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Topics - gman314

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Simulation / Idea for an AI - state evaluation
« on: August 15, 2013, 12:10:23 pm »
A big problem for any attempted Dominion AI is that there are a lot of possible options on each turn, and it's hard to tell what's the best one. This is particularly true of Buy options; generally it's fairly easy to play a given hand in the best way. Since playing is relatively easy, the rest of this discussion will assume that the AI has good play rules and will focus on buy phase decisions.

My idea for an AI is one which imagines putting one card into its deck and determines what its likelihood of winning is. It does so for each possible card it could buy (you can probably cut some cards - For instance why consider Copper when you can get Silver?) and then buys the card that gives it the highest likelihood of winning. Now, how does it evaluate a state and all the hypothetical states? To evaluate any game state, it uses some sort of (basic) strategy to play out the rest of the game and determines its own probability of winning. For instance, the play-out strategy could just be to follow BMU buy rules for the rest of the game from whatever deck it now has. It also assumes that the opponent uses the same play-out strategy from its current deck.

This approach will obviously learn a strategy on any board, as its approach is independent of the cards available. BMU is an obvious play-out strategy, because it's a baseline available on any board, although other strategies are possible, including more complex options. In the case of difficult play decisions, this approach can be used as well, by imagining playing out the hand several ways with a random deck and determining the one which is the best according to some evaluation (possibly most $, but also possibly the play which yields the best possible deck state by some evaluation - this is important for TfB as you may want to Remodel a Gold or something like that). In the case of a turn with multiple buys, it can just use the buy determination model several times, with the available $ decreasing with each iteration. Here it is important to allow the bot to buy nothing, as it could otherwise end up getting a bunch of Copper by deciding that buying Copper was better than buying Curse.

Major downfalls of this approach are that it will likely skip some good strategies. For instance, since Ironworks isn't good for BMU, it would likely ignore something like Ironworks-Gardens if BMU were its play-out strategy. Also, I would be very interested in seeing what kinds of decks it builds. It may skip Villages entirely because they don't help BMU, but it may also take an approach of getting some terminals like Smithy and Militia and then discovering that maybe it should pick up a Village and then get into some sort of engine. It might also completely underrate +Buys for similar reasons.

A nice upside of this approach is that it will likely automatically play PPR, as this is  just part of playing out the state to consider the effect of buying a Province when there are two left.

Game Reports / 30 turn engine game?
« on: July 26, 2013, 06:44:34 pm »
I just played this really weird game:

We both slimmed down to an engine pretty quickly, and it looked like the game would end soon, but he got a Thief and destroyed my economy. I started rebuilding my economy with Stewards and a Hunting Grounds (and some extra Native Villages), and I thought I'd be able to end it soon, but he got a crazy turn 21 which ran out the Duchies and gave him a lead. Since I only had 1 buy/turn with no Develops, I couldn't get more than 6 pts a turn and since he had a 6 point lead and I was P1 I spent quite a while buying Harems in the hope that he'd stall and I could get the last Province to win. Then the Harems got dangerously low (NVs and Duchies were gone), so Tunnels became my 2 point cards for a bit. Then suddenly, his engine discovered that it was out of action cards to procession, which left him with 2 dead turns which allowed me to get the last Province and win.

So, my question with this game is: He played his first Thief on his 12th turn. From then on, should the game went a lot slower. Did the game have to slow down this much, or did my poor play against the Thief cause the deceleration, or did we just get an outcome on the edge of the bell curve?

Game Reports / Butcher on the Hunt
« on: July 23, 2013, 04:48:12 pm »
As I discovered in this game Butcher works quite well as a Hunting Party buddy. Basically, you use Butcher as the X in a hunting party + X strategy, and just consider the trashing as a bonus.

What makes it work quite well is that there are often turns in a HP strategy where you end up with $9 or more, because the first card drawn by at least one HP was a duplicate Copper or Silver. With Butcher, you can save up to two of those coins for later turns when your engine doesn't fire, or you can save up for a big improvement of a card you don't want to a VP card at the end.

Butcher also helps in the early game, as you can get rid of Estates; which while not strictly necessary can still help HP significantly. These Estates can become Silver and get you an extra token to save, but can also be turned into other useful parts like Hunting Parties. Making Hunting Parties can also deal with the occasional extra Silver you pick up in the early game.

Any thoughts on Hunting Party + Butcher?

Game Reports / Trashing a Province - With Junk Dealer!
« on: July 04, 2013, 02:45:28 pm »
I wanted to post the log, but forgot to grab it but I just played a game with Witch, Sea Hag and Familiar throwing curses all over the place, as well as Junk Dealer. I got the lead, and right at the end realized that I had a chance to buy the last Province only if I trashed a Province with Junk Dealer. So I did. It was pretty cool.

Game Reports / Cool Combo: Journeyman + Estate Trashser
« on: July 04, 2013, 02:33:20 pm »
In this game the trasher was Salvager, but this principle could probably work fairly well with any trasher where you really just want to trash Estates and then big cards for a huge payout. Since your trasher doesn't want to really touch your Coppers, your Journeymen can just name Copper and once your Estates are gone skip everything you don't want. And when you still have Estates, it doesn't matter that you're drawing them as they still provide +$2 or something like that.

Also in the same game there was some cool stuff with Grand Market and Salvager and Merchant Ship and IGG. Pretty cool game.

Yesterday, I played this game against Crablar. My main idea was to Forge basically everything, reveal Market Squares while I was at it, and then transition into stuff with Tournament. Meanwhile, Crablar opens Treasure Map/Market Square with the idea of activating Market Squares off of TM matches. I win 31-20 and he comments that his strategy was probably a bad idea, and asks for a rematch. He has a pro rating of about 5300, so I accept.

This leads to this gem. I open with Sea Hag which he ignores all game and when I'm up 40-7 he resigns and asks to make it a best of 5 series. I have the time, so I accept.

Game 3 is an engine based on Border Village, Hunting Grounds, Bridge, and Golem with Treasury and Baker for support. We both go for it and despite his Potion opening, he causes a three-pile ending to win.

Finally, we play this game which again features Sea Hag. He ignores it, and opens Potion, getting 2 Transmutes but never a Possession while I keep giving him Curses. Thanks to trashing, he's able to end with only 2, but my Courtyard-BM approach with a Sea Hag and Lookout beats his interesting engine/Rebuild mix.

Now, where am I going with this? Well, two places. First, this is evidence to me that Goko's rating system sucks. I can't believe that a player can pass 5000 and still ignore Sea Hag, go for Treasure Map/Market Square, and open Potion on a Golem board, or a Transmute/Possession board. And this is not the first time I've seen this kind of play at what I thought was a high level. I won't say that I played any of those games perfectly; I accidentally trashed too much on a Forge play in the first one, and missed some opportunities for Border Village/other stuff in the third. (And those are just the mistakes I noticed). That being said, you'd think that by the time you get to 5000 you at least have basic opening strategy down.

Secondly, some strategy advice. I would have thought that it would be advice for beginners, but it turns out that it's advice for players with ratings up to about 5000. So, three things come to mind from this game which may be useful to players of all skill levels. One: Don't base Market Square on a one-time trash. It's just not a good idea. Two: $3P is a value which you miss about 30% of the time (IIRC) on a Potion/Silver opening. Trying to get $4P on turn 3/4 is even harder and $6P is almost impossible. If the goal of your potion is to get a Golem or Possession, don't open with it. Three: Cursing is good. Really good. Even with trashing in the game, if you're trashing curses you aren't trashing your starting cards. You want to open with Cursing if you can and get it ASAP if you can't.

There, that's a bunch of ranting and rage which I needed to share, but which may or may not be of any interest to anyone.

Game Reports / One of the weirder decks I've built
« on: June 22, 2013, 12:47:28 pm »
I can now say that I have bought Vagrant over Silver! :D

I open 5/2 so I go for Mystic/Vagrant with the idea being that when Vagrants fail, Mystics can draw cards. I probably should have picked up a Remake earlier, and I think a Haggler might have also helped, but I still did reasonably well thanks to my 8 Mystics. And, in the early game I preferred Vagrant to Silver.

Guilds Previews / Playing with Guilds cards
« on: June 07, 2013, 11:15:32 am »
Last night, my brother and I played a game in which we used some substitutes to represent Baker and Doctor. The rest of the set was Hunting Party, Haven, Baron, Bridge, Ironworks, Shanty Town, Scout and Philosopher's Stone. I got a $2/$5 and opened Haven/Hunting Party, saving my token to even out later purchases. My brother opened $4/$3, but used his token on the first hand to overpay for Doctor by $2 (trashing Estate/Copper) and then trashed 3 Coppers on turn 2 with Doctor. I then built into a Hunting Party + Baron strategy while my brother tried to go for Bakers and Bridges to get a mega-turn. It didn't work out and I won.

Dominion Articles / Caravan
« on: June 01, 2013, 01:58:53 pm »
I looked at the wiki and saw that Caravan didn't have an article so now it does. Feedback wanted!

   Caravan is a good card. Itís consistently in the top ten $4s on Qvistís ranking, and if you look at the stats on Councilroom, you can see that most players have noticed it: it has been gained by 89.4 % of all decks which could have gained it. It also leads to quick games. Its average game length of 19.20 turns comes in behind only Governor and Wharf. So, what makes it so good, so fast and intuitive? And if itís so good, whatís going on in the remaining 10.6 % of decks?

Whatís going on with this card?

   On your current turn, Caravan does nothing. It just replaces itself with a new card, leaving you with a 5-card hand and 1 action. Now, if you make the mistake Iíve made several times in RL games and accidentally clean it up immediately after the turn in which you play it, itís just a stupid and pointless card. But of course, the awesomeness happens at the start of next turn, when you draw a card, getting you a 6-card hand with 1 action, as if you had already played a Lab! Since Lab is a good card, this helps explain what makes Caravan good; itís like a Lab but costs $4! So, you can always open with it and itís much more accessible, explaining the slightly faster games than Labís 19.56 turns.

   But Caravan isnít strictly better than Lab because of the fact that itís a duration. Since it stays out, it effectively takes two turns to play Caravan as a Lab. And it misses reshuffles more often because thatís just what durations do. So, in a deck-drawing engine, you play Caravan half as often as Lab, and without deck-drawing you play it just slightly less often do to skipped reshuffles. So, Caravanís main advantage over Lab is the fact that it costs $4 rather than $5 which is a pretty significant advantage in accessibility. This comes because not only is $4 significantly easier to hit than $5, but also because cards which gain up to $4 are more common than those which gain $5+ cards. For instance, Caravan is a great target for Talisman. This accessibility increase makes it easier to add extra Caravans to your deck when you're in the greening phase and maintain reliability. That being said, Caravan becomes a little less useful in the late-game as making next turn big becomes less important when you may not even have a next turn. Also, an important point about Caravan management is to figure out how many you actually want at the start of a given turn and not autoplay all of them. If a you can reliably draw your deck with a 7 card hand, but not with 6, and you have 4 Caravans in your deck, you should try to play 2 each turn, and not split them 3-1.

        However, if your deck is built around fishing for a specific megaturn combo like King's Court/Bridge, or a Horn of Plenty deck, you might find yourself wanting one super turn over reliability. This is where clumping your Caravans for a single turn can actually be useful.

What about the 10.6 %?

   Now, this is the point where with something like Explorer Iíd spend a long time telling you about the few cases where you actually want it. But people seem to understand when they want Caravan so instead Iíll tell you that the 10.6 % of players may have had a good reason to skip it. Caravan is worth picking up in all the cases where you want Labs; that is anytime you want non-terminal drawing in your deck. In an engine deck there are two main cases where you donít want non-terminal draw; Menagerie and cards which draw up to a fixed handsize. Drawing extra cards will make Menagerie less likely to activate, and will make cards like Library and Watchtower draw fewer cards.

   In non-engine decks, there are two more cases where you probably donít want Caravan. In terminal-draw BM, any cantrip will likely just get in the way of your terminal draw card. And in slogs, you probably have a low action density, so while Caravans still help cycle your deck, there are likely more appealing actions to purchase, knowing that you have a lower risk of terminal collisions.

        Also of note with Caravan is that while it's often good, it's not usually great, making opportunity cost a big part of deciding to get it. There are many Villages and decent terminals at $4 that you might rather want - especially if you have a card like Caravan letting you draw your deck every turn.

Works with
Cards that like big handsizes (eg.Baron, Trashers, particularly Trash for Benefit.)
A few key terminals that you want to play as many times as possible (eg. Monument)
Gainers (eg. Workshop, Talisman, Ironworks)
Decks which need a bit of extra reliability

Doesnít work with
ďDraw up toĒ cards (eg. Library, Watchtower)
Terminal-draw BM
Slogs (if thereís a better card at $4 or less to buy)

Forum Games / MOVED: Anyone want to play Blokus?
« on: May 21, 2013, 12:20:46 pm »
This topic has been moved to Non-Mafia Game Threads.

Help! / I just don't know.
« on: May 20, 2013, 11:31:32 am »
What did I do wrong here? It seemed like my strategy should work, but I could never seem to get GMs and then the game was over.

Non-Mafia Game Threads / Blokus I
« on: May 20, 2013, 03:46:50 am »
I have now created a version of the spreadsheet for the ongoing game, and one as a publicly available template for anyone who wants to start their own game.

We're almost ready to play, when we are, here are my suggestions for how to do this:
1. 24 hour turns. We decide a turn order, and then when you make your move, post here to say that you've taken your turn. The next player should try to move within 24 hours.
2. Taking turns: Currently all the pieces are made by recolouring cells. There may be a more efficient way, but I'm not sure if there is one. To take your turn, colour the appropriate cells on the board, and on your pieces list make it clear that you no longer have that piece.
3. Rules: I'm assuming everyone knows how to play, I haven't been able to find a pdf of the rules, but if someone does, please tell me. I need to double-check how scoring works, but I can use my physical copy for that.
4. Honour system: Don't move other peoples' pieces. You're a jerk if you do.

Playing (in order):
gman314 (Blue)
Xeiron (Green)
Archetype (Yellow)
TINAS (Pink)

Goko Dominion Online / Really weird bug.
« on: May 20, 2013, 02:28:21 am »
I just ended up in a weird scenario where I seemed to be flicking between two games at the same time. I had to resign both. :(

Game Reports / A cool game
« on: May 18, 2013, 12:21:57 pm »
Just played an awesome 3P game on goko which had some cool stuff going on.

My plan:

Mercenary helps deal with the Curses that Familiar gives out, and Familiar helps get a Mercenary. Apothecary and Grand Market seem to be a little opposed, but you can use Apothecary to get lots of Coppers to Trash with a Mint purchase. With the short-term Apothecaries, Death Cart lets you get rid of them once you're done, and also provides some help getting GMs (Although you probably want a GM to give you extra buys for that +$5.) So, my plan: Open Potion/Silver, get a Familiar ASAP, get an Urchin, get Apothecaries with Potion hands, and trash a lot of Copper on a Mint Purchase. Once you have a couple of Apothecaries, get a Death Cart to clear them out.

The Execution:
I open Potion/Silver, get a Familiar, Urchin and some Apothecaries, but then start thinking "Do I really want Silver at $3? I should get a Wishing Well." I get one and remember that Apothecary/Wishing Well is a thing and so even though I get a Death Cart, I really don't use it that much. Instead, my Apothecaries turn Wishing Well's into Labs. I get a lucky Mercenary gain, and use it to trash the incoming curses, and get GMs. Once I have GMs, the ball's rolling, and I draw my deck every turn with Wishing Well thanks to Apothecary.

Dominion General Discussion / gman314 rating system :D
« on: May 14, 2013, 01:09:48 pm »
Dissatisfaction with the Goko ratings, as well as (and quite frankly, more importantly than) my own personal interest in artificially putting myself at the top of anything I feel like artificially putting myself at the top of has led to me developing my own system, which I am here calling the gman314 system. It works for games with any number of players, and I feel no obligation to keep separate ratings anyway, as under this rating system the game is pretty much the same with any number of players!

I'm not going to divulge all the particular formulae, at least yet. But if at some point such formulae exist, I'll totally divulge them. I may want to patent the system, but really, who would patent a system based on assigning random numbers to people. Having said that, I'm doing a ton of stuff, that's super groundbreaking from the conceptual level: I'm rating players on how closely their strategy matches the strategy that I would use. So I will explain the basic tenets of the system here. I will definitely not show you how to figure out your expected win% in any matchup, since my system doesn't tell you anything at all about that.

Also, feel free to ask me whatever questions about thing you don't understand (i.e. Why did my this number do this after that happened? Or why is this a bigger difference than that?)

There are three numbers you're going to see that are associated with each player.
ID - this is an integer that lets me identify you in the system. It has no statistical significance, and doesn't even really help at all. It just lets me continue parodying WW's system and makes this system look more scientific than it really is.

Rating- this is the big important number to look at. After every game, I will re-evaluate your rating. If you followed my approach for the board, your rating will go up; if you didn't it will go down. How MUCH it moves is dependent on a few different things. One is how close to me you've performed in the past (which is based on your rating). The more like me you typically play, the fewer points you can gain, and the more you can lose, and vice versa. Exactly how much your rating actually moves is dependent on the my whim. If I'm feeling in an enginey mood, engines will make your rating go up more than normal, and BM will make your rating go up less than normal. (Assuming, in either case, that your approach was similar to mine).

Uncertainty - this is a completely random and useless number. It tells us absolutely nothing. *It is not a standard deviation* It changes a lot. First, every time I change your rating, I give you a new random and likely irrational number as an uncertainty. Second, like your rating, it depends on my whim. Since each game gives us more information, playing a game will *generally* make the uncertainty decrease. However, depending on the kind of mood I'm in, it may do whatever the heck I want it to do. Also, it's DEFFINITELY possible for you to get arbitrarily large uncertainties this way.

Now some notes on the actual numbers you're going to see. Your rating for each game will be somewhere between 0 and 100, depending on what arbitrary percentage I assign to you based on how well your strategy matches mine. Then, your overall rating will be an average of your ratings for every rated game, with weightings favoring games which I feel are particularly awesome. Obviously, my rating will be 100% with an uncertainty of 0% because clearly I will do exactly what I would do in any given game.

Win% = I_have_no_clue, where _ is basically just a space, but this way it's a single variable. Of course, this "formula" was only included to further parody the gman314 rating system.

As you can see, only my whim has any significance.

Please note that right now, there is no systemic first player advantage. When playing any given game, I could end up with either player, so clearly I could adopt any strategy I choose from any seat.

I should note that the system has never had a practical test - this will be the first. But really, it's not going to change based on this.

Anyway, here's what I would like for you guys to do:
Sign up for the system. I will give you an ID. Every day (I will try to do this in the mornings), I will update the rating list with the games from the previous day. What that means I need from you guys is the results. In order for this to work in a way that doesn't make me pull my remaining hair out of my head, I am going to need it formatted particularly:
ID1 ID2 Log

Where ID1 and ID2 are the IDs of the players in whatever order you feel like putting them in. Log is a link to the game log so that I can see your approaches and the board.

Please note the spaces between the 3 quantities here. They are absolutely non-essential. You can totally lack these spaces, and you can definitely have other spaces, EXCEPT that that might mix up your IDs for me.

The easiest way I think to do this will be to put the results in a Google Doc Spreadsheet. I'll set one of these up, and when you sign up, I can PM you the link to it.


I may have some busy days where I can't input the ratings right away, but it doesn't really matter, because this rating doesn't tell you anything.

Also, you can probably expect about a day's worth of lag between signing up and being 'active', i.e. having your name appear in the list and me getting the google doc stuff to you.

This rating system is a complete joke and satire of the WW system. It means absolutely nothing.

Variants and Fan Cards / Some cards
« on: May 12, 2013, 05:39:47 pm »
My two brothers and I just played a game before which we decided to each choose a card we came up with to play with and choose the other 7 at random. So, the kingdom was: Menagerie, Fishing Village, Horse Traders, Jester, Trading Post, Hunting Party, Philosopher's stone and our three creations; Trade Agreement, Road Block, and Fund.

Here are the cards:

Trade Agreement
$4 Action
+1 Buy
The player to your left reveals their hand. Choose one of the revealed cards and move the Trade Token to that cardís supply pile. While the Trade Token remains on that pile, all cards from that pile cost 1 less, but not less than 0.
Setup: Place the Trade Token on the Provinces pile.

This was my idea, and it was a little weak. It's main value to me was for the +$2 in my Menagerie deck which liked the extra name. I think to play with it again, I would make the moving of the Trade Token optional, or not restrict it based on the hand of the player to the left. The token never really moved where I wanted it to. Another idea I might consider would be to make an opposite card, which makes everything cost $1 more.

Road Block
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Place a road block token on any supply pile without a road block token. When you gain a card from a pile with a road block token set it aside. After you next reshuffle, put it in your discard pile.

This was one of my brothers' creations, and he made it his quest to Road Block everything except the victory cards. It really didn't do much, because you just bought blocked cards you needed if you needed them. However, I would like to try a few things with it. I would make it a one shot, or make it do something for your deck, or maybe be +1 Card, +1 Action, You may trash a card from your hand. If you do ..... Any of these might make it more interesting. I would also like to try playing with it in a game with some brutal attacks like Ghost Ship to see if it helps slow the game down more.

The card also had a weird issue with cards which gain things to places other than your discard pile. My brother wanted gaining to hand or gaining to top of deck to override Road Block, but I'm not sure how to word that. I think that the road block should still delay them, but then place them in your discard pile anyways. Thoughts?

$6 - Treasure-Duration
Now and at the start of your next buy phase, $2.

This was probably the best card we tried, although it might be a little powerful. The brother who came up with this played a strategy based on Hunting Party and this card, and had at least $4 from these guys basically every turn.

So, any thoughts?

Game Reports / Province for $11
« on: May 04, 2013, 12:37:12 pm »

This was a pretty interesting game, not in terms of strategy but in terms of modifying your strategy. With no village other than Nobles, I didn't want to go for any sort of engine, so my plan was just to get Vault and then go after the Colonies. My opponent started buying a bunch of Nobles to go for an Engine and also picked up a potion. As soon as I saw that my thought was "Must junk deck now!" so on my next turn I bought a Province for $11, with the idea that Vault would help me rush Provinces while junking my deck to make his Possession turns worse. It worked! My deck could only help him build his engine a bit more and try to get a couple of Colonies because my Province lead kept him from buying Provinces.

Game Reports / Well then.
« on: April 22, 2013, 02:36:23 pm »
I think this is the first time I've gotten all 8 Provinces in a game where I didn't go for an engine and wasn't playing a bot.

Game Reports / Zaps!
« on: April 18, 2013, 09:28:19 pm »
Zaps are far too easy to obtain and far too much fun to abuse.

Game Reports / Proof that I really like Rats
« on: April 10, 2013, 12:04:03 am »

I don't think that going for Rats was really all that brilliant here, but hey, it worked!

Other Games / Recommended games
« on: April 04, 2013, 10:59:23 pm »
I'm starting to get going, and I would like to put up a page of "Recommended Games" for aspiring designers. So, what do people think are good games to put on such a list? I'm looking for a variety of themes and mechanics if possible.

Game Reports / Is this an engine board, or not?
« on: February 12, 2013, 01:07:53 am »
This board has all sorts of great engine cards: King's Court, Wharf and Conspirator all jump out. However, there are two things missing: Trashing, which isn't that important and straight +Action. Despite that, I am able to build an engine which squeaks out a win.

Even though I won, I really don't know if Big Money might have been sufficient here. Wharf is good for Big Money and Courtyard is also great. But Colony games tend to turn the advantage to engines. Does anyone else have an opinion?

Dominion General Discussion / Pearl Diver is better than nothing.
« on: February 10, 2013, 07:50:53 pm »
At least when you open with it. In fact, sometimes as an opener it's better than some other power $2s.

I was looking at councilroom's openings list and noticed that Pearl Diver/Trading Post was quite high up. I thought "Well, that's probably just because Trading Post is a good opener." But then the weird thing is that PD/TP is better than TP/-. Pearl Diver is better than nothing.

So, I looked at the list of Pearl Diver openings and then for its top five partners (Trading Post, Mountebank, Witch, Upgrade and Vault) and saw that in all those cases, Pearl Diver was at least slightly better than nothing. But what was really surprising was when PD beat some power $2s. For instance, Mountebank/PD is better than Mountebank/Lighthouse.

So, is Pearl Diver actually a decent opener, or is this just because of the curiosities of statistics?

Dominion General Discussion / Random city question
« on: January 28, 2013, 07:29:15 pm »
Sometimes people refer to "level 2 cities." When you make this reference, what are you referring to? Do cities start at level 1 or level 0?

Game Reports / I think Scout was useful here!
« on: January 27, 2013, 07:06:15 pm »

I base my deck around Minion, use Steward for some trashing, use Feast to get Minions faster and pick up Scout on a bad turn. The Scout helped me improve my current turn, because the top 4 cards are the ones that I would draw with Minion.

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