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Messages - Ingix

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1
Rules Questions / Re: Sailor/Blockade
« on: August 01, 2022, 04:14:14 am »
The way I see it, Blockade's duration effect is conditional, if you don't set aside a card on it, no duration effect activates.

But that isn't the case here, you did set aside a card with it Blockade. It just didn't stay there for long. Which is different from Gear and not setting any cards aside to begin with.

I think it simply has to be acknowledged that, like many other rules, the rules what Duration cards know about themselves were formed at a time when there were much wider gaps between what "clearly would work" and what "clearly wouldn't work". Situations like with Conjurer, where the next turn effect explicitely depends on the card to be in play to have a meaningful effect just didn't exist then. So intuitons about how Band of Misfits/Conjurer should work out are different.

A Conjurer played normally always stays in play unless it is removed by some external effect (which get fewer and fewer). To me that means a Band of Mistfit playing Conjurer should also stay in play for a turn, even though it is known that the next turn effect will fail.

2
Rules Questions / Re: Scheme / Highwayman
« on: July 22, 2022, 01:58:25 pm »
I'd say that for it to apply again, the card needs to move from top of the deck into play (maybe via intermediate steps), which causes the Scheme to loose track. So if you played Scheme only once, then it can't topdeck the same Highwayman again, because it doesn't know it's the same Highwayman.

3
Rules Questions / Re: Scheme / Highwayman
« on: July 21, 2022, 04:26:04 pm »
I don't see why this shouldn't work. Scheme does not mention anything about only working in Clean-Up

4
Rules Questions / Re: Weaver
« on: July 03, 2022, 06:34:48 am »
The question opened with:

> The Wiki says: “When discarding multiple Weavers,

This is about discarding multiple Weavers at once, at the same time. They all go to your discard at the same time, then you handle their Reactions one after the other.

That's how "discard your hand" or "discard down to 3 cards in hand" are supposed to happen (this will be in the Hinterlands rulebook and was a question of debate for some time).

5
Rules Questions / Re: Weaver
« on: July 03, 2022, 03:32:26 am »
When you discard a Weaver it goes to your discard pile. If you then play it via its triggered ability, you get it out of your discard pile and put it into play, then do it's effect.

Some time ago a rule was changed, that now says that in order for a card to be played, it needs to be where the effect that plays it expects it to be (with some exceptions that aren't relevant here).  The Weaver's Reaction expects it to be in the discard pile. If the discard pile was shuffled in the mean time, the Weaver left the discard pile, so the rule kicks in an prevents you from playing that Weaver.

In practical terms, the card is really "lost", it's at an unknown location inside your deck now.

6
Right, the previous "Silver" and "Gold" subscriptions have been replaced by "Core" and "Complete" subscriptions when Allies was released on dominion.games. You can find the details on the Shuffle iT forum, but JW already explained the main part.

Players wanting to familiarize themselves with cards can now choose to play with only cards of a certain maximal level (1-10), ranging from easy to complex. This means the amount of new cards when one "goes up one level" is much smaller than before, where you had only 3 options: base only (level 1 now), Silver subsctiption, or Gold subscription (all cards, level 10 now).

The old Silver subscription was honored for players that had it, so you didn't see any cards removed until you bought the new Core subscription.

If anything is unclear, feel free to ask!

7
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Bot stops after playing Weaver
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:35:31 am »
Yes, not yet fixed though.  :(

8
Rules Questions / Re: Treasury and Cavalry
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:31:54 am »
Sounds legit.

9
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:25:42 am »
[
-Mission: Clarifies that you can still buy Events.

So "Projects" was forgotten then. Hinterlands has neither after all.

The obvious: Mission is from Adventures, which has Events, but no Projects.

Those errata are simply what the next printing of the card will say (as currently planned). Putting the reminder on Mission is supposed to help with the kinds of cards a player is guaranteed to have around. If they also have Renaissance, they will most likely make the leap to see that those can be bought as well.

That this errata was published now, at the end of Hinterlands 2E preview, has more to do with the fact the digital changes are easier to make and more importantly easier to distribute. Instead of waiting for each set to be reprinted with a few cards changing and chaning it online then, the changes were combined to a big one.

10
Dominion General Discussion / Re: lurker + knights is confusing huh
« on: June 29, 2022, 02:18:01 am »
Can you say in more detail what happened? Trashing Sir Vander from the Supply with Lurker should give you exactly 1 Gold (which is suprising for many), but not 4. Of course, if you repeately played Sir Vander and it got trashed in a Knight's fight (and then resurrected by Lurker), each time you also get a Gold.

11
Rules Questions / Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« on: June 07, 2022, 10:55:14 am »
For all of this to work as intended, one cannot argue that Star Chart replaces one shuffle with a new, different shuffle. Because if that was the case, you could apply Star Chart again to the new shuffle, and recusively not just topdeck one card, but order the complete deck. While that argument cannot be applied to the Orders alone, I wouldn't want those two to create new shuffles, as this would again allow Star Chart to be applicable to the new shuffle. While this does not really seem to break the game, it seems not good to have those similar effects work in a different way.

Trying to understand this. Why do you say that you could apply Star Chart again to the new shuffle but you couldn't apply the Orders again?
EDIT: Ah, I think it's not that you couldn't, it's just that it wouldn't make a difference because you have to spend Favors.

Yes, or more specifically that applying an Order again to the hypothetically created "new shuffle" does not do anything you couldn't have done "the first time". If you spend 2 Favors once, to put 4 cards into the discard pile, you get the same as when you spend a Favor to put 2 cards into it and then spend another Favor to put 2 more cards into it. I hope that makes sense :)

12
Rules Questions / Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« on: June 07, 2022, 04:50:12 am »
Slight rant and trying to understand how this works, but in the end I think I agree with Jeebus now. :)

The -1 card token and Enchatress/Ways replace a thing with something else. That is relatively clean, because now you have something else, the previous thing that was about to happen no longer happens, so other things that would apply to it or try to replace it no longer "work".

Star Chart and Astrologer/Masons do not do this clean replacement IMO, because if they did, you couldn't use both Star Chart and one of those 2 Allies on the same shuffle. This is a modifying effect, the "shuffle" isn't replaced with something else, it is modified. For Star Chart, you first select a card and put it somewhere, then do the randomization of the remaining cards (the "shuffle"), then put the selected card on top. But, you can also apply another modifying effect to the randomization, like an Ally. Or you do it in the reverse order, first the Ally, then Star Chart.

For all of this to work as intended, one cannot argue that Star Chart replaces one shuffle with a new, different shuffle. Because if that was the case, you could apply Star Chart again to the new shuffle, and recusively not just topdeck one card, but order the complete deck. While that argument cannot be applied to the Orders alone, I wouldn't want those two to create new shuffles, as this would again allow Star Chart to be applicable to the new shuffle. While this does not really seem to break the game, it seems not good to have those similar effects work in a different way.

All of this means to me, that Star Chart and the 2 Orders are modifying effects, which do not completely replace a shuffle with something else, but they modify the shuffle, and other modifying effects can still apply to modified shuffle.

The question is now what should "shuffle" on Emmissary mean? Does it apply to the first "shuffle" it created, or to any modified versions in between, or only to the "final" one? Originally I argued it should apply to the first one it created, but I see that making it "see" the final one only makes sense as well. If that "shuffle" involved 0 cards due to Order of Masons, then it doesn't give the bonus.


13
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Merchant Guild error
« on: June 06, 2022, 03:06:58 am »
Yes, the change that going back to your Action phase is triggering "end of buy phase" effects is relatively recent, and not yet implemented.

14
Rules Questions / Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« on: June 04, 2022, 02:57:16 pm »
We don't have to decide what kind of randomization or not randomization constitutes "shuffling", because Emissary already has the answer. It's whether it involved at least one card. So when you're told to shuffle, if you move at least one card from your discard pile to your deck, you "shuffled" those cards (or that card).

I disagree. When you play Emissary, you look if you need to shuffle. Then you look if you have at least 1 card in the discard pile. If yes, you shuffle, and Emissary is satisfied and will give the bonus. How many cards end up anwhere is totally irrelevant to that. If you took the card and made it go to (or rather stay) in the discard pile (with Order of Masons), you shuffled that one card.

To me that idea that you only look at the the "usual" shuffling (what I call randomization) to determine if Emissary gives the bonus is very alien. It would mean that shuffling means something else on Emissary and Order of Masons.


15
Rules Questions / Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« on: June 04, 2022, 11:48:54 am »
The question is what it actually means to "shuffle". With Order of Masons, Astrologers and Star Chart, that has potentially becoming quite different from a simple randomization.

To me it makes no sense to say that Order of Masons applies, but that you then didn't shuffle for the purpose of Emissary.

Order of Masons and the other are in my opinion replacement effects, that modify what you do when you shuffle. That you need to shuffle is decided at some point, and whatever is then done is the "shuffle". In an extreme case, it may not involve any randomiization of cards, but is still a shuffle for the game.

16
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Finding a table
« on: June 03, 2022, 12:16:35 pm »
Posting a screenshot of the matching tab might help. If you are new to this, you might inadvertantly have changed some values trying to find a better match, but in reality made it worse! Here is mine, maybe you can already see something that is way off for you:



Generally, rated games are more thought after (but I rarely play using automatch).

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« on: June 01, 2022, 04:37:08 am »
It also removes the interaction with Trader where you could play Hoard, buy Estate and reveal Trader, to gain Silver and a Gold, which was maybe not the strongest thing ever but quite a fun little interaction.

That isn't changed, it still works. Note that Trader changed, so you now do gain the bought Estate (triggering Hoard and Trader), so you gain a Gold and can exchange the Estate for a Silver, in either order.

18
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Seaside 2E Preview 3
« on: May 19, 2022, 01:54:45 am »
There was some discussion before about how Enchantress can't be read literally though. You have to have an implied "would" in there somewhere for it to make sense ("instead" without "would" never makes sense really). In the case of Enchantress, the "correct" wording would be "when you would follow a card's instructions" rather than "when you play a card".

Updated Citadel is the same; it says "when you play" but that's not literally how it should be read.

As far as I know there hasn't been a real "when you play" effect until Corsair; and ironically it doesn't use "when you play" wording.

The general idea is that "When you do X" happens after X. That is also true when X is "play", but unfortunately the Enchantress-like effects (Enchantress, Ways, Highwayman) have also used that wording. As has been said, those effects can usually be distinguished because they explicitely "meddle with" the execution of the card, which Corsair does not mention anything about.

Space permitting, the "after" is sometimes explictely spelled out, like just recently on Fellowship of Scribes. That shouldn't mean it isn't the exact same timing (well, I don't think there is a Way for Silver/Gold to be an Action also), but another example is opponent's Corsair +  your Merchant. If you play the first Silver that turn later, both trigger at exactly the same time and are ordered in the same timing window (which usually doesn't matter).

19
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Tower listed as giving -1 VP
« on: April 09, 2022, 02:03:32 am »
Yes, an old bug hat can happen if a pile empties, then gets filled up again (Experment in your game). Strangely but fortunately, it doesn't affect the actual point calculation, Lord Rat was shown to have 30 points during game end and during the end of game screen, which corresponds to 0 Tower points.

20
Rules Questions / Re: Garrison without tokens
« on: April 08, 2022, 05:59:21 am »
I can see that argument (from joefarebrother).

OTOH, it could also be that due to Donate, at end of turn you trash a card, you gain a Gold with Market Square and play Sheepdog using Way of the Mouse, playing a Black Market, playing Scepter and finally replaying the Gear or Secret Cave that you didn't make stay out on the first play.

So after thinking about it some more, the sensible solution to me (right now  ;D) would be to have a Duration card check at Clean-up

1) is there an effect from it after this turn at all,
2) if yes, will any of these effects accomplish anything?

If one of the future effects will accomplish anything (given current data), the Duration card stays out, otherwise not (or better, this particular test if the card stays out says "not because of me").

For Gear. 1) would be true always (unless it was played using a Way or under Enchantress). But if no cards were set aside, check 2 would fail.
The same argument should apply IMO to Garrison and Cargo Ship, if no relevant cards were gained.

And while this does open the possibility that a card is gained later (with it being set aside on "nothing" for Cargo Ship), this is a rare occurance that should not make the general decision more complicated. And it's also something that is already possible using Throne Room - like cards and Way of the Horse/Butterfly.

21
Rules Questions / Re: Garrison without tokens
« on: April 06, 2022, 02:21:51 pm »
Yes, I think doing something on later turns should be the key. It's the same problem that Cargo Ship also has.

I guess it makes sense to keep them in play, as when you do actually gain a card at end of turn, the effect is still supposed to happen, and then you would otherwise have no place to put the card for Cargo Ship.

22
Rules Questions / Re: Highwayman "each turn"
« on: April 02, 2022, 06:34:43 am »
Yes, it's supposed to work that way, also when you play a Treasure when it's not your turn.

On dominion.games, last I tested, it was buggy.

23
Rules Questions / Re: Command questions
« on: April 01, 2022, 11:14:36 am »
You already can Crown a Scepter, and that Scepter can then play that same Crown again (twice). Of course, you then need new Treasure cards to continue, but the basic concept is not totally impossible.

And before the Command errata, Captain playing Band of Misfits playing Captain in ping-pong way (possible with some cost reducion) could also go on forever.

24
Rules Questions / Re: Command questions
« on: April 01, 2022, 02:04:55 am »
Overlord stays in play until Clean-up of the second turn. For ease of understanding, all those rules tell when to discard a card (like an Overlord or Throne Room or Duration card, for which special rules apply). From my understanding, the actual rule is "negative":

You discard every card in play during Clean-up, except

1) duration cards that have things left to do after this turn, or
2) cards that played a duration card an extra time and that duration card will be in play after Clean-up's discard effect, or
3) cards that played a card leaving it where it is out of play, when that card would be in play after Clean-up's discard effect.

So the question when to discard Overlord comes up during first turn's Clean-up, when it is not discarded due to rule 3), which is in effect because of rule 1), for Highwayman. The next time the question comes up is during the second turn's Clean-up. Then Highwayman would not be in play after Clean-up's discard effect, so rule does not kick in and Overlord is discarded then.

Since the usual time cards are discarded is during Clean-up, that's what the rulebook rule says.

The above rule also answers your second question in the affirmative. During the first turn's Clean-up, Captain stays in play because of rule 1). During the second turn's Clean-up it stays in play due to rule 3), because the Throne Room would not be discarded due to rule 2), because the Caravan is not discarded due to rule 1).

As you can see, those rules are recursive. In order to decide if some card is discarded or not, you need to check if another card will/would be in play after the discard effect, which may need to know the same thing about another card, a.s.o. Until now no loop for such dependencies seems to exist.

25
Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Royal Galley + Scheme
« on: March 28, 2022, 10:50:39 am »
Do you have a game number for that?

I just did a small test and neither the Royal Galley nor the Scheme were selectable. Could it be that you could use Scheme on other Schemes you've played? Since the Scheme played via Royal Galley isn't even in play at end of turn, I don't even understand how it could be made available for selection by the UI for Scheme's effect.

For the Royal Galley itself, I see 2 potential explanations:

1) You had a Royal Galley that didn't play a card (because you had no non-Duration Actions in your hand, or didn't want them to play).
2) They yellowish border around Royal Galley indicating that it has set aside a card was making you think it was available for selection, when in fact it wasn't.

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