the cost" is interesting enough for further consideration

15
any idea why these cards seemed to get less discussion than the Alchemy ones?

Looks like these were the top five:

Quote
Dancer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. Take a Coin token. You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each token you paid, +1 Action.

When you gain this, take a Coin token.

Still think its strength is affected too much by the existence of other cards that give you coin tokens.

Quote
Barber
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Discard any number of cards and take a Coin token per card discarded; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +1 Card per token paid.

Didn't vote for it the first time, but seems perfectly reasonable and on second look might vote for it this round.

Quote
Porter
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, set aside the top card of your deck, putting it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

Quote
Town Hall
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+3 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card this turn, put it on top of your deck.

Both of these I voted for and think they have interesting overpay mechanics. Also amusing how the overpay mechanics would combo with eachother.

Quote
Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.

Still unsold on the underpay idea. Kinda cool in theory, but the reward for the other players seems so strong especially then the top half probably on its own would only be a 5 or 6.

16
Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for

17
Rules Questions / Re: Can Poor House cost you money?
« on: January 02, 2014, 05:22:39 pm »
Obvious edge cases:
1) to decrease your handsize (for watchtower, library)
2) to remove a duplicate from your hand (for menagerie)
3) to activate peddlers, Horn of plenty, conspirators
4) to prevent yourself from being forced to do something with it by a later card play? (throne room)

5) Forced playing with TR, Herald, Golem. (I would say this is the most obvious).

EDIT: Maybe you were answering to playing it being optimal, so 5 does not apply. Sorry if that's the case.

EDIT2: 5) Processing it for 3-piling (only two Moats left, no +Buy). (saving the honor)

5)If the only actions in your deck are a throne room and a copper smith and you have ten copper, a golem and a poor house in your hand you'd get $4 from playing poor house then golem.

I don't get the 3-piling case though.

18
Rules Questions / Re: Can Poor House cost you money?
« on: December 30, 2013, 07:45:01 pm »
So... edge cases where it is still optimal to play it when you have five or more treasures in hand?

Hand consists of five copper, a library and a poor house. You have two cards in deck and know the top card is an estate and the bottom card is a gold. Playing poor house gives you -1 now, but then it'll let you draw the gold with the library for a +2$ swing. Replacing the gold with a p-stone can clearly make the swing bigger, also HoP clearly has scenario that work, but is there a non-HOP case where its optimal to play poor house with 6 or more treasures in hand?


19
Felt like a lot of the cards here were either overly complex, or just did things other Alchemy cards already do but differently or were overly complex. So here are the ones I'm probably going with:

Quote
Conjuror (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $2P
+3 Cards. You may discard a Potion. If you do, +1 Action. Otherwise, gain a Potion, putting it on top of your deck.

Nice simple smithy variant.

Quote
Clairvoyant
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Action. Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Set aside a revealed Action card. Put a revealed Victory card into your hand. Discard the rest. Play the set-aside Action.

Interesting village/scout hybrid. Might be too expensive, also kinda complex, but is a cool idea.

Quote
Incantation
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. If you do, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a card that costs more than it and shares a type with it. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

Seems like a cool enough mechanic that is at least worth advancing for further discussion.

Quote
Quicksilver
Types: Treasure Reaction
Cost: $2P
When you play this, reveal your hand. This is worth $1 plus $1 per Action revealed.

When another player plays an Action, you may discard this. If you do, gain a copy of that Action.

This one has borderline support. I like the top half but don't like the bottom half.

Quote
Catalyst
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. +$1. Reveal then discard any number of Action cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card, +1 Buy, and +$1.

I think this could lose the +Buy from discarded cards, but "turns your other actions into peddlers" is a really cool Market+ twist. Turning them into Markets just feels a bit too strong. I think its my favorite card in the round though.

Quote
Research
Types: Action
Cost: $1P
Trash 2 cards from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $2 or $1P more than the total cost of the trashed cards in coins.

When you gain this, gain an Action costing up to $4.

A little clunky, but a remodel variant for Alchemy would be cool.

Quote
Enchanter
Types: Action
Cost: $2P
+3 Cards. You may play an Enchanter from your hand.

Another nice smithy variant. Steps on cultists toes, but the extra card should make it easier to chain them which is cool.

20
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Workshop: The Copper Junker Attack
« on: December 27, 2013, 05:56:43 pm »
I like it being able to trash copper, to deal with the fact that this will be adding copper.

"You may trash up to two copper from your hand, +1$ per copper you trash this way" seems reasonable. It doesn't help you thin out the other cards in your deck, but stops you from being overwhelmed by copper.

21
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Variant - Dominion with a board
« on: December 27, 2013, 02:13:45 pm »
No.

The thing about dominion is, you need vp cards to win, but they ruin your deck. +6vp (even without +1 action) would be the best card in the game by far though (edge case: colony), so almost all of the strategic depth is out of the window and the only viable strategy is the province rush.

I wouldn't say its the only viable strategy. Using the simulator, I turned the VP cards into the versions mentioned here. On guy just used big money (without buying up estates and duchies at the end) and another guy used "LittleMoney" i.e. just buy estates. BM won just 56/42. Now granted, once its 7 to 1 BM could just sit there for a while churning points. Also 56/42 is nothing to sneeze at. But I don't think its as completely dominating as you're suggesting. (let LittleMoney buy duchies when he gets a hand of five copper and he wins 52/48)

Still agree that it really just weakens the strategic depth without adding much new, but it doesn't remove all of it.

22
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Variant - Dominion with a board
« on: December 27, 2013, 01:36:48 pm »
I thought this was dominion with a board: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/121408/trains

23
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles
« on: December 22, 2013, 04:08:41 pm »
oops, embargo isn't graverobber-able, is it? 30 is the absolute max then, right?

but BoM is graverobber-able and you can use it as your embargo

24
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« on: December 21, 2013, 02:59:50 am »
Agree that Dancer is too weak. But I don't think making it cheaper helps. In a game with no other source of coin token, its just a crummy card. In order for it not to be a cantrip, you have to waste turns playing an even crummier card. The coin token on gain helps offset that a little, but would quickly get burned up.

Giving it +1 action turns it into strictly better than vanilla peddler but probably reasonable at $5

Giving it +2 coin tokens instead of +1 would make it even stronger, but I think still reasonable at $5

Not sure how to make it work at $4 though. The idea is cool at first glance, but seems flawed by its dependence on specific support cards...

Giving it +1 action doesn't just make it strictly better than vanilla peddler, it also makes it strictly better than Baker, so it can't cost $5.

I think the problem with Dancer is not anything that you describe.  Sure it's only a cantrip if you spend the coin token every time, but a lot of the time when you play a cantrip you don't end up using the leftover action, so the flexibility of saving the coin token to make it a village later makes it pretty decent as a cheap card (I still think it should cost $2 or $3 if that were the main purpose of the card).  The problem with Dancer is that the cool new thing that it does, namely saving actions for when you need them, is something which will probably not happen very often.  I think it would mostly get used as "+1 card, take a coin token", and then the whole spending coin tokens for actions thing will feel like just some other weird effect that it can do.  I would like the card a lot more if the tokens it collected for actions couldn't be spent as money as well (and then the price would be bumped down to $2).

As I think about it more though, I'm starting to like the card as it is.  I think I'm underestimating how useful being able to spend the coin tokens for actions is.  If you get lots of Dancers, you don't have to worry about them colliding since they can always be cantrips, so they are much more spammable than the simpler "+1 card, take a coin token" would be.  Getting a coin token on-gain is pretty nice too, probably what makes it okay at $4 (without it I think it could cost $3 or maybe $2).

fair enough. Guess I forgot how much 'gain a coin token' is really worth. And its true that games hurt the most by a terminal +1 card take a coin token are problem ones without good villages and plenty of useful terminal cards, which are the ones most benefited for being able to save up actions. But it still seems trappy. You first need to get a situation where you have it and no other terminal action you want to play, and then you need to get in a situation where you have it and two or more other terminal actions you want to play.

25
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« on: December 20, 2013, 04:51:05 pm »
Agree that Dancer is too weak. But I don't think making it cheaper helps. In a game with no other source of coin token, its just a crummy card. In order for it not to be a cantrip, you have to waste turns playing an even crummier card. The coin token on gain helps offset that a little, but would quickly get burned up.

Giving it +1 action turns it into strictly better than vanilla peddler but probably reasonable at $5

Giving it +2 coin tokens instead of +1 would make it even stronger, but I think still reasonable at $5

Not sure how to make it work at $4 though. The idea is cool at first glance, but seems flawed by its dependence on specific support cards...

I also agree that Strike is really cool in theory, but might be too much work to actually execute.

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