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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Multiplayer Transition
« on: March 01, 2013, 12:22:44 am »
From what I have been seeing here and thinking about it, that seems right that the powerful, simple combos are more effective in 4-player and that more elaborate engines aren't. Does that seem to hold true for colony games also or mainly province? It seems like 4-player province games definitely lean big money or big money + ____. However, its interesting to consider the effect of colony games as in 2 player they lend themselves more to engines than BM. 4-player may not lend itself as much towards engines even in colony games, but likely is somewhere in between and it would be interesting to find out what the sweet spot would be.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Multiplayer Transition
« on: February 28, 2013, 06:20:18 pm »
Good points Stealth.

I have enjoyed the discussion so far. I am interested to explore some more differences in multiplayer and even between 3 and 4 player games like you mentioned, Jacob.

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Goko Dominion Online / Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« on: February 25, 2013, 04:54:54 pm »
Here are my reasons at the moment (not particularly in any order):

1. Cards - I have access to all the cards prior to DA on Isotropic for free. All things considered $45 for all the cards is a pretty good deal (particularly as I haven't bought them IRL yet), but for now Isotropic is a better option as I am learning the game.

2. More game options - I am still pretty new to Dominion so I am still working on learning the different cards and how to play them in different situations. On Isotropic I can limit or bias automatch selections based on expansion and so far this isn't an option on Goko. So when I played some Goko I would be thrown into a few games full of Dark Ages cards and/or with a lot of cards I'm unfamiliar with, which would make the games a lot harder for me and I can't really ease my way into the different decks like I can on Isotropic. I don't really choose to use the point tracker or veto on Isotropic (I usually automatch with don't care on both settings, so I'm willing to play with them, but don't by default) and some options like this would be nice to have available on Goko.

3. No automatch / smaller userbase - This is obviously a common complaint. Often there aren't many open games at any one point and even if you create one there isn't really any assurance that the player you play will be around your skill level (though of course you can kick them out, it just seems a bit inefficient). The userbase will obviously increase once Goko leaves the beta phase and Isotropic is ended, but everyone will not necessarily migrate over, the amount of cards people have will be variable rather than unified, and there still is not an effective way to match similar-skilled players.

4. User Interface - First, one of my main problems is the in-game chat log. I personally don't really go back and look at my game logs, but that also seems to be an issue. However, I do want to know what is happening in the game and sometimes its really hard to get that on Goko. I want to be able to see what my opponent played and did and sometimes its difficult to tell with the animations either being too fast or too slow. The Goko Log parser looks like its great, though I haven't had the chance to try it yet, but I do to some extent still have a problem that some people may have access to that while others might not, giving the group using it an advantage (even if its the same information), and how its something that should really be implemented into the game itself. Second, it would be nice to have some sort of safety against misclicks like Isotropic has. Sometimes I get impatient and wind up misclicking, I have been Militia'd and thinking it was my turn I have accidently discarded a Witch (secondary complaint, though there are color differences in the aura around the cards from attacks and your turn, it still is somewhat subtle and easy to misclick with) which could be helped by some sort of confirmation quickly, and the other cases that Isotropic seems to defend against. Thirdly, hand organization. Fourth, those avatars?

5. Unreliability - I haven't played Goko as much recently and I have heard that it has been getting better and more reliable (though there are still some complaints of crashing), but I had some trouble with crashing if I had more than a few other windows open in Chrome other than Goko. I saw that there now is rejoining upon disconnecting, but I haven't tested it yet. I see that as a positive step though.

6. Rankings - The rankings on Isotropic seem much more straightforward and there has seemed to be less variation for me in the rankings on Isotropic than on Goko, though part of that may be that Iso is updated daily rather than after every game like Goko. Though the systems are supposed to be similar I feel like sometimes there are ridiculous point swings for me on Goko. I think that I've had some games on Goko that I have won yet lost points (or maybe gained a very, very small amount of points) and I am no expert in the game, just okay and sometimes playing the only game I can really get, which goes back to the smaller userbase and lack of automatch. Its also much harder to understand really where I stand with the rankings. Yes, there is a leaderboard, but thats a lot more relative and the levels on Isotropic, though not all-encompassing, give a more discrete idea of position.

7. Distrust of the company - There have been a lot of complaints about Goko's communication and relation to the community, and though I haven't been around for a lot of it, that is what I have seen so far. The failed beta launch being the premier example. Past that, there seems to often be a lack of communication by Goko with the community and I don't feel totally confident in the extent that they are listening to our concerns. This has been particularly prescient following the departure of a few staff from the company, particularly trisha, who seemed to be more involved in the community. To be fair, they have held some Q&A's and seem to be working on some of the things that this community has looked at. I also in principle dislike secondary currency units instead of just paying in straight dollars (both here on Goko and even things like Xbox live marketplace) and don't like how they just recently upped some of the prices as Alchemy came out, though they do have the right to set prices where they see fit. Some of the problems hurt my confidence in general about the product and my willingness to put down the money for the cards in a virtual format when the platform may or may not be there in the future.

Overall, I do plan to play more on Goko and make a switch when it leaves beta. However, I still have some misgivings and right now I feel like isotropic is simpler and preferable to me at the moment. I will probably wait a bit, but will likely try and buy all the cards at some point, maybe once I gain more confidence in Goko overall.

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Goko Dominion Online / Re: Let's try to make a Goko campaign!
« on: February 17, 2013, 11:29:42 pm »
Hey, I know the discussion has moved past this, but as a relatively new player to Dominion I think that some sort of teaching campaigns would be really interesting and helpful to new players.

I got introduced to Dominion maybe 4-5 months ago and have mainly played with the Base-set in real life, though I have since bought Intrigue. I am starting to get familiar with Intrigue and Seaside playing on isotropic and have been trying to get a feel of all the cards, but particularly the ones from those sets. Still it is really overwhelming. Often I am in games with cards I haven't played with much, if at all and I am unsure of really the best usages of these cards. I have spent a good amount of time looking through strategy articles on the site and f.ds, but really playing with the cards is the best way to really learn how to use them. I feel like I am not alone as a new player in maybe feeling overwhelmed at points in games with a lot of novel cards and I think campaigns that don't just use the cards but help build solid strategy would be really helpful to newer players. I don't know to what extent this is done already in the campaigns as I haven't bought any of the additional sets yet and have only played some of a base-set campaign, but I do think it would be helpful and is something I know that I would be interested in.

I know that for now you all are working on regular "fun" campaigns, but if it works I would really suggest some teaching campaigns as I think they would be really helpful for newer players and in increasing some of the overall skill pool on Goko and otherwise.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Multiplayer Transition
« on: February 17, 2013, 11:09:08 pm »
I was going to post a similar topic to this.

I feel like the site has done a great job of delving into 2-player strategy at a deep level, but I feel like multiplayer strategy isn't dealt with very much here. I would be really interested to see some more discussion on how multiplayer affects strategy at a deeper level.

At the basic level multiplayer does a few things, that people have already mentioned:

1. Because the amount of regular kingdom cards doesn't vary based on the group size, there is a wider distribution of sought-after cards (4-3-3 or 3-3-2-2 rather than a 5-5 even split). This I would presume effects cards you want a lot of, particularly if you can chain them together (minions, cities, etc.) and they are therefore weakened if other people go also go for the same cards and thus you get fewer of them in your deck. It also hurts if you are trying to build an engine and there is a part or parts that others want also.

2. It affects victory card distribution, particularly in 4-player games. In a 3-player game there still are 4 of any victory card per player in an equal distribution, but it still probably has some effects on the game (though I am not sure exactly what all the effects would be). However, in a 4-player game there are still only 12 victory cards, so now an equal distribution results in only 3 per player, which could lead to games ending faster, particularly if there is a relatively equal distribution of victory cards bought.

3. Attacks that can stack become much more powerful, attacks which might or might not hit become more reliable with multiple chances, and attacks that do not stack become a bit weaker. Attacks like Torturer, cursers, and cutpurse which can a. hit a player multiple times before their turn and b. hit multiple players at once become stronger. Cards that may be poor in 2-player or in general lack reliability because they may not hit (Pirate ship or even Thief) become stronger to at least some degree as with multiple targets the chance of hitting increases. However, attacks that don't stack become at least a little bit weaker such as Militia as there is less to gain by playing it if it has already been played that turn by another player.

4. As said before, three-piling is more likely in multiplayer

5. Dealing with multiple opponents may affect the optimal strategy for the game. If there is one strategy that three players are taking, a different strategy that normally would be less optimal in a 2-player game may become more viable and even the best strategy for the situation.

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However, I think it would be interesting to go more in depth into multiplayer strategy. I don't think anyone would really settle for this level of depth of strategy for 2-player situations. I think what makes the site interesting is the depth to which the discussion, analysis and strategy goes for the game, often even to edge cases. In-depth multiplayer strategy still feels relatively untapped though. I think even a set of card rankings in multiplayer would be interesting to see.


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Thank you all for your replies, so it seems Intrigue/Seaside for me sounds like the consensus.

What order would you recommend getting them in if I buy one soon and the other in a month or so? Also, if my roommate is planning on getting Prosperity sometime soon how would that affect things.

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Hello everyone, sorry for another topic about expansion packs. I was just recently introduced to Dominion by one of my roommates, who has the Base Set. We have talked about maybe getting some expansions soon to make things more exciting. However, as I will probably ultimately want to have a collection of my own I am trying to consider what to purchase both considering the present and after this year.

I have seen that (particularly prior to Dark Ages and also giving our relative inexperience) that most people recommend Seaside/Prosperity for the first few expansion packs and a few people also recommend Intrigue. Plus, now there is Dark Ages, which may not be the best choice now, but could be a good option once we have had time with some of the expansion packs.

How viable would it be for me to buy Intrigue and Seaside/Prosperity in lieu of buying base set, maybe for a while. Can Intrigue and one of the other expansions (those two or other) provide a good range of options like the base set that I could use for a while without having the base set?  How well would Dark Ages work at some point in the future? Say we buy Seaside and Prosperity now and I later get DA?

So ultimately I'm looking for:
-What complements the base set well now and adds variety and interest to our current games
-What I could use to build a playable collection of my own before buying a base set

This could be in one or two big expansions and maybe an additional small expansion or two, if possible.


Also, I have started playing some games on Iso. I got thrown into a few games with cards from any deck and it was a bit difficult to adjust to the variety of cards. I feel pretty comfortable with the base set now and want to work on gradually work on easing cards from other sets into my games. I was thinking about trying to look over kingdoms from each set incrementally and easing those cards into the draws over time. Is there a good way to do this, that might differ from normal expansion buying advice?

Thanks everyone for the help.

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