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Messages - Ingix

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You are right, "until end of turn" or "this turn" effects have an incorrect duration in the online client, the same cost reduction for example from Bridge also lasts until your actual next turn ends.

In reality, from my understanding, between turns is nobody's turn, so "until end of turn"/"this turn" is undefined, because there is no turn going on. So like all undefined things, the thing it refers to doesn't happen, so no cost reduction comes of this Inventor (so if you trash 2 Catacombs and do the mentioned sequence twice, the second Inventor will see the same costs of cards as the first one).

Inheritance (under its  new October 2019 wording) only works "on your turn", so Estates are never Actions between turns.

Rules Questions / Re: Mastermind + Mastermind + X + X + Mastermind
« on: November 15, 2020, 03:45:20 pm »
The key in understanding this is that there a two sets of rules that govern how long Mastermind (MM) stays in play:

1) The rules for a Duration card staying in play, and
2) The rules for a "Throne Room"-like card staying in play.

The rules for a Duration card staying in play would just keep the Mastermind out for 1 turn, after that time, it did it's job of playing another card 3 times. But the rules for "Throne Room"-like cards say that such a card playing a Duration card an additional time means they stay out as long as the Duration card does.

MM1 is played on turn X. On turn X+1 MM1 plays MM2 3 times. MM1 stays out as long as MM2, according to the rules for 2) above. Since MM2 is a Duration card that has things left to do, MM1 stays at for another turn (X+2), on which MM2 plays Smithies (no relevance for staying out) and MM3. By the same argument as above, MM2 stays in play as long as MM3 does, so is staying at least until turn (X+3), which means MM1 also stays in play until at least that turn.

So your option i) is correct.

Rules Questions / Re: Clarifying playing the action with Toil
« on: October 26, 2020, 06:21:48 pm »
Sure you can use them. What would be the point of +Buy if you can't use money you generated before the first buy to pay for a second or further buy? Events like Borrow and Desperation are made to use that feature. Note that the buy phase has 2 sub-phases, in the first you play Treasure cards, in the second you buy things. So after you bought something, you can no longer play Treasures (as the game allowed action to play Treasures is limited to the first sub-phase). Only if some effect says so you can do it (like if you Toil a Crown).

And btw, the idea of "virtual" or "non-virtual" money is not useful. If you play an Action, it may generate money or it may not. If you play a Treasure card, it may generate money, or it may not. The money generated (if any) is absolutely the same. The only difference is that the percentage of "may not" is much higher for Actions than it is for Treasures.

Rules Questions / Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« on: October 26, 2020, 06:15:02 am »
The current ruling is that "discard down to X" effects happen in one event. So once the discard down to 3 for Margrave has been done (likely discarding 3 cards from 6 down to 3 in one event), any future hand size increases/decreases, even if happening still during Margraves execution, have no further effect on those instructions.

So with Tunnel/Gold/Sleigh, your brother should have ended up with 2 cards in hand (3 after Margrave discard, then one less by discarding Sleigh). They could have put the Gold in hand with Sleigh as well, reaching 3 cards, but again neither effect has a bearing on the Margrave discard effect any more.

With Tunnel/Gold/Sheepdog, again the additional 2 cards drawn from Sheepdog have no bearing on the already completed discard effect by Margrave.


Now there are discussions that this should be handled the same as "draw to X" effects, which are one at a time:
But as far as I'm aware what I wrote above is the way it currently works.

Rules Questions / Re: Questions about Ways
« on: October 26, 2020, 05:59:56 am »
Especially for question 2, it pays to remember that the decision if to use a Way on a given Action card playing happens after all the "first" effects for it have happened, like opponents revealing a Moat, or Urchin triggering or the Adventure tokens doing their effect.

If you know this, the answer to question 2 becomes blindingly obvious, because the Urchin effect needs to have already happened before even the time comes to decide if you want to use a Way.

Right. Both Enchantress and Ways replace "following the card's instructions" with something else. Once a Way is applied, Enchantress can't affect it.

Rules Questions / Re: Way of the Chameleon Instructions
« on: October 01, 2020, 09:35:52 am »
Consider following game situations:

(a) Play Chapel with Way of the Chameleon, trash Rats, get +1 Card or +1$
(b) Play Rats with Way of the Chameleon, get +1$. Later buy Bonfire, trash this Rats, get +1 Card or +1$
(c) Play Priest with Way of the Chameleon, get +2 Cards. Later play Chapel, trash Copper, get +2$ or +2 Cards from Priest

(a): +1 Card.
(b): +1 Card.
(c): +2 Cards.

Which +Card, +$ will be triggered by Way of the Chameleon?
(i) All instructions on the chameleoned card (triggers (b) and (c))
(ii) Only instructions on the chameleoned card above the line (triggers only (c))
(iii) All +Card, +$ produced by the chameleoned card during following the instructions of this card (triggers only (a))
(iv) ?

The answer is a slight variation on (ii), it will effect only those instructions on the chameleoned card above the line (more precisely: the on-play instructions), that happen during this turn.

So playing Merchant Ship using Way of the Chameleon will give you +2 Cards this turn but +$2 on your next turn, and the other way around for Wharf.

If (ii) is right, are there another abilities triggered by Way of the Chameleon after following the instructions of the chameleoned card besides Priest? I didn't find anything.

Merchant comes to mind, though this likely not often useful.

Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions
« on: October 01, 2020, 04:43:25 am »
There has never been the case that Vassal or similar cards cause Durations to stay; only Throne Room variants. There were some changes to the underlying rule though.
But I don't think the stop-moving errata could be relevant in any case, since it only dealt with moving covered cards in your discard pile.

The question is, what exactly is a Throne Room variant? Newer cards like Scepter play a card only once, but are still considered "Throne Room" variants. So the difference between Vassal playing a Village Green that was already played this turn and a Scepter playing a Village Green that was already played this turn is IMO hard to pin down exactly.

So the practical solution (in my understanding) is to say we "know" a Throne Room variant when we see it, and Vassal doesn't fit.

The idea (from the game development perspective) is to minimize the number of occasions where you play a card but don't have the physical card present to put intom play. This possibility exists since the original base set (Throne a Feast), but at that time the effect was shortlived (you just do it now, no need to remember anything), while Village Green is a Duration card.

The "reveal" version gets rid of the problem of the Village Green "vanishing" from wherever it was put into. I assume it will arrive on the next printed version if Menagerie.

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: March + Ways
« on: August 21, 2020, 04:46:07 am »
Right, you found bad UI   :(

What you are supposed to do is buy March, move the shown discard pile downward so you can see the Kingdom, and click on the Way you want to use. This changes the Action card pictures to the Way picture. If you play an Action card now, it is played using the Way.

Of course, the interface should just show the "Way" button on the Actions cards in your discard pile, so one click to the right place would be enough to declare your choice.

Rules Questions / Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« on: August 05, 2020, 04:46:44 am »

Rules Questions / Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« on: August 02, 2020, 04:16:31 am »
Actually, I think you picked the one example where the answer is not that obvious. Notice that Gatekeeper says "Until then, when another player...". It's possible this refers to the point in time that the previous "At start of turn,..." effect was resolved.

Basically the reason for that wording boils boils down to tracking issues IRL. You are supposed to remember what you do/did the current turn, but remembering how many of your Duaration cards you Chameleon'ed last turn may be hard in a 4 player game, for example.

Rules Questions / Re: Multiple reaction
« on: July 17, 2020, 05:34:06 am »
Right. Note that the right to react always starts with/reverts to the active player. That can be important in the above scenario if we assume that Moat is also in the kingdom.

Let's say I (active player) have a Falconer myself in hand, but initially decide not to use it on my Mill gain. As answered, Aki plays her Falconer, gaining a Black Cat. Now the "right to react" returns to me, and now I can decide to play Falconer to gain a Moat to my hand, to protect me from the imminent Black Cat play by Aki.

Rules Questions / Re: Durable Mouse
« on: July 11, 2020, 04:20:01 pm »
Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.

Emphasis mine, page 3 of the Menagerie rulebook. The card does what they Ways says.

Rules Questions / Re: Durable Mouse
« on: July 11, 2020, 02:49:01 am »
Jeebus wrote:

But that doesn't mean that the card is the thing doing the Enchantress effects or the Way effects.

In my opinion this is exactly what happens. The card is doing the thing it normally doesn't. It doesn't change (gain/loose abilities), but the rules allow it to do things it noromally doesn't.

Right. The "next turn" effect of Duration cards is created during their resolution, it doesn't need to be in play or anywhere accessible next turn

Before last year's errata, you could for example Procession a Hireling, thus end up with the Hireling card not in play in future turns and still draw 2 cards at the start of each of your turns for the 2 times it was played.

Rules Questions / Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« on: June 03, 2020, 05:31:45 am »
I think that being a state makes it inherently trackable. We know it is the same state, because only one such state exists. The same is true for Deluded/Envious, which is unique to each player. The same holds true for Artifacts, where each exists only once.

So I think the general principle should be that once such a state/Artifact has triggered for an occasion, it will not trigger again on that occasion, even if it changes owners once or more.

So if you loose and regain the Treasure Chest during your "start of buy phase" trigger time (not sure it's possible), it would not give you an an additional Gold, IMO.

So if Lost in Town/Woods "moves between players" during the respective trigger period, it shouldn't retrigger, IMO.

Correct according to my understanding.

Rules Questions / Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« on: May 23, 2020, 04:31:53 am »
My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

2) If the Lost in the Woods state goes back and forth between players like here, it's arguable that the player whose turn it is should actually get another Boon from that state (for a discard, of course), in addition to the 3 Boons from playing Fool. It's established (and I just checked online) that if you Summon Fool and don't start next turn with Lost in the Woods, you get the 3 Boons from Fool and afterwards the Lost in the Woods triggers and you can discard a card for another Boon, if you want. So it's not totally out of the question, but I really don't know.

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Durations with Emulators
« on: April 26, 2020, 04:10:51 am »
I own Empires, which has the card Overlord, whose wording does not reflect the errata. My family and I simply play the Overlord by its old wording, since we own no other Command cards, so we assumed it would play as it normally would when playing the errata'd version. If something referred to Overlord's types, we simply made sure to include Command.

Your main point of misunderstanding is that the Command type being added to Overlord was the main point of the errata. It's not, that was an "afterthought" after it was realized that the previous version of the errata allowed infinite combos.

The main point of the errata was that instead of Overlord "becoming" another card, it would play that other other card from the Supply, but leave it there. That kept Overlord an Overlord, but still had the effect that another card was played.

Like for Throne Rooms and Durations, there is also a rule that if an Overlord plays a Duration, it stays out as long as the Duration would. In case of Archive, it would stay out for as long as the Archive would, so normally for your next 2 turns. The Overlord in play should remind you that you have a Duration effect, because the Duration card itself (the Archive) can't remind you of that (it isn't in play), as it normally would. So I would personally put the cards set aside with Archive under /next to the Overlord.

Rules Questions / Re: Cost of Animal Fair revisited
« on: April 16, 2020, 05:39:11 am »
Jeebus wrote:

Rather, the conclusion must be my alternative 3: Animal Fair has a special unstated rule which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.
This is actually pretty much stated in the rulebook: "You can only do this if you have an Action card in hand to trash. You can do this even if you do not have $7."

I think your first sentence does not imply the first part of the rulebook quote. You could, in theory, buy it without the coin or an action card in hand. Of course, the game would then become "stuck" as you have no way to either pay the cost of $7, or do the "instead" action indicated on the card.

MtG has a rewind mechanism, because the announcement process got so complicated over time that sometimes you really can't know at the start if you are able to finish. I don't think it would be wise to have that here.  So I would propose a slight change to what Jeebus wrote:

Animal Fair has a special unstated rule which means you're allowed to choose it when buying if you have an Action card in your hand, even if you can't afford it.

There is a similar autoplay for that already, it makes the game not asked for Ruins, Curses, Copper and pure Victory cards.

You can find it in under "Options"/ "Autoplay Options", Section "Other Autoplays", then "Province". Set this to "Keep bad cards in Exile".

In-game, you change it by right-clicking any of the mentioned cards, easiest to remember might be Province.

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Dominion Scavenger is Back
« on: April 01, 2020, 05:58:27 am »
I don't know about the site itself, but AFAIK the access of the site to the Dominion Online database of results has been temporarily cancelled. With the recent slowdowns, it turned out that some of the querries were taking  a large toll on the database server.

The intention is to restore access once the situation has stabilized. When exactly that is, is unclear at the moment.

Your games are not "lost", they will just be applied all at once at some later (hopefully not much later) time. Also make sure you play rated games:

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